henry6, I AGREE with you!
There are beautiful people and ugly people. Clothes are a leverler and hide warts and appendectojy scars and other body blemishes. If I were still 22 or even 35 I might not be upset to be seen naked. But at 79i I will keep my clothes on, thank you.
Because God didn't make our skin lime green with reflective material?
BaltACD Which brings up the other conundrum - If we are formed in God's image - why is it considered obscene to be seen in our native form of God's image?
Which brings up the other conundrum -
If we are formed in God's image - why is it considered obscene to be seen in our native form of God's image?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann Maybe in another 30 years, everyone will be naked. I better switch to a profession with a more attractive fanbase....
Maybe in another 30 years, everyone will be naked.
I better switch to a profession with a more attractive fanbase....
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
No further comment.
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Henry6: If you actually read my comment, it was based on your dismissive comments on this thread and another that people today show no pride in their appearance, etc. because they don't dress the way folks did in 40's and 50's. Being well-groomed and neat is a sign of self-respect, pride and respect for others. But you made the contention "there was a sense of pride and self respect when so dressed as opposed to when we began dressing in slacks and jeans." Whether one dresses in a suit, sport coat, morning coat, tux or a powdered wig is merely a function of the customs of the times, not one's regard for self, work or others. For example, 1814: Mr. Jefferson was dressed in shoes of very thin soft leather with pointed toes and heels ascending in a peak behind, with grey worsted stockings, corduroy small clothes, blue waistcoat and coat, of stiff thick cloth made of the merino wool and badly manufactured, the buttons of his coat and small clothes of horn, and under waistcoat flannel bound with red velvet." Even by the standards of the poorly dressed Thomas Jefferson, the outfits worn by men in the 1950's would have appeared far too casual and unsuitable.
But apparently you are stuck in the past and thus are dismissive of those living in the present.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
It's not just appearance, it' s also attitude. A few years ago I was on the "Maple Leaf" and eastbound out of Rochester I go to the cafe to buy a beer. He hands it to me, surly ***; then as I walk away he yells "YO,YO,YO! what do you call this?" and grabs the bottle out of my hand! What did I give him? A Canadian dime. Did this guy not realize that the train started in Toronto and people are going to have small change from there? What the hell did he want? A traveler's cheque? Now when I go to New York, I fly on Porter Airways. They act like they want your business and they've got mine. I'll reserve my train riding for Canada and Europe, thank you very much.
schlimm I was referring to henry's contemptuous contention, not to the notion of casual, but neat, and well-groomed, I should add. When i was a kid, almost everyone, not just those on business trips, dressed in suits or at least a sport coat with tie, though Ivy Leaguers often wore khakis or jeans with a tweed sport coat.
I was referring to henry's contemptuous contention, not to the notion of casual, but neat, and well-groomed, I should add. When i was a kid, almost everyone, not just those on business trips, dressed in suits or at least a sport coat with tie, though Ivy Leaguers often wore khakis or jeans with a tweed sport coat.
I resent my remarks being considered "contemptuous" and your attitude toward them and me. I am older than you, evidently, and things were different then than they are today...not "contemptuous" but of a different time. If you have seen pictures of railfan trips from the 30's anf 40's and all the riders were in suits, ties, and hats...that's not "contemptuous" by any means. And, yes, we were required to wear shirts and ties in secluded radio studios through the 60's and 70's...better than the tux's required in the 30's and 40's! Plus, many of my contemporaries would agree that there was a sense of pride and self respect when so dressed as opposed to when we began dressing down to slacks and jeans, no ties, and on into the tee shirt generation. If you can't understand that, then, you'll never understand but you don't denegrate and make such statements....I wonder if, in fact, you are not contemptious of pride, self respect, and class.
Sam1, I agree with you. There is such a thing as being neat even when wearing blue jeans and a sport shirt. I wonder what excuse, if any, the employees you noted had for sloppy dress and soiled clothing.
I think of the Pullman Company's attire regulations for its conductors; they were quite strict, with exception to the general regulations for conductors on the trains to/from Atlantic City (Trains, May 1972, p. 41, and December 1976, p. 25).
Johnny
Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, indeed most of the people in the company that I worked for, dressed in what I call business casual. They were neat. The problem that I lifted up in my opening to this thread is that the Amtrak employees that I encountered were, well, sloppy. I would be happy to see Amtrak employees dressed in business casual. But they should be neat, i.e. shirts tucked in or worn properly, not to mention clean and without soup stains.
Like so many of our discussions, I think this one should not be thought of in "black and white" terms.
As a senior in high school, I organized our senior class' "grad night" trip to Disneyland. In those days, the Disney team closed the park to the public early, and opened it up all night long exclusively to groups of high school seniors. The point of the story: they had a dress code! Guys had to wear a coat & tie (not at all common amongst the younger set in the 70's!). When I asked why, they said that, it had been their experience that people behaved better when they were dressed better.
Now, for some, self-image influences, or is influenced by, dress. For others, not so much.
But,right or wrong, when you are dealing with the public, I think most would agree that good-looking "uniform" (even if it is only a suit-&-tie) makes a good impression. It may well influence how people look upon the service. Gates & Jobs could let their technical accomplishments reflect who they were -- Amtrak employees don't generally have that luxury.
So by that logic, individuals like Bill Gates and the late Steve Jobs had little self respect, "let a lot of things slide" and were "just sloughing [sic! I don't think you meant to use that word which refers to casting off dead skin, along with a particular form of intercourse] along til dinner time and the weekend." Wonder if they could have done something worthwhile with their lives if they'd worn a suit?
henry6 zugmann: henry6: You may note that Congressmen wear suits while teachrs often jeans and tee shirts....hmmm.... You make a great case for not wearing suits! That was the "...hmmmm...."
zugmann: henry6: You may note that Congressmen wear suits while teachrs often jeans and tee shirts....hmmm.... You make a great case for not wearing suits! That was the "...hmmmm...."
henry6: You may note that Congressmen wear suits while teachrs often jeans and tee shirts....hmmm....
You may note that Congressmen wear suits while teachrs often jeans and tee shirts....hmmm....
You make a great case for not wearing suits!
That was the "...hmmmm...."
Sorry, I'm a little slow today. Should have worn my suit.
zugmann henry6: You may note that Congressmen wear suits while teachrs often jeans and tee shirts....hmmm.... You make a great case for not wearing suits! That was the "...hmmmm...."
henry6 You may note that Congressmen wear suits while teachrs often jeans and tee shirts....hmmm....
One's self respect and pride is what I am talking about....and the attending attitude toward oneslef and what he is doing. We are in a very informal society...and with that informality we let a lot of things slide because we are not at attention but just sloughing along til dinner time and the weekend. You may note that Congressmen wear suits while teachrs often jeans and tee shirts....hmmm....
Wait a minute! The other day you included Teachers in your put-down of lawyers and bankers! Today, you are ready to be impressed mightily by bankers because they wear suits?!? What is it, exactly, that bankers "understand," and what "line" are they holding?
I bet Bernie Madoff wore a very expensive suit every day.
"Commodore" Cornelius Vanderbilt himself would have said of suits as an emblem of worthiness, "That means nothing."
Or, as another writer put it, "Put not your trust in princes."
henry6 One of the things I noticed in myself. When wearing a suit, shirt, and tie, there is a certain pride,confidence, and spirit missing than when "dressed down". I have also observed it in others. But when entering an automobile showroom and a buch of guys and gals (not men and women) dressed in jeans and golf shirts attack me, I am not impressed with their not caring enough about themselves so as to put their best foot...and properly atired body...forward. So far bankers seem to understand this and are holding the line. But the day I walk into my bank or credit union and all ar in jeans and tee shirts is the day they lose my accounts!
One of the things I noticed in myself. When wearing a suit, shirt, and tie, there is a certain pride,confidence, and spirit missing than when "dressed down". I have also observed it in others. But when entering an automobile showroom and a buch of guys and gals (not men and women) dressed in jeans and golf shirts attack me, I am not impressed with their not caring enough about themselves so as to put their best foot...and properly atired body...forward. So far bankers seem to understand this and are holding the line. But the day I walk into my bank or credit union and all ar in jeans and tee shirts is the day they lose my accounts!
Funny.. I have the opposite reaction. If I go to a dealer and someone in a suit and tie comes my way, I just think "oh great....". If someone is trying to impress me with what he is wearing, I get concerned.
Must be a generational thing.
dakotafred Younger people may accuse me of old-age grouchiness, but I think theirs is the problem, not mine.
Younger people may accuse me of old-age grouchiness, but I think theirs is the problem, not mine.
Yeah, I will.
I only own one suit, and I wore it once. Sorry, but a suit and tie do not impress me. Want to sell me a car? Then treat me like a potential buyer, even if I am not dressed up. Impress me with your knowledge - not your dress.
But if you are a member of a passenger crew - then there are rules regarding dress and appearance. It if a condition of your employment to follow those rules. So no excuse for sloppiness there. Makes me glad I'm a freight guy.
There are caps and caps. When I was scoring baseball and softball games for the local chldren's leagues, I wore a baseball cap--and when I was working on the Building and Ground Crew at my college, I wore one.
But, even for my everyday wear as well as when traveling, I wear what is known as a "driving cap," which is a bit different from a baseball cap.
Alas, slobbism is rampant in our society. I remember when a trip by coach on a train called for a suit and tie, never mind your economic class. Today people dress like they're going camping. There is also sprawling of gear over adjacent seats that no self-respecting conductor would have put up with in the old days. The bottom line for me is that, if I can't book a small bedroom when I need to go, and at a price I can afford, I drive.
I appreciate Henry's distinction between hats and caps. We definitely crossed a subtle line when men forsook the one for the other. These days, wearers of either are seldom smart enough to remove them indoors -- in restaurants, for instance.
My experience when traveling on the Coast Starlight has been quite different. The "crew" seemed to take great pride in all aspects of their jobs. They went out of there way to be helpful and kind and always had time for questions, etc. It may be that the Starlight is one of there finest trains, I don't know. I do know that when I take the Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle there is a marked change of attitude of the "crew" when it becomes the Texas Eagle and they seem to be both bored and somewhat lazy. My thoughts as to why was that they were based out of Chicago where as those out of LA were better trained. I don't really know, just my random thoughts!
Ahhh, if it were only Amtrak conductors who lack this self respect and pride as it is in all parts of our "working class" be it manual labor or even sales. Go into a new car sales room today and unless the boss bought them all golf shirts with his name on them, you can't tell the sales staff from the buyers! How far back do you want to go? In the 40's pics of our ancestoral brethren aboard fan trips are all sporting shirts, ties, and hats (not caps). I've been in Madison Avenue offices where all, including Vice Presidents, don jeans and denim shirts. America is certainly a classless society. We must find a way over all to return pride in our society, our place in society, and in the jobs we perform and in understanding we represent ourselves as well as our employers.
Recently I made several trips on Amtrak in the Northeast Corridor. More than a few of the on-board train personnel, i.e. train persons, conductors, etc., didn't seem to take much pride in their appearance. One conductor looked like a slob, e.g. shirt tail hanging out, tie undone, uniform food stains, and significantly over weight.
Amtrak has some great employees. But many of them don't seem to take much pride in their work and themselves.
I grew up in Altoona, which was a crew change point for the 38 daily passenger trains that passed through Altoona when I was in high school. Many of my friends fathers were passenger conductors and trainmen. They took noticeable price in their work and their appearance. I don't see that in Amtrak's employees, but maybe I am over reacting to a few bad apples.
I would be interest in hearing what others have to say regarding this issue.
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