In bad taste to the point of - What were they thinking?
Especially in Manhatten!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Oh for heaven's sake, that's Philip K. Dick's science-fiction classic. Amazon is doing a media series based on that book, and wrapping the subway car is (evidently) part of the promotion. I would note that there has been some care to avoid the use of the swastika in the "Nazi" emblem on the 'new U.S. flag' and probably elsewhere; I would expect a media company to be careful in the use of emotionally-charged symbols in a broadcast project, perhaps much more than in a targeted ad campaign.
Yes, in the story the Allies lose WW2, and the US is split into east and west (much like happened to Germany after WW2) with the Japanese controlling the west and Germany the east. I don't see any problem promoting the movie this way - beyond the fact that I don't really care for these whole car 'wraparound' ads in general.
BaltACD In bad taste to the point of - What were they thinking? Especially in Manhatten!
The national news coverage they are getting reaches far more than what the car itself would reach? Pretty brillant move.
Of course that guy is offended. What would America be if we weren't always offended?
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Add my vote to the not offended. There have been many movies from the German point of view, for example The Eagle Has Landed's poster, which I'm sure was in lots of newspaper ads and at many theaters, has at least one swastika.
Google also shows me a swastika on what looks to be a promotional poster for Inglorious Basterds.
Does anybody know of any protests to that?
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.gstatic.com/tv/thumb/movieposters/2147/p2147_p_v7_aa.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.gstatic.com/tv/thumb/movieposters/2147/p2147_p_v7_aa.jpg&h=720&w=480&tbnid=cw6VWkx-LpGFuM:&tbnh=186&tbnw=124&usg=___e8xai4v1zjsB9YIzxWfjCVStic=&docid=Bh75xc7EbaRduM&itg=1
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
Um, I didn't see any swastikas, did you? I DID see the old Nazi party eagle with an Iron Cross substitution, and there's nothing Nazi (aside from the ones awarded during WW2) about the Iron Cross, the medal goes back to 1813.
I notice no-one said anything about the variation on the Japanese "Rising Sun" war flag. Quite a few Asians and Americans of the World War Two generation find that offensive too, but you don't hear them complaining about it. Made of sterner stuff, I suppose.
By the way, the Japanese still use the old "meatball" flag as a national emblem and the "meatball with rays" as the naval flag, but those flags have been in use for well over 100 years and have no political connotation as the Nazi's swastika flag did.
All this fuss about an obvious ad campaign. Sheesh!
It seems to me that in general it's a bad idea to ask people to sit on or in any way put their "arses" on a national flag of any sort, including a riff on our own or another nation's. 'Tain't respectful. I also suspect it's shocking to older residents of and tourists in Manhattan.
It's too bad advertising is allowed or needed on the subway in the first place. I'm paying a fare ($3.00) to have a simple ride without being subjected to obnoxious advertisements no matter what the subject. These tarted-up subway cars are like having a daughter, starving her of needed upkeep, and then pimping her, or prostituting her because she should help earn her keep.
How would people like to see religious images or symbols painted on subway seats? In its shock value, how does such subway car decoration really differ from graffitti?
Just one more darned thing we have to get used to.
There have been other cases of subway adds bothering riders. One that bothered me actually advertized New York's Transit Museum. What could be objectionable? It featured a pix of a ACF-Brill trackless trolley, and said come and see a film of when these beasts roared through Brookliyn.
I objected strongly because, as well you know, trackless trolleys are the very quietest transit vehicles on the street, even quieter than a PCC car.
Other adds featured Jews for Jesus, with a slightly altered pix of the famous Hassidic Rabbi Menahem Shmeerson and asking one to be a "completed Jew" by accepting Jesus as the Messsiah.
And another essentially seeming to make all Muslims terrorists by quoting just the most violant parts of the Koran without the supplementary material (that indeed the terrorists do avoid in justifying their terror).
I could go on. This is not the first by any means.
During WWII, of course, there was far more censorship.
I do not find the ads offensive in terms of symbols. Often that depends on the context and usage and intent. It's a subtle distinction. Advertising a contrafactual/what if? movie is one thing (eg., NS symbols in such a movie). However, a government agency accepting advertising promoting an eliminationist or subjugationist ideology and including their symbol in ads would be wrong.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
In northern Ontario there is a town called "Swastika" and during the war, they had a billboard at the train station that said, "The hell with Hitler, we had the name long before he did!" And so, there was no more pressure to change the town's name which remains so to this day. The Ontario Northland Railway used to stop there until the train was discontinued a few years ago, but the station and tracks remain.
Those hard plastic seats are probably uncomfortable by intent, probably to discourage people from "camping out" on the trains.
Ever go to a fast-food place and find yourself not quite able to get comfortable in the chairs and at the tables? Same philosophy.
daveklepperOther adds featured Jews for Jesus, with a slightly altered pix of the famous Hasidic Rabbi Menahem Shneerson and asking one to be a "completed Jew" by accepting Jesus as the Messiah.
What in heaven's name does Rabbi Schneerson have to do with Rosen's group?
Who/what is the Rosen group?
Firelock76Those hard plastic seats are probably uncomfortable by intent, probably to discourage people from "camping out" on the trains.
Also, there was a problem with vandals cutting the cushions.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
schlimmWho/what is the Rosen group?
Martin Rosen founded 'Jews for Jesus' in the early '70s.
Firelock76 Those hard plastic seats are probably uncomfortable by intent, probably to discourage people from "camping out" on the trains. Ever go to a fast-food place and find yourself not quite able to get comfortable in the chairs and at the tables? Same philosophy.
also easier to clean the various fluids...
Jews fpr Jesus existed before the 1970'sm but you are corect that it was started by a Rabbi named Rosen. I think he was located in Florida and thought that Jews converting to Christianity would end anti-Semitism. Or so I was told by an Episcopalian minister for whose church I did some work around 1962.
Rabbi Meir Schneerson had no connection whatsoever, but whoever designed the poster used in the subway obiously thought that his photo, only slightly altered, would pass as the Christians' Messiah. Both people probably would have been apalled in my opinion!
I think everyone will find this interesting...
Years back, I owned a Mauser 98k rifle, the standard issue rifle for the German Army during WW2. This one had been used by the Isreali Defense Forces and had been recently imported into the US. In addition to the IDF markings on the top of the reciever lo and behold there were the German Waffenamt inspection markings on the left side of the forward reciever ring, complete with Nazi eagles and swastikas.
I was surprised the Isrealis hadn't ground off the Nazi proof marks, but then I realized they probably enjoyed the delicious irony. "Hey, Adolf tried to kill us all, he failed, and NOW we're defending ourselves with HIS equipment!"
I don't have that rifle any more but now I wished I'd kept it. What a story it had to tell.
Rosen was not a rabbi. His parents were Austrian Reform Jews. He became a Christian in 1953, worked for the Am. Board of Missions to the Jews, mostly in NYC, until Sept. 1973 when he founded the "Jews for Jesus" organization, which is headquartered in SF.
There seem to be a lot of ads for the Amazon Prime series - "Highcastle" - running on many TV stations, such as ESPN.
daveklepper: In a forum dedicated to correct terminology and getting it right when it comes to trains, may I gently offer a correction to a term you used? You made an error, as many people commonly do, in referring to an Episcopal priest as an "Episcopalian minister." Ordained clergy in the Episcopal Church are priests. They may act as ministers and they are correctly given the title of Reverend. Many high-falutin such priests even prefer to be addressed as Father, something that makes my Protestant stomach queasy. You address their mail to "The Rev. David Klepper" and in salutation may correctly say, "Dear Mr. Klepper." In referring to them they are "the Rev. Mr. Klepper" or simply "Mr. Klepper" (or, "Father Klepper" if that's his preference). Don't get me started on the subject of addressing female clergy!
Members of the Episcopal Church are Episcopalians but our clergy are Episcopal priests. When such a priest is in charge of a parish he or she is a Rector, which is a legal and not eccelesiastical title.
And as we are wont to say, wherever you find four of us you'll find a fifth.
You are absolutely correct, and I hereby apologize to you and all other Anglicans and Episcopalians (Episcopalians are also Anglicans; the Episcopal Church is the Anglican Church of the United States of America) on the Forum. This is something I've known for a long time, and you can put my error down to my Dislexia. I think the priest that told me of the Jews for Jesus phenonemon, was indeed either a Rector or a Dean. It was a church in Lakeland, Winter Park, or Orlando, FL. It was around the time of FEC strike, with the ACL trains starting to use the Aurbundale connection and the Seabord into Miami. Interesting that I remember the train ride more than the project!
If you wish to know how important the Episcopal Church (Church of the Advent, Boston, then St, Thomas 5th Avenue, NYC in particular) was in my life, you can pull up www.proaudioencyclopedia.com and read "An autobiographical evaluation of Clarity, Csub50, in speech intelligibility." And if you contact me at daveklepper@yahoo.com, I will, by return email, attach the Parkin and Taylor 1952 Wireless World paper on St. Paul's Cathedral (London) that started the effective revolution in church sound systems, affecting some synagogues and mosques as well.
What I have learned, asside from better controling Dislexia, is that Jews for Jesus operated under the Board of Missions before it became a separate organization. But I assure you the phenomenon exsisted in 1962.
Possibly under the Board of Missions, they would have chosen another approach to illustrate the Christian Messiah?
I was confirmed an Episcopalian and served as a vestryman and on several diocesan boards. The term minister was/is used within the church in parishes described as "low church." Parishioners would call their rector "Reverend Y" or even "Mr. Y." High church parishioners would refer to priests and the proper salutation would be "Father Z."
Can you provide a specific answer as to the difference between low and high church, and do those differences still exist today? Or rather, today, isn't there a continuum?
I recall an Episcopalian friend and client saying: We Anglicans define ourselves by what we do together, not by whom we disagree with. A very healthy attitude in my opinion.
Regarding alternative history, I highly recommend the books of Harry Turtledove who had a series where the Axis and the Allies join to fight a common enemy. There's also a series about the South winning the Civil war that spans about 80 years. Worth checking out!
for daveklepper: When the Church split in 1054 between the Church of Rome and the Orthodox ("true believer") Church, the dogma and doctrine remained the same. Likewise in 1534 when the Church of Rome and the Church of England split it was not over dogma and doctrine. In both cases it was over governance that the Churches split. Basic beliefs and tenets remained the same.
Today's Episcopal Church really no longer uses terms like High, Low and Broad Church because for the past 40 years the Church's Protestant practices have been pushed aside by the ascendent Catholic-type practices. In my opinion the Episcopal Church today is virtually indistinguishable in its ceremonies from the Roman Catholic Church.
You asked for differences between High and Low Church. I'll try to give some examples (for fun):
HC: marble altar LC: plain wooden communion table or Lord's table
HC: Roman-type vestments LC: gowns, not robes; black, not colorful
HC: incense LC: no incense HC: tons of candles LC: very few candles
HC: lots of bowing & genuflecting, etc. LC: a bow of the head is sufficient
HC: "Father Klepper" LC: "Mr. Klepper"
HC: lots of chanting LC: little if any chanting
HC: Mass (even High Mass) LC: Morning Prayer & Sermon
HC: crucifixes LC: crosses
HC: Savignon blanc for communion wine LC: port
HC: Nashota House Seminary LC: Virginia Theological Seminary
HC: St. Mary the Virgin NYC LC: St. Thomas, 5th Avenue
This was enjoyable to contemplate and contribute to a forum thread ostensibly about subway cars and Nazis! At least 54light15 gets us back on course. But may I comment on something he said? IMHO there can be no "common enemy" to the Axis and Allies. First, they already are enemies, no? Second, even the commies were friends of the Allies.
Per 54light's comment about the Axis and Allies having a common enemy, he's referring to a Harry Turtledove sci-fi novel where Earth is facing an alien invasion in the 1940's. The Allied and Axis powers have to pull together to meet the threat or they'll all go down together. Strictly a marriage of convenience, and it IS fiction.
Per "...even the Commies were friends of the Allies" reminds me of a quote from then-Senator Harry Truman when Hitler invaded the Soviet Union. When asked what the US should do about it Harry said "I think we should just sit back and watch 'em rip the hell out of each other!" Harry didn't care for Commies any more than he did for Nazis, two sides of the same coin as far as he was concerned.
Of course, Pearl Harbor and the US entry into the war changed all that.
Exactly right, Firelock! I can only assume you've read his great one, "The Guns of the South?"
Harry Truman? they don't make politicians like him anymore and that's a fact.
54light, I haven't read "Guns Of The South" except for a synopsis and for some parts, but it's very clever, VERY clever indeed!
I recently read a Harry Turtledove alternate history short story (no sci-fi in this one) called "Robert E. Lee At The Alamo," postulating a "what if" Colonel Lee USA, commanding the 2d US Cavalry was still the senior US Army officer in Texas when that state seceeded instead of having recieved orders to report to Washington DC just prior to.
THAT ones REALLY clever, and quite probable if you know Lee's character and devotion to duty.
You can find it on line easily, I won't spoil the story by telling it.
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