Nose doors

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Nose doors
Posted by Lithonia Operator on Friday, November 22, 2019 12:53 PM

Do all wide-cab engines have nose doors? (I hope wide-cab is the right term. I mean the kind of configuration you'd get if you bought a large brand new six-axle diesel today.)

I ask the question because a photo I saw shows a modern wide-cab unit seemingly without a nose door. It seem like it would be crazy not to have one.

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Posted by rdamon on Friday, November 22, 2019 2:23 PM

Depends if there is a front "porch"


The Amtrak F40s did not have a nose door.

Some were modified for freight use by ading a porch and a door.

 

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Posted by Lithonia Operator on Friday, November 22, 2019 9:59 PM

I was referring to freight units that have a front platform.

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Posted by rdamon on Saturday, November 23, 2019 8:51 AM

Looks like some may not have the window in the door.

 

https://railpictures.net/photo/717326/

 

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Posted by caldreamer on Saturday, November 23, 2019 12:02 PM

Locomotives with the headlight in the nose would not have a nose door.

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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, November 23, 2019 12:44 PM

caldreamer
Locomotives with the headlight in the nose would not have a nose door.

Yes they did have doors in their nose

https://www.railpictures.net/showimage.php?id=44500&key=6990197

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Posted by Lithonia Operator on Saturday, November 23, 2019 1:26 PM

rdamon

Looks like some may not have the window in the door.

 

https://railpictures.net/photo/717326/

 

 

 

I think that is probably what I saw, one with no window. Thanks.

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Posted by jeffhergert on Saturday, November 23, 2019 10:00 PM

The nose window has fallen out of favor.  Crash worthiness, having a hole cut in the door, was one factor.  The newer doors are also heavier and somewhat reinforced, making the placing of a window more difficult.  Some older doors that had windows have had them removed and steel welded in place of the glass.  (It's harder to tell from the outside, for some reason the inside doesn't get painted as nicely where the modification has been done.)

You used to be able to tell the difference between a GE and an EMD from the nose door placement.  No longer can this be done.  A few years ago, GE started using a heavier door.  The worry was if the engine was laying on the engineer's side, the door would be too heavy for the crew to push upward to open.  Moving the door to the engineer's side, like EMD, and the door would 'fall' open when laying on the engineer's side.  Unless it was sprung or otherwise impeded.  If the engine was laying on the conductor's side, it was thought the crew could climb out the back door behind the engineer. 

I myself would prefer not having the engine laying on either of it's sides, but that's just me.  

Jeff

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Posted by Leo_Ames on Saturday, November 23, 2019 10:31 PM

I believe a main concern with the sight glass was that the window could fail in a door that otherwise remained intact and allow debris (I assume primarily fluids such as from a struck tanker truck) to enter the cab.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Saturday, November 23, 2019 11:27 PM

jeffhergert

The nose window has fallen out of favor.  Crash worthiness, having a hole cut in the door, was one factor.  The newer doors are also heavier and somewhat reinforced, making the placing of a window more difficult.  Some older doors that had windows have had them removed and steel welded in place of the glass.  (It's harder to tell from the outside, for some reason the inside doesn't get painted as nicely where the modification has been done.)

You used to be able to tell the difference between a GE and an EMD from the nose door placement.  No longer can this be done.  A few years ago, GE started using a heavier door.  The worry was if the engine was laying on the engineer's side, the door would be too heavy for the crew to push upward to open.  Moving the door to the engineer's side, like EMD, and the door would 'fall' open when laying on the engineer's side.  Unless it was sprung or otherwise impeded.  If the engine was laying on the conductor's side, it was thought the crew could climb out the back door behind the engineer. 

I myself would prefer not having the engine laying on either of it's sides, but that's just me.  

Jeff

So that's why GE's nose door switched sides.  I knew there had to be a reason.

As for the little window, CN never ordered any units with it, and I've never noticed any hardship from that.  I really can't think of a situation where it would be helpful. 

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by Leo_Ames on Sunday, November 24, 2019 8:33 AM

The door was a FRA mandate at one time. It was meant to let someone inside the cab see if the door was going to strike someone standing outside on the platform.

I believe the official FRA term for the little door window was "sight glass", if I remember correctly what I've read before in FRA regulations. 

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Posted by Lithonia Operator on Sunday, November 24, 2019 12:32 PM

Leo_Ames

The door was a FRA mandate at one time. It was meant to let someone inside the cab see if the door was going to strike someone standing outside on the platform.

I believe the official FRA term for the little door window was "sight glass", if I remember correctly what I've read before in FRA regulations. 

 

 
With 2-man crews, and the engineer at the throttle, who exactly was the FRA expecting to be hanging out on the platform when the conductor opened the door?
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Posted by zugmann on Sunday, November 24, 2019 2:29 PM

Lithonia Operator
With 2-man crews, and the engineer at the throttle, who exactly was the FRA expecting to be hanging out on the platform when the conductor opened the door?

Brakeman (although rare, some examples of the species still exist), utility man, conductor trainee, engineer trainee, qualifying conductor or engineer, manager, machinist, elextrician, or even a re-crew.

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Posted by jeffhergert on Monday, November 25, 2019 12:33 AM

The crew has to get off the engine when they change out.  Our rules require getting on or off on the field side (away from an adjacent track).  If the field side is the same the door is in, you have to take turns and wait for the person ahead to get clear, including bags on the deck. 

That little window came in handy for that.

Jeff

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Posted by SD70Dude on Tuesday, November 26, 2019 1:11 PM

Lithonia Operator
Leo_Ames

The door was a FRA mandate at one time. It was meant to let someone inside the cab see if the door was going to strike someone standing outside on the platform.

I believe the official FRA term for the little door window was "sight glass", if I remember correctly what I've read before in FRA regulations. 

With 2-man crews, and the engineer at the throttle, who exactly was the FRA expecting to be hanging out on the platform when the conductor opened the door?

A trespasser with a weapon?  (we operate in some pretty bad neighborhoods)

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

NDG
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Posted by NDG on Tuesday, November 26, 2019 2:58 PM
FYI,
 
End Cab Locomotives.
 
On certain End Cab locomotives the rear cab door was rehung so that it would open
OUTWARDS so that in the event of a collision it may have caused door as originally designed to open Inwards.
 
 
Thank You.

 

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, November 26, 2019 8:56 PM

jeffhergert

The nose window has fallen out of favor.  Crash worthiness, having a hole cut in the door, was one factor.  The newer doors are also heavier and somewhat reinforced, making the placing of a window more difficult.  Some older doors that had windows have had them removed and steel welded in place of the glass.  (It's harder to tell from the outside, for some reason the inside doesn't get painted as nicely where the modification has been done.)

You used to be able to tell the difference between a GE and an EMD from the nose door placement.  No longer can this be done.  A few years ago, GE started using a heavier door.  The worry was if the engine was laying on the engineer's side, the door would be too heavy for the crew to push upward to open.  Moving the door to the engineer's side, like EMD, and the door would 'fall' open when laying on the engineer's side.  Unless it was sprung or otherwise impeded.  If the engine was laying on the conductor's side, it was thought the crew could climb out the back door behind the engineer. 

I myself would prefer not having the engine laying on either of it's sides, but that's just me.  

Jeff

 

It's not just you, Jeff; I am definitely with you on that matter (as well as on many others). I'm thankful that in my travels by rail the trains may have arrived late, but did arrive intact (except for the lounge car on one of my trips that had to be set out in Albuquerque because of a broken spring--no, I'm not that heavy).

Johnny

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Posted by jeffhergert on Wednesday, November 27, 2019 6:19 PM

SD70Dude

 

 
Lithonia Operator
Leo_Ames

The door was a FRA mandate at one time. It was meant to let someone inside the cab see if the door was going to strike someone standing outside on the platform.

I believe the official FRA term for the little door window was "sight glass", if I remember correctly what I've read before in FRA regulations. 

With 2-man crews, and the engineer at the throttle, who exactly was the FRA expecting to be hanging out on the platform when the conductor opened the door?

 

 

A trespasser with a weapon?  (we operate in some pretty bad neighborhoods)

 

When we put together trains in the yard in Council Bluffs, often with the really large trains, we end up blocking crossings for quite a while.  The really large ones are up the 12th street line in an older residential area.  (My record is blocking all but one crossing in town while waiting for air to build up to do the final air test.)

Recently, a fellow engineer related his latest episode on the 12th st. line.  It was late at night, about 1/2 way up the line, when a somewhat inebriated guy came up to the side of the engine and started 'conversing' with the engineer in a rather loud and profane way.  He then proceeded to 'relieve' himself on the side of the locomotive.

Up to now, the engineer had been amused by this interaction with the public.  Then this 'gentleman' decided to climb up on the front deck.  The engineer went down and locked the inside door as the person pounded on the outer door.  Luckily he was too many sheets to the wind to operate the simple outer door handle.  (The guy outside, not the engineer.) 

By the time the engineer got back in his seat, the guy had decided to give up, got off the locomotive and was on his merry way down the street.

Jeff 

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Posted by Lithonia Operator on Wednesday, November 27, 2019 9:26 PM

For the engineers and conductors out there:

How often, when your train is stopped, do "civilians" decide to use the front or rear decks as a way to get across to the other side?

You'd have to be pretty dumb to try this on the front deck of a lead unit. But all those other decks would be pretty inviting to an impatient pedestrian. To be honest, I could see myself doing this. But I do have some experience on trains.

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Posted by Lithonia Operator on Wednesday, November 27, 2019 9:30 PM

jeffhergert

 

 
SD70Dude

 

 
Lithonia Operator
Leo_Ames

The door was a FRA mandate at one time. It was meant to let someone inside the cab see if the door was going to strike someone standing outside on the platform.

I believe the official FRA term for the little door window was "sight glass", if I remember correctly what I've read before in FRA regulations. 

With 2-man crews, and the engineer at the throttle, who exactly was the FRA expecting to be hanging out on the platform when the conductor opened the door?

 

 

A trespasser with a weapon?  (we operate in some pretty bad neighborhoods)

 

 

 

When we put together trains in the yard in Council Bluffs, often with the really large trains, we end up blocking crossings for quite a while.  The really large ones are up the 12th street line in an older residential area.  (My record is blocking all but one crossing in town while waiting for air to build up to do the final air test.)

Recently, a fellow engineer related his latest episode on the 12th st. line.  It was late at night, about 1/2 way up the line, when a somewhat inebriated guy came up to the side of the engine and started 'conversing' with the engineer in a rather loud and profane way.  He then proceeded to 'relieve' himself on the side of the locomotive.

Up to now, the engineer had been amused by this interaction with the public.  Then this 'gentleman' decided to climb up on the front deck.  The engineer went down and locked the inside door as the person pounded on the outer door.  Luckily he was too many sheets to the wind to operate the simple outer door handle.  (The guy outside, not the engineer.) 

By the time the engineer got back in his seat, the guy had decided to give up, got off the locomotive and was on his merry way down the street.

Jeff 

 

I assume there is a toilet in the nose structure, right? So there is a door aft of the "head," which can be locked from the cab side (and from within?), in addition to the nose door itself?

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Posted by jeffhergert on Wednesday, November 27, 2019 9:52 PM

Yes.  There is an entry way, if you wiil, between the outer door and the inner door.  That inner door is capable of beeing locked from within.  Even some outer nose doors can be locked from within.

The toilet compartment is actually inside the inner door. Not between the inner and outer nose doors.

Jeff

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Posted by zardoz on Thursday, November 28, 2019 4:16 PM

Lithonia Operator
How often, when your train is stopped, do "civilians" decide to use the front or rear decks as a way to get across to the other side?

You would likely be amazed watching commuters getting off the train at their station stop and immediately crawl underneath to get to the parking lot on the opposite side of the platform.

I used to keep a minimun service application on the brakes when I'd stop at certain stations, solely for the purpose of releasing the brakes (which causes air noises under the coach that really spooks them) immediately prior to departure, in order to clear out the potential Derwood candidates; it also was a minor source of amusement for us--sickos that we are.

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Posted by jeffhergert on Thursday, November 28, 2019 5:11 PM

zardoz

 

 
Lithonia Operator
How often, when your train is stopped, do "civilians" decide to use the front or rear decks as a way to get across to the other side?

 

You would likely be amazed watching commuters getting off the train at their station stop and immediately crawl underneath to get to the parking lot on the opposite side of the platform.

 

I used to keep a minimun service application on the brakes when I'd stop at certain stations, solely for the purpose of releasing the brakes (which causes air noises under the coach that really spooks them) immediately prior to departure, in order to clear out the potential Derwood candidates; it also was a minor source of amusement for us--sickos that we are.

 

I've seen people crawl under or climb over the couplers (not in the approved manner) when we were stopped.  Once in Council Bluffs, we were in van going from the UP's South yard to the North (exCNW) yard, stopped at a crossing while the Iowa Interstate was pulling a cut out of the UP yard taking it across town to theirs.  It was moving between 5 and 10 mph when a jogger came down the street.  While the train was moving, he climbed over the coupler and continued on down the street.

It's actually amazing that when putting trains together on the 12th street line that we don't get more pulled pins or closed angle thingys.

Jeff 

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Posted by rdamon on Monday, December 2, 2019 10:59 AM

Seems like someting similar to a residential door peephole would be a solution. 

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Posted by zugmann on Monday, December 2, 2019 11:46 AM

rdamon
Seems like someting similar to a residential door peephole would be a solution.

Knocking on the door a few times before opening it works.

 The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer or any other railroad, company, or person.

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Posted by Lithonia Operator on Tuesday, December 3, 2019 3:18 PM

What is the approved method of climbing over the couplers? Do the ends of cars still have narrow platforms, and a grabrail, for getting across?

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Posted by jeffhergert on Tuesday, December 3, 2019 7:58 PM

Lithonia Operator

What is the approved method of climbing over the couplers? Do the ends of cars still have narrow platforms, and a grabrail, for getting across?

 

Not climbing over the couplers is the approved method.  That is, you don't touch the couplers with any part of your body while crossing over.  And the cut lever is not a step. 

You climb up onto the car on the side ladder or grab irons at the end of the car.  Go around the corner of the car and use the platform and grab irons to go across.  Go around the other corner and climb down using the ladder/grab irons on that side.

Most modern cars have a cross over platform and grab irons, at least on one end.  Some hoppers/coal gons are like that.  Some older hoppers just have the grab irons, no actual platform.  It's still allowed to use them to cross over.  There are some, like auto racks, that don't have any way to (legally) cross over.

Jeff

 

  

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Posted by jeffhergert on Tuesday, December 3, 2019 8:00 PM

zugmann

 

 
rdamon
Seems like someting similar to a residential door peephole would be a solution.

 

Knocking on the door a few times before opening it works.

 

Most of the doors on the inside have a sticker or stencil saying to "open with caution" or something to that effect.

Jeff

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Posted by SD70Dude on Tuesday, December 3, 2019 11:43 PM

jeffhergert
zugmann
rdamon
Seems like someting similar to a residential door peephole would be a solution.

Knocking on the door a few times before opening it works.

Most of the doors on the inside have a sticker or stencil saying to "open with caution" or something to that effect.

Jeff

The one on the newer EMD's is very easily turned into a cartoon of a hockey player tripping over the puck.

You can see the sticker just after the 10:30 mark in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQ64pwo-Y6o

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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