New GE Power for NS

[NSDash9]

Norfolk Southern will be receiving an order of 50 new locomotives later in 2016 from General Electric, which will include 47 ET44AC Tier 4 certified units and 3 ES44AC Tier 4 credit units. The ET44AC's will be numbered in a new series as NS 3600-3646 and the ES44AC units will be numbered 8166-8168.

 

Chris Toth
NSDash9.com
Also visit my NSDash9 facebook page for the latest NS power updates.

[D.Carleton]

Will this mean a curbing/modification of their rebuilding ambitions?

[NorthWest]

Thanks.

Almost tempers your news of the recent scrappings.

 Interesting that they are only getting three credit units. What's the ratio of credit units to earlier units?

It's amazing that we've already moved on to Phase II ET44ACs. The shorter protrusion looks so much better.

[Leo_Ames]

Didn't think that they'd stay away for long. 

I wonder if they'll also place an early order for EMD's Tier 4 product to test the waters. Given their recent interest in the SD70ACe line which seems to have gone over very well, I assume that they'll be an early adapter for that one as well and be eager to put it through its paces.

And this probably isn't the best place for it, but I think your excellent NS roster missed a unit. Noticed it when I was trying to account for every GP50 recently and noticed that LNG slug #799 wasn't listed.

http://www.altoonaworks.info/rebuilds/ns_cngslugtender.html

[joho2486]

The SD70ACu and AC44CM rebuilds should continue unabated but the fact they're scrapping some C40-8 units should be a sign that the 8.5 rebuilds are probably being curbed.

[cat992c]

Very disappointed to here this.NS should give thsi business to  Electro Motive Division  instead of helping the rich get rich.What a travesty!

[zugmann]

cat992c

Very disappointed to here this.NS should give thsi business to  Electro Motive Division  instead of helping the rich get rich.What a travesty!

 

Because helping the rich people that run cat/progress get richer is any different?

 

[BaltACD]

cat992c

Very disappointed to here this.NS should give thsi business to  Electro Motive Division  instead of helping the rich get rich.What a travesty!

GE has a Tier 4 approved product to sell - TODAY.  EMD has yet to get their product approved.

[Entropy]

There maybe more to this than just an order for locomotives.

What involvement did GE have in the Dash 8.5 program? that has subsequent "emissions issues" and has been terminated? That program was planned for 84 units. 

Was there a deal made? Since the Dash 8.5 program won't move forward we can sell you 50 Tier 4's instead (?)

[Leo_Ames]

Haven't ever seen any mention of GE being involved, unlike the AC44C6M project. 

[Entropy]

Someone provided the EFI system, calibration file and I assume electrical locker modifcations? They had the idea Dash 8.5 would pass Tier II EPA; I don't believe the GE 7FDL16 ever made it past Tier 1 in production?

[Leo_Ames]

I'm not familiar with the inner details. GE very well could be involved. It just hasn't been publicized like the AC44C6M deal has been.

NS no doubt has solicited the help of some outside sources with all of their major rebuilding programs. Like you said, they can't very well do some of this stuff in-house. So it seems safe to bet that GE has a certain level of involvement here in one way or another. 

Maybe someone like NSDash9, Northwest, M636C, and some of our other locomotive experts can chime in with a definitive answer on GE's role, if any, in the Dash 8.5 program. 

[NorthWest]

I have no actual information, but since called, my guess is not much (other than an advisory role).

I base this on a variety of things, primarily differences between the Dash 8.5-40CWs and AC44C6Ms.

1. The AC44C6Ms rebuilt by GE/AMP have a new GE-designed wide cab. The Dash 8.5-40CWs have the NS RLS cab, with the exception of 8505, which has an earlier generation wreck-replacement cab that RLS probably just had sitting around. Note side window differences.

2. The Dash 8.5-40CWs have an NS-designed split cooling radiator system, and not the GE-designed wet radiator modification system or thicker radiator wing of later Dash 9s.

3. Problems. GE knows how to get the FDL up to Tier II standards, and it appears that these units have had problems doing so. My take is that this is an attempt to get to Dash 9 performance without replacing enough of the Dash 8 to make it successful. 

None of this is conclusive, but it certainly seems that rebuilds that have major builder imput have had (with the exception of the ECOs, which NS largely did) builder-designed cabs and other details (AC44C6M, SD70ACU).

[EMD#1]

Or it could be that NS has accepted AC power as its preferred choice. Plus with all the boasting from EHH about how he could get rid of 300 locomotives on day one NS is trying to prove they can do the same. The Dash 8 fleet is in the worst shape and rebuilding them is not as easy as an SD40-2 or an SD60 simply due to parts availability.

[JACOB LONGANECKER]

I wonder if the Dash 8.5 program ended up driving down the price GE was asking for newer units?

[joho2486]

In a short answer yes.  Who knows if this current deal will keep NS from rebuilding the Dash 9s (my belief is no when NS on its 1st Qtr Conference Call said they're dedicated to rebuilding their Dash 9 fleet).

[M636C]

Entropy

Someone provided the EFI system, calibration file and I assume electrical locker modifcations? They had the idea Dash 8.5 would pass Tier II EPA; I don't believe the GE 7FDL16 ever made it past Tier 1 in production?

 

While GE didn't continue to sell the 7FDL-16 as a locomotive engine meeting Tier II, they continued to sell the FDM as a marine engine (called the V-228) as Tier II amd Tier III certified. I assume the difference from railroad use was the amount of cooling available from the sea or river water through heat exchangers, compared to through an air radiator.

 

The FDL-16 is still sold in export markets where emissions are not regulated, as a locomotive engine with improved electronic injection and updated controls, which might help its fuel consumption.

 

However I believe that very few Dash 8 locomotives could be rebuilt without a new engine (or new crankcase at least) being fitted. In Australia these last from eight to ten years in Iron Ore traffic and sixteen to twenty years in geneal and intermodal use. Most Dash 8s would be beyond that time now and many of the crankcases will be suffering from cracking.

 

GE are happy to provide spares for any FDL engine (or EMD if you ask nicely) but the cost of a new crankcase makes a GE rebuild cost a lot more than one for an EMD unit.

 

In the Western Australian Pilbara, BHP Billiton were in 2004 putting 1960s SD40s into service with their original engines while Rio Tinto were replacing the crankcases on all of their ten year old Dash 9s.

 

The SD40s used a lot of fuel but they were cheap and available quickly when the Mining Boom hit. Theyv'e been replaced by new SD70ACe units and the SD40s were cut up.

 

M636C

[Leo_Ames]

How successful was the FDM? I never even heard of it until one went into the SS Kinsman Independent as she was being rebuilt for a return to service under new Canadian ownership in 2005.

She returned to service as the MV Voyageaur Independent with a 7FDM-16 EFI in her engine room rated at 4,100 hp at 1,050 rpm. 

[BNSF-3820]

I saw the first unit in this order, #3600, at GE Fort Worth this weekend.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/138382181@N06/26760688856/in/dateposted-public/

[zugmann]

Looks like it has a new style of number on the cab side.  Also the numbers are spaced out a bit more.  Older NS engines always had the numbers crammed close together, which combined with their font, could make them hard to read at times.  Much clearer on that engine.