New York City Railroad System

[daveklepper]

Correct as far as it goes.  Most PRR passenger trains into New York discharged all their passengers at Pennsylvania Station, used one of the East River tubes, and then terminated their runs at Sunnyside Yard, near Harold Tower in Queens.   PRR trains providing though service to New England points, most of them originating in Washington, changed from GG-1 power to New Haven EP-3, EP-4, or EP-5 power at Penn Station, dropped their PRR crews, picked up NYNH&H crews, and then were officially New Haven trains, usually with the same train number as PRR used.  They used PRR owned tracks through the tunnel to Harold Tower, then entered the tracks of the New York Connecting Railroad, joining the NYNH&H Harlem River branch in the South Bronx, and the NYNH&H main line at Shell Tower, New Rochelle, New York.  All trains did one or the other of these two procedures, except for many MU commuter trains which simply changed ends, loaded passengers, and went back out to New Jersey.   These usually used the low-numbered platform tracks on the south side of the station, some of which were stub ended without connection to the East River tunnels.   (Not sure if this is still the case.)

[RoyPBower]

Hey Folks,

I read Conquering Gotham and what I get is this: PRR trains crossed from New jersey under the Hudson and then into Penn Station then out to Long Island via another set of tunnels. Then above ground to Hell Gate Bridge and over to the mainland to connect with the NYNH&H. Right?

[blue streak 1]

dave: good summary put all very clearly

[daveklepper]

Facts:  The Hudson and Manhattan was always an independent company.   It constructed four single-track tunnels under the Hudson River, one for the uptown line terminating first at 33rd Street and 6th Avenue, but cut back to 32nd Street when the 6th Avenue Suvway was constructed in the early 1940"s (without renaming the station, still called "33rd"), and the downtown pair leading to the Hudson Terminal Staiton, renamed World Trade Center, and still called that today, even after 11.09.01.  Both the downtown line and the uptown line had and still have trains to both Hoboken, at the Lackawanna Terminal, and to Journal Suare Jersey City, which was also served by a Newark - Jersey City Ferry ("Exchange Place") electgrified branch of the PRR.  A joint traffic arrangement was made, and third rail added to the Jersey City - Newark branch west of Journal Square, a separate Park Street elevated terminal constructed by PRR for these trains in Newark, and a new higher speed series of cars, half owned by PRR and half owned by H&M, purchased for a separete Hudson Terminal - Newark service, crewed by both railroads.   10-cent dime turnstyle fares were the rule east of Journal Square, but a separate ticket required between Journal Square and Newark.   Across the platform transfer to PRR through trains was established at Manhattan transfer, the location where PRR E-6, G-5, and K-4's (most typically) were exchanged for third rail DD-1's for the trips to and from Manhattan.   The New York subways, (in general), H&M, PRR, and LIRR all used the same standard third rail configuration.   The Trenton - Sunnyside Yard/Harold electrification changed the trackage complete, with the Park St. terminal abandoned, Manhattan Transfer removed, and the new Newark Penn Station built to serve both the PRR and the H&M --- and the Lehigh Vally as well.  On the other side, New Haven steam trains, and then electrics, changed power at Harold Tower (adjecent to but not inside) for DD-1's to Penn Station.   All tunnels in and out of Penn Station were owned by PRR. but those on the east were also used by the New Haven and the LIRR.   The two single track PRR Hudson River tunnels and the four signle track East River tunnels all were originally third rail only, but the H&M  never used them.   Indeed, the equpment of the H&M, and the PRR cars for the through service, were smaller and narrower and capable of going around much sharper curves than normal rr equipment, similar in size to CTA equipment.

After the Port Authority took over the H&M, they also purchased the PRR passenger line tracks from JOurnal Square west to Newark.   The catanary was removed when the trackage was rebuilt.

The line from Harold Tower, the junction of what was Long Island Railroad owned track, everything to the east, PRR track, everything to the West, to the north end of the Hell Gate Bridge, which is between northwest Queens and the Bronx, the only non-subway rail link between Long Island and the mainland, was built and owned by the New York Connecting Railroad, a company jointly owned by PRR and the NYNH&H.  It never had third rail, was electrified around 1931, and then after the Trenton - Sunnyside\Harold electrification was completed, New Haven electrics could operate through to Penn Station.  (I believe some also did before, using the third rail, but apparently this was only on special occasions, and usually third rail DD-1's did the honor west of Harold Tower.

 Today, Amtrak owns all the property previously owned by PRR, New Haven, and New YOrk Connecting in this area, except for Journal Square - Newark which is owned by PATH.   PATH also owns all ex-H&M property.  The LIRR is owned by New York State's Metropolitan Transportation Authority, but I am quite sure that the tunnels under the East River are owned by Amtrak, unless two of them have been transferred to the LIRR.   There is some flexibility in usage of the paired tunnels, and both LIRR and Amtrak (and New Jersey Transit which is strictly a tentant) have access to all, but usual practice is to keep LIRR trains in the two northern tunnels and Amtrak and New Jersey Transit in the two southern tunnels.

 

Operation in the former H&M tunnels isn't much different than it was under H&M, but it an all PATH operation now with one fare system covering all its stations.

[RoyPBower]

Thanks! I went out and bought it and am really enjoying it. I haven't gotten far enough to know if it answers my question or not. Roy

[MILW205]

This may not 100% address your question, but check out the book Conquering Gotham by Jill Jonnes.  IMHO it's a quite interesting read about the history / whole process of the Pennsy achieving access into Manhattan.

[Awesome!]

http://www.hobokenterminal.com/index.html

Check this other website for info...

[henry6]

http://www.mta.info/nyct/.

 

Official subway site....will also lead you to MNRR, LIRR, SIRR, and NJT as needed and linked.

[al-in-chgo]

The New Jersey map is another huge PDF:

http://www.richegreen.com/NJTV4.pdf

You'll be scratching your head, but ask questions and we'll explain.

On the theory that it doesn't hurt to be told no, several months ago I e-mailed NJT and asked for a hard copy of their system map.  They sent it right out! 

Now I'm saving my pennies to get it framed. The map is a "bleed," no border at all.  But I like the black background. 

al

 

[timz]

The New Jersey map is another huge PDF:

http://www.richegreen.com/NJTV4.pdf

You'll be scratching your head, but ask questions and we'll explain.

[al-in-chgo]

I google'd for "New York City Subways" (with the quotation marks) some months ago and was given this link to a site that has been very helpful to me:  

NYC Subway Resources

Ever wondered about the artwork scattered throughout the subway? Here's a list of over 125 artworks in New York City Subway Stations. ... www.nycsubway.org/ - 14k - Cached - Similar pages

Nycsubway dot org is not part of the official MTA site(s), though it has links to sites like Subway, Subway Gift Shop, LIRR and Metro-North.  It is a fan's site of pretty much professional quality and has helped me look up trivia, compare new names to old, etc.   Lots of pix too FWIW. 

I don't know if anyone maintains a multi-layer map incl. the new bores toward Penn Station, all subways, PATH, commuter, etc., but IMO it's well worth a try!  It's my experience that nycsubway dot org's links work well.  - Cheers!  - al

 

[timz]

Can you download huge PDFs? If so, take a look at

 http://www.richegreen.com/NYCTrackMapV3.pdf

He did one for the New Jersey side too but I don't find it yet. They're a bit much for your purposes, but we'll clarify them after you take a look.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The Hudson & Manhattan was always independent and never a PRR subsidiary.  You're probably confused by the "joint trackage" arrangement in which H&M and later PATH ran over PRR trackage between Journal Square and Newark.

The bridge owned by the New York Connecting RR and the body of water over which it passes is the Hell Gate.

[gardendance]

I'm sure there must be many web sites and books for you. As to your specific questions:

the PATH tunnels are old Pennsylvania tunnels, or at least tunnels for an old Pennsylvania subsidiary, Hudson and Manhattan RR Re: The new PATH World Trade Center Station and the the Hudson Tubes..., but they are not the ones Amtrak uses. Rather they are the ones that PATH itself uses. There are 6 rail tubes under the Hudson. From south to north they are: 2 PATH from Jersey City to the World Trade Center, downtown Manhattan; 2 PATH from Hoboken to just south of Greenwich Village, maybe they call that SoHo, I'm not too familiar with the NYC neighborhood's name, then pretty much north up 6th Ave to 33rd St; 2 AMTRAK, former Pennsylvania from Secaucus-Weehawken? to Penn Station, 33rd St and 7th Ave.

My opinion is that they're 3 tunnels, but I've usually heard them counted as 6 tubes, sometimes even 6 tunnels. That's a bit of a railroad conceit, since a single track tunnel could be both directions, so we count 2 tracks in 2 different tubes as 2 instead of 1. But for highway we usually count it as 1, so the Holland Tunnel and the Lincoln Tunnel are 1 tunnel each, even though they're 2 tubes each.

A train entering Manhattan from say Newark, go through New York Penn, then out to let's say New Haven would it go through both Sunnyside Yard and then by way of the Hell's Gate bridge. As an aside, Long Island RR trains, which originate in Penn Station, go through their own set of 2 tubes under the East River, through Sunnyside Yard and then onward through Long Island. Amtrak-Pennsylvania RR - New Haven RR has separate tubes under the East River, and after Sunnyside make a left turn to get to the Hell Gate bridge. I'm not sure if it's Hell's Gate or Hell Gate. Also there might have been some other entity that actually owned the connecting railroad from somewhere east of Penn Station to somewhere in or west of New Rochelle, rather than straight Pennsy or New Haven ownership in the old days, but I'm not sure. Does it matter?

Trains coming down the old NYC Hudson line get to Penn Station via an old NYC line that goes down the west side of Manhattan. Some other threads which discuss this line: Amtrak's West Side Connection / Superliners

Re: NYC RR routes onto Manhattan Island.

 

There is now no connection between Penn and GCT. It's an idea that's often been kicked around.

[RoyPBower]

Hello,

Can anyone direct me to a web site or book which explains the different systems, routings, connections and stations in New York City? I am at a loss as to whether the PATH tunnels are the old Pennsylvania tunnels now operated by Amtrak. What route would a train entering Manhattan from say Newark, go through New York Penn, then out to let's say New Haven? Would it go through Sunnyside Yard and then onward or would it go by way of the Hell's Gate bridge or both? How do trains coming down the old NYC Hudson line get to Penn Station? Is there a connection between Penn and GCT? As you can gather, I am quite ignorant about how it all fits together and would appreciate help.

Thanks,

Roy Bower

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