CSSHEGEWISCH Sam1 seems to want to overlook the fact that Amtrak is first and foremost a political creation, and as such is often constrained in any attempts to operate as a for-profit business. The existence of the long-distance trains is the price that Amtrak has to pay in order to receive appropriations for the NEC and other corridor-like operations.
Sam1 seems to want to overlook the fact that Amtrak is first and foremost a political creation, and as such is often constrained in any attempts to operate as a for-profit business. The existence of the long-distance trains is the price that Amtrak has to pay in order to receive appropriations for the NEC and other corridor-like operations.
And who is driving the politics? NARP? People such as us? Yes, Amtrak is dictated to by Congress, and Congress, on matters of passenger trains is influenced by who?
I don't see it as a "false dichotomy" of discontinuing long-distance trains. I see it as a question of what gets priority? What gets first claim on new equipment purchases and other resources?
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Paul MilenkovicI don't see it as a "false dichotomy" of discontinuing long-distance trains. I see it as a question of what gets priority? What gets first claim on new equipment purchases and other resources?
Supposing we do make it a question of priority, Paul, and as a result long distance trains are eroded to the point of extinction. How then do we maintain a sufficient national consensus to make short distance trains possible?
Paul Milenkovic CSSHEGEWISCH Sam1 seems to want to overlook the fact that Amtrak is first and foremost a political creation, and as such is often constrained in any attempts to operate as a for-profit business. The existence of the long-distance trains is the price that Amtrak has to pay in order to receive appropriations for the NEC and other corridor-like operations. And who is driving the politics? NARP? People such as us? Yes, Amtrak is dictated to by Congress, and Congress, on matters of passenger trains is influenced by who? I don't see it as a "false dichotomy" of discontinuing long-distance trains. I see it as a question of what gets priority? What gets first claim on new equipment purchases and other resources?
"Unfortunately, with the new equipment on order, nothing is likely to change. The politicos who authorized the new cars will insist that Amtrak continue to run the Crescent and other long distance trains. They probably believe that reducing the Crescent's annual loss from $46.1 million to $44.6 million a smart business decision."
That's what Sam1 said. I recognize that Amtrak is a political entity controlled by Washington politicos. But a bad business decision is a bad business decision no matter who is running the organization.
Not only was it raw politics that saved the Texas Eagle, the same political pressure was used to change it to a daily train, add a stop at Mineola, and institute the Hearland Flyer. The senator who pushed for the Eagle and Flyer has never been on a train, to the best of my knowledge, except as a publicity stunt.
Frank and Jesse had the decency, when robbing a bank, to wave guns under the noses of the people being robbed. Most of them probably figured out quickly that it was going to be a bad hair day. Many politicians, however, ram through legislation in the middle of the night, frequently attached to another bill to mask their intent, and steal the wealth of their constituents without their even know it. That's how the Texas Eagle was saved.
Sam1Good thoughts? Why not kill the overnight sleeper train, hawk the sleepers, diners, etc., and run a day coach and business class train from DC to Atlanta, ala the Pennsylvanian, with connecting service from New York? If there is a market for it, run a day train from Atlanta to New Orleans. A connection with the DC train would be out, but there don't appear to be that many connecting passengers.
I would think that would be even better, but if you had to keep it roughly on it's existing schedule.....
If you did split it and made it two day trains with an overnight connection in Atlanta, you could do a deal with the local mid-town Hampton or whatever, providing a special rate with hotel shuttle to and from the station. Cheaper than a sleeper and you'd get to see the whole route during daylight.
You could probably do this or similar with all the east coast trains.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Paul MilenkovicI see it as a question of what gets priority? What gets first claim on new equipment purchases and other resources?
It is pretty obvious that the priorities are set myopically. Who are the primary beneficiaries of the recent equipment order? The Amtrak employees.
Amtrak just set a ridership record. About 2/3 of the additional passengers over last year are NEC coach passengers. Where is the new capacity for the largest growth segment of Amtrak's business?
The tail is wagging the dog.
John WR Paul MilenkovicI don't see it as a "false dichotomy" of discontinuing long-distance trains. I see it as a question of what gets priority? What gets first claim on new equipment purchases and other resources? Supposing we do make it a question of priority, Paul, and as a result long distance trains are eroded to the point of extinction. How then do we maintain a sufficient national consensus to make short distance trains possible?
There is nothing cast in steel that says the LD trains have to operate on the streamliner schedules of the 1950s. The LD routes, particularly in the east can be reconfigured into day train routes that better connect the middle of the routes to the end points rather than best serving end-to-end travel. This is especially true in the Southeast and Florida where the population has grown enormously since Amtrak's inception. Amtrak either hasn't noticed or pretends not to notice.
Keep the route - and keep the political support. Fix the service - and improve the bottom line.
Don,
I understand that you would keep the long distance trains but alter the schedules to make them better serve the areas they pass through, especially in the East.
Perhaps you can clarify what you mean. Amtrak operated 4 daily trains between New York and southeast cities along the Atlantic coast.
Train 89, the Palmetto, leaves NYP at 615 AM and ends at Savannah, GA at 9:03 PM providing daytime service to most cities on its route during the daytime or evening.
Train 79, the Carolinian, leaves NYP at 7:05 AM and ends at Charlotte, NC at 8:12 PM.
Train 91, the Silver Star, leaves NYP at 11:02AM and arrives at Southern Pines NC at 10:30 PM. It continues all night through the rest of NC, all of SC and GA and at daybreak, 6:55 AM, arrives in Jacksonville FL. It continues all day through Florida until it gets to Miami at 6:05 PM.
Train 97, the Silver Meteor, leaves NYP at 3:15PM and arrives in Rocky Mount, NC at 11:56PM. Rocky Mount is the first stop in North Carolina. It travels through the Carolinas all night and gets to Savannah at 6:44AM and Jacksonville at 9:23AM which allows time for breakfast before you get off. It ends at Miami at 6:55PM.
Would you change these schedules? If so, How? Or would you do something else?
Sure seems most buses run through the night. Why would a day train be better? If you want to cross the new overnight stop your trip gets 10 hours longer. Even megabus does one of their two DC to TN runs overnight, and they charge more for the overnight run.
V.Payne Sure seems most buses run through the night. Why would a day train be better? If you want to cross the new overnight stop your trip gets 10 hours longer. Even megabus does one of their two DC to TN runs overnight, and they charge more for the overnight run.
Nearly all the Megabuses run during the day, at least out of ATL. There is one overnight to NOL. Day trains are better than overnight, because nobody wants to start or end a trip at 3AM. How many people get on the train in Philly for Boston between 1:00 and 4:00 AM vs. 1:00 and 4:00 PM?
The Crescent's route though NC and SC is through the high density Piedmont region. The route south of Atlanta is rural, except for Birmingham. So why does the train hit the PIedmont in the dead of night, but has a good schedule at Aniston AL?
The Crescent is still running the business person's "streamliner" schedule of the 1950s. The business men don't ride the Crescent anymore. In 1950 (and even 1980...) the Piedmont was pretty rural. Not so anymore.....The schedule needs to be tailored to fit the current market (i.e. all those people in the Piedmont who would like to get to the northeast)
There are only a handful of people who ride the Crescent through ATL each day. You are talking about a 30 hour trip from NOL to NYP vs 3 hours flying. These are not time sensitive travelers. You wouldn't lose many if you added 10 hours to their trip. In fact, you might even gain a few since a night in a hotel is less than half what it costs on the train - the overall fare would be lower.
John WR Don, I understand that you would keep the long distance trains but alter the schedules to make them better serve the areas they pass through, especially in the East. Perhaps you can clarify what you mean. Amtrak operated 4 daily trains between New York and southeast cities along the Atlantic coast. Train 89, the Palmetto, leaves NYP at 615 AM and ends at Savannah, GA at 9:03 PM providing daytime service to most cities on its route during the daytime or evening. Train 79, the Carolinian, leaves NYP at 7:05 AM and ends at Charlotte, NC at 8:12 PM. Train 91, the Silver Star, leaves NYP at 11:02AM and arrives at Southern Pines NC at 10:30 PM. It continues all night through the rest of NC, all of SC and GA and at daybreak, 6:55 AM, arrives in Jacksonville FL. It continues all day through Florida until it gets to Miami at 6:05 PM. Train 97, the Silver Meteor, leaves NYP at 3:15PM and arrives in Rocky Mount, NC at 11:56PM. Rocky Mount is the first stop in North Carolina. It travels through the Carolinas all night and gets to Savannah at 6:44AM and Jacksonville at 9:23AM which allows time for breakfast before you get off. It ends at Miami at 6:55PM. Would you change these schedules? If so, How? Or would you do something else?
Once upon a time, the market for the Silver Service trains was to carry people from the northeast to Miami (predominantly) for the warmth and sun. Three things have changed in the past 30 years.
Oltmannd
Many of the postings to the Trains forums are well thought out. Your two most recent ones are outstanding. Do you think anyone from Amtrak reads these forums for workable ideas?
So you would loose all birmingham to greensboro traffic if there was a overnight stop in Atlanta between two day trains. A large advantage over driving is traveling while you might normally be sleeping.
V.Payne So you would loose all birmingham to greensboro traffic if there was a overnight stop in Atlanta between two day trains. A large advantage over driving is traveling while you might normally be sleeping.
Yes. Both passengers this month would have to find another way.
But, you would gain all kinds of traffic between and among Atlanta, Spartansburg, Greenville, Charlotte and Greensboro.
A large advantage of flying is that you get there in time to go to bed.
Sam1 Oltmannd Many of the postings to the Trains forums are well thought out. Your two most recent ones are outstanding. Do you think anyone from Amtrak reads these forums for workable ideas?
Here is one suggested idea that Amtrak did consider and rejected because it would cause a decrease in revenue. The idea is discussed in the performance improvement plan on page 70:
- 70 -
Converting one or more Silver Service trains into connected corridor services
would have significantly reduced revenues due to loss of high revenue passengers traveling
longer distances without producing material cost savings or service to new markets (since most
portions of the Silver Service routes already have daytime services utilized by short-distance
passengers).
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