Amtrak security

[al-in-chgo]

... So ... I wish Amtrak had a route from Charlotte to Chicago.  I haven't been to the Museum of Science & Industry since 1966.

I wish they did too!  Can we blame the Appalachians for part of the lack of a direct route?  IIRC the best way before the very late Sixties to get from Memphis to Knoxville, TN by rail was to route it though Chattanooga, like a huge  "U" bend. That's the way the river systems flowed and thus the major valleys.   So I suppose in the Sixties to get to get from Chi to Atlanta I could have taken IC from Chgo to Memphis, change to a train heading to Birmingham, then change for Atlanta, and then double-back to Charlotte.  Better-informed rail history buffs than I might know the status of any through cars.

That dip around the Appalachians had to be accommodated, until Eye-forty was completed around 1970 and helped tie the "Three Tennessees" into one for highway traffic. Even now, I can't think of any purely E-W RR line that connects Knoxville with Nashville and then Memphis, though of course truckers make great use of the Interstate route.   

There were other ways to get by rail from Chi to Atlanta, but all of them that I know of that accommodated l-d varnish pre-Amtrak (C&O thru Charlottesville, N&W thru Roanoke, VA) have in common running over or though the Cumberland/Allegheny system or the Appalachians, or both.  (Many people define the "Appalachian Mountains" as including the Cumberlands and Alleghenys.)

It's also worth recalling that the lines that accommodated Chicago - Florida passenger trains (like the old South Wind) were never in any respect high-speed lines.  Trains like the Wind didn't even break 40 mph on average speed.  So it isn't like we lost Altoona or Carbondale type service.  Today on an all-passenger routing I'd have to get from Chi to D.C. (the "Capitol Limited", isn't it?) and then take the Crescent on down to Atlanta. Thlat's a huge double-back too, using Washington D.C. as the pivot. 

BTW everyone I know, railfan or not, who has visited our Museum of Science and Industry has LOVED the Zephyr tour.  Other great things too, of course.  Trouble is, it's located kind of out of the way unless one lives or works in the adjacent Hyde Park area, home to the Univ. of Chicago. 

[Here's a pathetic attempt to get back to topic]:  I wonder whether, if I were to take Amtrak to D.C. and then change for the Crescent to Atlanta -- would I have to reclaim my checked luggage and go thru security all over again??

 

Tallly ho!

Best, al

[arkansasrailfan]

Yeah, better watch out for PETA.(bunch of crazies)

[Dakguy201]

Compared to what goes on at any airport I do not find the presence of roving patrols in statons and on platforms offensive, nor do I object to a dog sniffing my bags.  It is a public place, so I have lowered expectations of privacy.   I would welcome that dog at the airport to sniff my feet compared to removing my shoes to be put through the scanner, although the animal cruelty folks might have some objection to a dog being assigned such a duty.

[Phoebe Vet]

... So ... I wish Amtrak had a route from Charlotte to Chicago.  I haven't been to the Museum of Science & Industry since 1966.

[al-in-chgo]

While we probably have stepped over the line, it's hard to discuss paranoid security without some reference to the people who have implemented it.

We have probably beat it to death anyway. Sadly, I doubt we will change any minds.

 

Well, it isn't all THAT terrible.  I for one don't want to be known as a Johnny One-Note and at the risk of being presumptuous I'd guess you feel the same. 

If we have led one or two readers in the direction of George Orwell's 1984, and if it is read not as failed science-fiction but as allegory, we'll have done some good.

 

[Phoebe Vet]

While we probably have stepped over the line, it's hard to discuss paranoid security without some reference to the people who have implemented it.

We have probably beat it to death anyway. Sadly, I doubt we will change any minds.

[al-in-chgo]

It's true that we have been slowly sliding down the slippery slope for a long time, but this administration (& I mean both teams) has just jumped off the cliff.

I'm glad I'm old.  I lived most of my life in the good times.  I feel sorry for my grandchildren.  But then, they probably won't miss it, because they've never had it.  When we began the "war on drugs" and began searching school lockers and backpacks regularly, we began raising an entire generation to believe that it is normal to be searched and spied on by people in authority whenever the mood strikes them.  Now the oldest of those children ARE the people in authority.

  Re: above post (emphasis by al-in-chgo)

I quite agree, and feel also that when kids have no liberties nor freedoms, evading authority becomes the norm.  There must be all kinds of reasons, but apparently the Baby Boomers (of which I am one) shook "the rules" so violently that we left the path open for the past couple of generations.  Perhaps this critique has been going on for generations, but I think the last couple of generations grew up in a moral limbo (I won't say vacuum), in which everything is relative:  cheating on tests is OK if everybody does it, leaving the scene of an accident is OK if you're busy; lying to authority is just fine if it makes one more comfortable -- all of this leading [to get a bit hard-edged and glamourous about it] to the kind of behvior exemplified in high relief in the recent movie Alpha Dog, in which anomic "nice kids from the suburbs" wind up conspiring and/or contributing to murder -- and for no good reason, not even a selfish one.

In fact, anyone out there, if you can stand "M-F-ing" language as rank as Snoop Dogg on speed, IMHO Alpha Dog is a really good movie filled with great performances by a huge cast (incl. Sharon Stone, Bruce Willis, and Justin Timberlake).  People in their forties and fifties are clearly shown as letting their kids run wild; in essence these elders-but-perhaps-no-betters fluff their responsibilities in search of narcissistic horizons all their own.  Result?  Justin Timberlake excels playing a good-times party boy who, apparently having no confidence in his own personality or judgment, puts on a "gangsta" attitude and sets up a series of tragic resuls.  This is based on a real case in Southern California that played out in the late Nineties and early part of this decade.  Alpha Dog is now on DVD BTW IIRC(!).  It's the kind of movie in which "there are no good people" (well, actually a couple, but they don't predominate), but draws a clear moral.  There re many other facets to this remarkable movie, but I really can't do them justice.  

Phoebe Vet, insofar as this thread now discussed partisan politics, it is quite likely to be censored or deleted by bergie or whomever; I'll send you my regular e-mail addess if you'd like to continue this dialog.

al

 

[Phoebe Vet]

It's true that we have been slowly sliding down the slippery slope for a long time, but this administration (& I mean both teams) has just jumped off the cliff.

I'm glad I'm old.  I lived most of my life in the good times.  I feel sorry for my grandchildren.  But then, they probably won't miss it, because they've never had it.  When we began the "war on drugs" and began searching school lockers and backpacks regularly, we began raising an entire generation to believe that it is normal to be searched and spied on by people in authority whenever the mood strikes them.  Now the oldest of those children ARE the people in authority.

[al-in-chgo]

Remember the old days, when Americans had a spine?

 

Well, yes.  I remember being told in high school that some of the joys of being American citizens (besides just having a leg-up on a high standard of living) were --

(1) not being afraid of that "knock on the door" by the authorities in the middle of the light;

(2) never having to worry about a wiretap unless some sort of warrant was in effect;  

(3) not taking political prisoners without cause*; and

(4) no restrictions on exports -- tariffs on imports, perhaps, but no on exports. 

Some of those freedoms were eroding anyway, apparently none of them has survived the Patriot Act. 

____________

* At least a couple of years before 9/11, 60 Minutes reported that there were [are?] several Irish nationalists held in a Boston prison without charge by specific request of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, but that's the only true "throw 'em in the dungeon" situation I can think of.  At least, not without some attempt at Due Process. 

 

[Phoebe Vet]

On that we agree.

I have no problem with security people on patrol.  I also have no problem with searches for cause.  I don't think it's necessary, but I do not find it offensive.

[arkansasrailfan]

Yes, you're right, but how can we tell the difference between the 99% and the 1%? But the searches should be based on suspicion, because random searches is really futile shots in the darks to get the terroists

[Phoebe Vet]

There is nothing political about complaining when the government treats you like a criminal just in case you might be.

When I was a police officer (now retired) we were constantly reminded that 99% of the people with which we came in contact are honest citizens who deserve to be treated with respect.

People have a RIGHT to go about their daily lives without being hassled by government agents.

While it is occasionally necessary to invade that privacy, each individual case must be justified by an articulable reason. Even the cases where a warrant cannot be obtained because of the circumstances, the justification must be the same as what would be required to get the warrant, and court hearings after the fact are available to the person searched or detained where the police officer must be able to justify his actions.

A police officer could not even stop a vehicle on the highway unless he could articulate a reason why he believed the operator was violating the law, or was in some way incapacitated, or where traffic needed to be diverted for safety. Diversion for safety does not constitute authority to search or detain the vehicle or operator.

Unlike you, I value that freedom. It is worth the very minor risk of some criminal activity getting by unnoticed. The simple fact is that you have a greater chance of being struck by lightning than you do of being the victim of a terror attack.

If you are afraid to get on the train (or airplane) until the government background checks and searches every other passenger then, by all means, stay home. I find your desire to have ME searched offensive.

Land of the free and home of the brave no longer seems to apply.

[arkansasrailfan]

I think we're getting to political here. You all are mad a t Amtrak because they are stopping people who might blow up a train. What if they took the checks away, and a terrorist bomber detonated, killing and destroying the train. You all are angry at the govenrment for protecting us from terrorists.

[gardendance]

All this is more scare the public, Homeland Security, Bush hype that is mostly a waste of time & money.

...

 You cannot take the same procedures in place @  NYC and custom fit it for a lil place like Del Rio. What is someone going to attack? The catcus in front of the depot I was standing next to?

example of security measures that are wast of time and money, 30th St Station Phila, and I assume NY Penn Station, Amtrak checks tickets at the top of the stairway on the north side of the concourse, but usually leave the stariway at the south side protected with just a velvet rope, both stairways lead to the same platform.

That was true about 2 years ago, the last time I accompanied anyone to catch a train. She went down the attended north stairway with her ticket, I went down the unattended south stairway so I could kiss her goobye at trainside. All I had to do was unclip the velvet rope and reclip it afterward.

So we have extra personnel being wasted examining tickets at the top of 1 of 2 stairs, but nobody looks at the tickets again until after the train's underway.

And nobody looks at tickets at Trenton, Newark Airport or Newark, and I assume New Carrolton, BWI, Baltimore, Wilmington, New Rochelle, Stamford, Rt 128 or Back Bay, where Amtrak shares platforms with commuter trains. So what enhanced security did we get by making sure the terrorist had a reserved ticket at Union Station DC, but not at BWI? I haven't looked into what these new and improved security measures are, did they fix this loophole, or move the resources for this useless ticket inspecting task to something more effective?

 

[SFbrkmn]

All this is more scare the public, Homeland Security, Bush hype that is mostly a waste of time & money. Outside of the NEC, I really can't see anything of a threat to Amtrk riders. Last month I took a  12 state 5100 mile trip on three long distance trains. I feel as safe on a Amtrk today no more than I did 20 yrs ago. There just isn't a threat there. Outside of more police seen @ the stations in LA and El Paso, the only "Homeland Security" was when #2 stopped in Del Rio--out in the middle of nowhere. A Homeland Security agent boarded the train to make a inspection and we were told by the condr there was gonna be a slght delay account of that. One of the riders on my car was from Marfa and he stated folks in TX are fed up w/all this Homeland Security and wish it would go away. You cannot take the same procedures in place @  NYC and custom fit it for a lil place like Del Rio. What is someone going to attack? The catcus in front of the depot I was standing next to?

[Phoebe Vet]

Remember the old days, when Americans had a spine?

[passengerfan]

As long as I don't get tazered or the sniffing dog does'nt hoist his leg on my bags I can live with whatever security measures they put in place.

[al-in-chgo]

Power is not a means, it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. George Orwell (1903 - 1950)

 

IS IT JUST ME, or are there four void postings above Phoebe Vet's posting? 

allen

 

[Phoebe Vet]

Power is not a means, it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. George Orwell (1903 - 1950)

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

I have that book, and have lent it to several people.

When it was written in 1947, it was a work of fiction, depicting what the world might be like in 1984 if Germany had won WW-II.

It has turned out to be prophesy.  It should be read in school.

It was required reading for my sophmore english class in highschool 10 years ago... Interesting story but thast all it is, a story and 100% fiction at that. The only people who compare the real world to that book spend most there time running around in tinfoil hats 

Any thoughtful person who has read and heard the justifications of the misadventure in Iraq by the current regime in Washington and the actions of the Committee for State Security (DHS to the unknowing) would find a comparison to the world found in the pages of "1984" to be quite apt.

[Mr_Ash]

I have that book, and have lent it to several people.

When it was written in 1947, it was a work of fiction, depicting what the world might be like in 1984 if Germany had won WW-II.

It has turned out to be prophesy.  It should be read in school.

It was required reading for my sophmore english class in highschool 10 years ago... Interesting story but thast all it is, a story and 100% fiction at that. The only people who compare the real world to that book spend most there time running around in tinfoil hats 

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

If I could get the Supreme Court to appoint ME President, that spookey Orwellian Department of Homeland Security would be gone by the end of January.

all in favor?!

Aye!!  Motion carries (I hope)

[AmtrakRider]

I have that book, and have lent it to several people.

When it was written in 1947, it was a work of fiction, depicting what the world might be like in 1984 if Germany had won WW-II.

It has turned out to be prophesy.  It should be read in school.

I find it depressing that 1984 is not read in school.

[Amtrak77]

If I could get the Supreme Court to appoint ME President, that spookey Orwellian Department of Homeland Security would be gone by the end of January.

all in favor?!

[Phoebe Vet]

I have that book, and have lent it to several people.

When it was written in 1947, it was a work of fiction, depicting what the world might be like in 1984 if Germany had won WW-II.

It has turned out to be prophesy.  It should be read in school.

[al-in-chgo]

If I could get the Supreme Court to appoint ME President, that spookey Orwellian Department of Homeland Security would be gone by the end of January.

 

and mega- !!!

But first, as President you ought to make sure the public is educated enough to read Orwell's 1984 for themselves, which to my way of thinking is just as chilling as the first time I read it in the Sixties.  "War Is Peace" "Ignorance is Strength" "Farm-raised salmon are wild" --the third one wasn't said by Orwell. 

[DMUinCT]

  It does NOT scare me, it makes me feel more Secure. 

  A dog snifs your bag as you wait to board.  Something doesn't look right, they may want to check further.

  Most trains are "All Reserved" they already know who you are and if you are a frequent traveler who use and/or enjoy the train.   Remember, the 9/11 highjackers could have been spotted and stopped with what we now know about security.

  The true danger of an attack is to our Economy, it's not to our Passenger trains but disrupting our Freight network.

[DavidBragdon]

Typical American (or more accurately, Bush-era) approach: an expensive, cumbersome exercise that does more to scare the citizenry than address a real problem in an effective manner.  The Europeans and Israelis - who know about true security - think we are ridiculous.

 

[TomDiehl]

The announcement is on the Amtrak website:

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=Amtrak/am2Copy/News_Release_Page&c=am2Copy&cid=1178294112060&ssid=180