Many conducters that i know are complaing that they have to walk up and down sets of stairs to collect tickets and since many are older and heaver this is causing back problems. Look in future for a POP system on NJ Transit and MARC trains with these new cars.
a reason why gallery type double-deckers may be better.
A typical case of a company doing more work with less people. Increase a workers load. Increase the bottom line. That's all they care about.
davekleppera reason why gallery type double-deckers may be better.
I've been trying to figure this out, but I can't.
Gallery cars result in some of the passengers having to climb less, but surely the conductor has to negotiate the full height difference between low and high level repeatedly in a gallery car just as in a bilevel. Might even be more walking as you effectively have 3 separate aisles in a gallery (but it depends on the pattern that a conductor follows when he takes tickets, because his route may involve 'backtracking' to get back to 'starting position' and it's about as easy to take the alternate route in a gallery upper level as 'deadhead' back down a car aisle).
There's a little more involved with rising out of the gravity well low down, that isn't practically recovered when descending, but I don't think conductors notice. (It is very, very, very little) I would not have been really surprised, though, to find the subject broached during contract negotiations...
In a gallery car, the conductor walks only on the aisle on the main floor. The passengers on the two side galleries reach over the narrow side aisle and hand down their tickets or other proof of payment to the oonductor, who reaches up to receive and return them. The seat-checkclips on the backs of seats on the main floor are replaced by clips on the panels from the soffit over the main-floor seats to the gallery aisles above. Concuctors do not need to walk the gallery aisles.
I write from experience.
The problem with gallery cars is they have two and two or two and three (rare) seating below and only one and one seating above. So that is approximately a 25% loss in capacity, meaning that gallery cars at the most will seat just under 50% more than single-level while pure double-deckers just under 100% more.
You can tell I haven't ridden in gallery cars now.
Thanks, Dave.
This link shows a gallery car interior: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Nippon_Sharyo_bi-level_passenger_car_interior_hallway.JPG. The conductor stays on the bottom and can see and reach all seats from the one level. A true bilevel car like NJ Transit uses has separate floors and the conductor has to walk both levels, in effect walking each car twice and going up or down a staircase at each end.
A number of the conductors I have seen over the years need the exercise.
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CandOforprogress2 Many conducters that i know are complaing that they have to walk up and down sets of stairs to collect tickets and since many are older and heaver this is causing back problems. Look in future for a POP system on NJ Transit and MARC trains with these new cars.
Um, your statement already gives the main reason for this problem, and it's not the double deck cars. It's the fact that many conductors are older and heavier, aka overweight...the back problems have nothing to do with the double deck cars and more with the fitness of the conductors.
Ahh, the Northeast again.....my favorite region to criticize outside of Southern California. You know Dallas Trinity Railway Express uses the honor system for paid tickets so the conductor only needs to randomly climb the steps if they feel like doing it at all (and most times they don't). I can imagine if the honor system was tried in the Northeast how well that would work out with lost revenue. Also far easier to stand in the vestibule at the door and spot check.
The other thing is the conductors and operating crew are a lot younger in Dallas and don't have the waistlines as conductors do in the Northeast because Dallas contracts from Herzog Rail Services. Plus we used the GO Transit tri-level car design which is more comfortable vs the gallery cars Chicago uses.
As a twice-daily gallery coach rider since 1980 (South Shore before that date), I have found them to be quite comfortable, both upstairs and downstairs, for the half-hour ride between home and work, even to the occasional sleeping past my stop.
My observation is that most commuters use monthly tickets or 10-ride tickets with only a handful of cash fares so ticket checks move rather quickly.
When I lived and worked in La Grange, Westmont, and Downers Grove, summer 1952 and 1967-1970, and spent most evenings in Chicago or Glencoe, I found the Burlington and Northwestern gallery cars comfortable. I liked them.
Some of these conducters date back to the Alco era
CandOforprogress2 Some of these conducters date back to the Alco era
Well, as one who is 84, and thus dates back to the GG1, EMD E-6, and NYC Hudson era, us older foikes don't usually have quite the stamina that you Tier-4 youngsters may have. OK? But I do watch my avoudupois (Fr. Sp?). Still fit into a USA 32 wasteline and for the moment (at least) can keep my trousers from falling down with a belt without suspenders.
Dont remember the inside of GO train 1980s bilevel can someone pull that up please cant find it
The old LIRR double deckers had one isle, the conductors reach both up and down.
Gallery cars LOAD on the lower level, Eastern double deckers load at the mid level isle.
ROAR
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If Passenger Conductors feel that double deck cars are too much work, they can go back and be a freight conductor - they will only climb on and off the locomotive when they walk their 9000 to 15000 foot trains (each way) when trouble happens. The will only have to set 10% or more hand brakes (depending on territory) when securing their train for a pick up or set off, of course to leave they will have to release the hand brakes they set.
BaltACD If Passenger Conductors feel that double deck cars are too much work, they can go back and be a freight conductor - they will only climb on and off the locomotive when they walk their 9000 to 15000 foot trains (each way) when trouble happens. The will only have to set 10% or more hand brakes (depending on territory) when securing their train for a pick up or set off, of course to leave they will have to release the hand brakes they set.
Or they could get a job in the dispatch office. Walk 9 feet to the coffee machine and back.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Chicago Metra Conducters are quilified on there home Freight Road. while eastern conducters are quilified only on there passenger road. Twin Cities NorthStar BNSF and some LA runs use also freight quilified conducters.
zugmann BaltACD If Passenger Conductors feel that double deck cars are too much work, they can go back and be a freight conductor - they will only climb on and off the locomotive when they walk their 9000 to 15000 foot trains (each way) when trouble happens. The will only have to set 10% or more hand brakes (depending on territory) when securing their train for a pick up or set off, of course to leave they will have to release the hand brakes they set. Or they could get a job in the dispatch office. Walk 9 feet to the coffee machine and back.
And devise a plan to meet opposing 15K foot trains with existing 10K foot sidings.
zugmannOr they could get a job in the dispatch office. Walk 9 feet to the coffee machine and back.
What company could be so cruel to put the coffe maker nine feet away?
Corner of the desk is more humane.
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[quote user="BaltACD"]
While a saw-by or a double saw-by may be possible, I'm sure that executing such a move would tie up the main line for a long time. It's also the maneuver that got Casey Jones killed.
daveklepper BaltACD zugmann BaltACD If Passenger Conductors feel that double deck cars are too much work, they can go back and be a freight conductor - they will only climb on and off the locomotive when they walk their 9000 to 15000 foot trains (each way) when trouble happens. The will only have to set 10% or more hand brakes (depending on territory) when securing their train for a pick up or set off, of course to leave they will have to release the hand brakes they set. Or they could get a job in the dispatch office. Walk 9 feet to the coffee machine and back. And devise a plan to meet opposing 15K foot trains with existing 10K foot sidings. Can be done. takes lots of time heard it called "saw-by." Trqain A drops is rear half more than a train length before entering siding wiht front half. Train B runs through siding until locomotive is just before rear half of train A Front half of train A now leaves siding in its forward direction until rear of front half is more than a train length beyond siding. Train B now backs back through the enitre siding or main to beond the siding. Locomotive B now fetches the rear half of train A and pulls it into the sidinig and leaves there. Locomotive B continues to back to recouple to its complete train and continues its trip, passong A's rear half on the siding. A backs its first half into the siding to recouple to its rear half and continues its trip. . I think all freight railroaders know this. They did on the B&M in 1953.
BaltACD zugmann BaltACD If Passenger Conductors feel that double deck cars are too much work, they can go back and be a freight conductor - they will only climb on and off the locomotive when they walk their 9000 to 15000 foot trains (each way) when trouble happens. The will only have to set 10% or more hand brakes (depending on territory) when securing their train for a pick up or set off, of course to leave they will have to release the hand brakes they set. Or they could get a job in the dispatch office. Walk 9 feet to the coffee machine and back. And devise a plan to meet opposing 15K foot trains with existing 10K foot sidings.
In 1953 you had manned cabooses on the rear of trains that were staffed with 4 or 5 man crews. 2016 you don't, engineer & conductor are maximum crew complement - both on head end. 1953 air brakes, with a open trainline, were expected to hold - in 2016 10% or more hand brakes have to be applied when cutting away from a portion of a train under any circumstance (weed weasels) and the point of any reverse move is to be ridden (or otherwise protected) while it is being moved. It could still be done today, however, it would probably outlaw both crews as well as have the conductors being treated for exhaustion.
VERY TRUE. It can still be accomplished with a two-man crew, just takes a bit longer. With one-man crews it would take all day and tire people out very greatly. Assuming a man can ride a rear car on a back-up move, here is how to do it with two-man crews, assuming perfect radio contact, all systems go, etc.
Train A stops at the point where thre rear half is to be uncoupled, more than half a train-length from the approaching switch to the siding. The second man uloads at that p;oint and is responsbile for the uncoupling, closing the rear of the air of the forward half of A, and setting the necessary hand brakes on forward cars of the rear half. He is the one doing most of the owrk. The engineer of A will have to operate the switch to the siding if it is a hand-throw. But must must be understood that all swtiches must be checked for position and no assumptions made aqbout switches returned to main from siding position.
When B pulls through the siding the first time, a stop is made at its arrival switch (A's departure switch) to drop B's second man so he can ride the rear end. When B has pulled throiugh the siding with the rear end in the cleer for the front half of A to pull a whole trainlength and a bit more ahead, B boards the rear of B, so he can control the backup more after the front half of A proceeds. And at that time, after releasing the handbrakes on the rear half of A, A's second man boards B's power to ride as it pulls the rear half of A intio the siding. And he stays at the front of the rear-half of A, again setting the handbrakes, when B's power goes to rejoin its train. After Bs pull through the siding a second time (with B's second man still on the rear end, more later), A backs up blind, but with A's second man at the switch and able to communicate with the engineer. After the recoupling of the two halves of A, and releasing the handbrakes, A's second man must walk forward the half =-train length to reboard the locomotive or ride out of the siding half-way back on the train.
At sometime after the meet. B must get a backup move from the dispatcher to pick up his second man who had been riding rear. A can do the same if hsi second man has not walked forward from the train's half-way point.
With today's long trains, I would suspect the dispatcher would have to allow three or four hours for all this with two-man crews. With one-man crews tlhel meet would take enough time to outlaw any further operation by the crew.
I think today a sawby would be used only in an emergency to correct a dispatching mistake and keep the rialroad fluid. If there were access roads, possbly additional manpower could be sent to the siding to speed things up a bit, with vehicles also used to reposition men.
The B&M Portsboiuth - Summerville Yard frieght that I rode regularly did have a four-man crew, two (plus me) in the GP-7 and two in the caboose. I never expeienced a sawby myself, just learned about it. The line was double-track from Boston to Newburyport, and any meets we had were south of that point.
I think today Newbryport - Portmouth is abandoned, Portsmouth still has frieght service, I think, via short east-west branch from the existing Boston - Portland main line, a line that use to continoue to Nashua, but was abandoned betwen the junction and Nashua. The T purple line provides commuter service to Newburyport, and PanAm may still be providing freight service there.
daveklepperVERY TRUE. It can still be accomplished with a two-man crew, just takes a bit longer. With one-man crews it would take all day and tire people out very greatly. Assuming a man can ride a rear car on a back-up move, here is how to do it with two-man crews, assuming perfect radio contact, all systems go, etc.
What I want to see is how this is done without bottling the air at some point, or avoiding some or all the provisions of a legal brake test when any train is 'remade' with a large additional cut of cars added to its consist (either 'temporarily' or permanently.
Seems to my eyes that any temporary movement of this length of cuts without active air braking is a major violation of the spirit and principle of, and indeed the common sense behind, the Power Brake Law and its successors. And just as cavalier connection and disconnection of one-pipe-braked cuts is often ultimately 'enforced in blood', so might this be... unless an exacting procedure is followed each time to assure as much safety as prescribed for general operation.
A couple of potentially interesting discussion questions:
Could this be done with ECP, and if so, with what technical provisions (and should those provisions, if not included in Sarah's Concern, be provided in that mandate?)
What changes to the laws and regulations would be needed to implement this procedure, or one like it, assuming a suitable ECP installation that did permit it safely (in an objective sense)?
I was not proposing anything illegal except the blind backup of A in reassembling the train. But ini many cases A's second man stationed at the A departure switch would have line-of-sight to the front half as it is backing up, or at least when it came close. Otherwise, yes, the necessary handbrakes would be set on the rear half both when standing on the main at the start of the sawboy9 and standing in the siding near the end of the sawby. Time would be requried to apply and release in both cases, and pump up air, etc. That is all time consouming, and three or foiur hours for the total operation is ressonable. Less, of course, if help is provided. And I do not see it possible on a heavy grade, where too many handbrakes would be required.
And B's sec ond man need noat stay with the B rear. Just a short walk to the rear of A-front-half, and then on that rear as it backs to pick up the rear hald where a-second-man is waiting. B will then wait with its rear even with the front of A-secon-half, until B reboards. No vilation of rules at all with this addition.
I'm still thinking you will have to perform an air test ... which involves inspecting the full length of the consist, supposedly on both sides, twice (once to verify the brakes go on, and once to verify they release properly) -- every time one of your cuts is attached. And these consists are how long, with what kind of access back along the train?
I don't know if you can do part of a brake test while riding on a parallel train, but I'm not sure I'd risk any brownies finding out by trying. Railroaders here will know if that's legal or advisable.
Half a crew's full legal hours on one saw-by -- with the very likely probability that one or both crews might go on the law in the middle of the procedure -- is not exactly an advisable time for what is supposed to become a SOP with longer trains. And this says nothing about what happens to all the rest of the traffic on the railroad while this is going on. Or if one or more of a great many things happens and causes increased delay...
Yes, you might get around some of the responsibility with 'modern methods' and it might be interesting to discuss some.
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