Mean Passengers - Turn-Off to Potential Riders?

[MP57313]

I subscribe to several newsletters and magazines, and the rail transit-related columns discuss topics like increasing ridership and luring potential new passengers out of their private automobiles.  The usual elements are discussed - fare plans; cost of gas; schedules and routes, housing near stations, etc.

Almost never do the columnists/article writers discuss the "quality of life" on board the trains.  Are they missing something?  On occasion I have been on board trains where loud-mouthed rude people (usually in a group) are either hassling another person, or just otherwise being noisy and disruptive.  I'm in my late 40s and generally mind my own business.  But witnessing such events makes me reluctant to recommend transit to some folks, especially if they would be traveling alone (young kids; young moms with a kid or two, etc.).  The rude people I've seen are not brandishing weapons or making specific threats against other people, but there is a feeling of unease when these situations occur.  Paranoid - or good reason to be concerned? The Los Angeles MTA has officers on the trains but I don't think there's an officer in every car of every train. 

And - has anyone read a transit column that talks about this type of situation?

MP

[AntonioFP45]

I've seen several you-tube videos of unruly passengers.  Sad, but this is the sign of the times. 

There are many factors at work but one that is often spoken about is that since the 1970 so often many parents, especially very young parents, seem to not strongly emphasize the values of respect, good manners and empathy.   Rudeness in today's society is so much for common now than in the past.  We reap what we sow.

[daveklepper]

Possibly when a situation develops, a group of adults on the train can get together and confront the unruly passengers as a group.   Possibly also getting the conductor involved.

[Midnight Railroader]

I ride light-rail trains in Denver frequently and have only witnessed one such event--some boozed-up baseball fans got into an argument which threatened to become a brawl. But RTD is good about having security on board and the one officer in the car was quickly joined by two others at the next stop.

They removed the problem riders and everything went smoothly from that point. 

[Anonymous]

As of just recently I have returned to the railroad.  But right before I worked for a transit company (DART).  I dont know about any of the other agencies, but all Dart employees are responcible for how the customers fellings are.  As far as the feeling of uneasyness.  The one thing that I can say to try and help resolve this issue is when something like this comes up, if you are riding a train, contact any uniformed employee, or even the operator of the train.  If the aggency has there own police department, they will know how to contact them. I would also sugest going to the board meetings.  I know that most people work, and if they work a schedule like mine where you mainly work nights, or things like that you cant go.  But you could send them a letter, or just call and make a complaint.  I am sure they would be more than willing to listen, and if they are a good agency, then they will find a away to improve service.  Service is there game, so they should know how to play it.  I know that Dart is putting new cameras on some of the trains and busses to help prosecute the arrested offender in court.  If you ever have a minute or so on your journey, ask the operator of the bus, or train if there is a number you can call to get the transit police.  For some reason they will reply faster when a rider calls instead of an operator.  I know I have called transit police for my mom a few times due to the same guy asking for money every day.  The responde fairly quickly with me, but they got there a lot faster when she called her self.

[AlgomaCentralfan]

You bring up a very good point MP57313.  I can tell you here in the Chicago are there have been more than a few times when I have been on a train car on either Metra or the "EL" and there were groups of rude (even if just loud) people on board and I have just turned the volume up on my IPOD to drown out the sound to some loud heavy meal or punk rock.  But there have been a few times where thugish behavior and threatening has caused concern about the safety of me and my friends, me and the passengers around me or me and a girl I am out on a date with.  Unfortunately I am a daily Metra and "El" rider and have never seen a police officer of any agency on the train.  Not now nor a few years ago when I was in college in Chicago.  As much as I love trains there are certain lines that I would not recomend a woman alone or with a child should ride on alone esp. during the day or night.  I even questioned my parents at letting my sister take the Metra up to downtown one sat. by herself to go shopping when she was in highschool.  She called me up and asked me if I wanted to get lunch with her downtown (Though it was a sat. morning and I was in college so I had a hangover and did not want her to see me that way).   I was shocked that she came by herself without Mom or one of her girlfriends.  I know 99% of the time it is safe but sometimes at night public transit can be something else.

[JT22CW]

Is this a new phenomenon?  I have never had any trouble from passengers, whether on commuter rail or even the subway.

If my suspicions are correct, such misbehavior (where and when it occurs) would be related to places that POP (proof-of-payment) fare collection has been instituted.  POP is a recipe for trouble; the only way it can be effective is with labor-intensive ticket inspection, preferably using police officers.

[CPRail modeler]

What about crazy passengers?

I actually have a story about this crazy woman that, when she boarded the Skytrain, would yell at whoever is sitting in the disabled persons seat saying "I deserve this seat now BEAT IT!" and stuff like that. If the person refused, she would phisically chuck the person out of the seat.

I have more stories but I think that is one of the better ones. PM me for more.

[tomikawaTT]

A couple of years ago I ran into a situation in a certain midwestern city where a group had decided that one end of a car was "their turf."  When the train stopped at a station (where there were a good many people waiting to board) a teenage boy planted himself in the door and announced that nobody could get on because there wasn't any room - a bald-faced lie, as anyone with one functional eyeball could see.

The first person on the platform was a retired sergeant built approximately like a bulldozer.  He spread his arms and walked straight ahead - followed by a couple of dozen other people.  As the doors closed, he told the teenager (who was plastered against his chest,) "In Japan, they hire people to stuff people into trains."  The kid had no response.

Chuck

[AntonioFP45]

Chuck,

I would have shaken that retired Sargent's hand! That's a real hero.

[MP57313]

Is this a new phenomenon?  I have never had any trouble from passengers, whether on commuter rail or even the subway. If my suspicions are correct, such misbehavior (where and when it occurs) would be related to places that POP (proof-of-payment) fare collection has been instituted.  POP is a recipe for trouble; the only way it can be effective is with labor-intensive ticket inspection, preferably using police officers.

The Los Angeles MTA Green Line, where the most recent incident happened, is randomly patrolled by uniformed sheriff's deputies.  The deputies are not always on board every train. Maybe that's what you are referring to - if there were a uniformed officer in each car, then rude behavior is less likely?  Could be. 

The situation I'm thinking of had a man around 20 years old, verbally insulting another man (who looked to be maybe 30) who was from a foreign country.  The 20 year old was dressed like a gang-banger (but I don't know if he was) and was basically challenging the 30 year old to defend himself because he was from a foreign country.  Neither I nor any of the handful of other passengers said anything - the guy was verbally abusive but not physically abusive.  And - both the mean guy and the victim were of a different race.  Now how how would I - a late 40s white guy - or anyone else on the train challenge him without it appearing that I'm a racist?  I'm not 'built like a bulldozer' and besides that is somewhat risky to challenge mean people.

Just the same, while that incident was the only one I've seen on the Green Line (I've ridden it maybe 100 times over the past 10 years or so).  In most other trips the ride is uneventful, although there have been some loudmouths on board now and then. 

[JT22CW]

Sad story.  Hope it's not a harbinger of things to come.

My experience on the east coast is that having a permanent presence of trainmen and conductors on board is certainly deterrent enough; they have access to radios and if there are any troublemakers, they are quickly detained at the next station.

Frankly, I'm surprised that the antagonist in your situation didn't have any fear that someone would summon the police via cell phone.  (I've seen episodes of "Cops" that featured "he with big mouth" being rapidly silenced by the tazer...satisfying, in a way.)

[al-in-chgo]

Sad story.  Hope it's not a harbinger of things to come.

My experience on the east coast is that having a permanent presence of trainmen and conductors on board is certainly deterrent enough; they have access to radios and if there are any troublemakers, they are quickly detained at the next station.

Frankly, I'm surprised that the antagonist in your situation didn't have any fear that someone would summon the police via cell phone.  (I've seen episodes of "Cops" that featured "he with big mouth" being rapidly silenced by the tazer...satisfying, in a way.)

 

 

Riding Chicago's CTA Red L line in midevening, I have  o c c a s i o n a l l y  seen (regular, not transit) cops boarding briefly, or riding from Belmont to Fullerton stations, that sort of thing.  Frequently they have German Shepherds with them.  I've seen them say a soft word to very loud or giggly teens; I've also seen them bust "the fast, fast ball" game that is or was something like Chicago's version of hustling three-card monte.  (Why the idiots didn't pack it in is beyond me.) 

Unfortunately, even long L trains nowadays make do with one motorman; the midtrain conductor is not to be found.  If occasion really makes you nervous, quickly hop from one car to the other while the train is in the station.  It is no longer permissible nor possible to walk between the cars.  There are also some people who will ride only in the first car, where the motorman is, especially at night.

Alas, general "in-your-face-ness" doesn't seem to be a crime.  I have heard of all sorts of Metra misbehavior too (guys on the upper level of gallery cars "cleaning" their muddy boots and shedding dirt onto riders below; maurauding teens, barf jobs, loud arguments); but I haven't seen any of them on my UP-North line, except for one poor beery kid riding home after "celebrating" St. Patrick's Day.  On that line I have seen the egregious saving of seats for packages, not people -- but it is clearly stated time and again that people get priority in seating, so I guess the thing to do is be assertive -- or talk with a trainman, who are found on RR cars if not RT. 

Our Metra line -- and I had thought all of system -- has at least one "quiet car" per train in which an old-fashioned library, just-before-worship-service, calm is supposed to pertain.  The knife cuts both ways -- neither initiating nor receiving cell calls is allowed, even if the phone is set to vibrate when a call comes in.  Shhhhh!  Fifteen years ago the (largely upper-middle class) commuters on my line would chat, read the paper or drink coffee; today it's all business right down to checkbook-balancing.  Perhaps if a particular Metra line doesn't feature the quiet car, it  might indeed be a good idea to do a little discreet politicking to get that feature installed.  (I'd recommend asking a Trainman or Conductor what to do, because often they know the bureaucracy inside-out.) 

For what it's worth, I don't think the general, observable behavior of most teens has deteriorated, though there are times when a group gets together and acts out "alienated generation" loudly and persistently. (St. Patrick's Day in Chicago has been a horror throughout the twenty-five-plus years I've lived here, frankly.)   I am more appalled by recent news that American exchange students in many Asian countries act poorly and rudely, ignoring native customs, and are barely aware of their own U.S. customs and law -- and have on occasion been sent home.  As someone who earned his way through college and paid for the foreign sojourn all by himself, naturally my blood boils.    But at home, on Metra, read their literature carefully -- they almost certainly espouse your values and public behavior, so calling attention to a noisy or hostile standout is not an awful thing to do at all.  If you really hate noise, trust me:  anything louder than a sneeze in the quiet car is received very darkly by the passengers!   -  a. s.