Some photos of the BHP Billiton locomotives being scrapped, from Toad Montgomery.
beaulieu Thanks, I am already aware of all the circumstances re: HDL. CPM500 GDRMCo I think it's been missed by some here but it's reported in the local community that the 7 remaining AC60s and the initial 13 non-isolated cab ACes have indeed been sold to an overseas party, every indication pointing to the US. BHPB stipulated in the sales contracts that these units could not be sold locally and used for haulage so they were either to be scrapped here or sold O/S, the latter has appeared to have happened. The locomotives are currently stored in Port Hedland iirc, I think the name should give a clue as to how hard it'd be to get them onto a boat... Yeah, PORT Hedland. Seems to me that many cargo vessels arrive full and depart AUS empty. I suspect that the ACe's can 'easily' be 'freshened up' for resale at reasonable cost...with a number of possible buyers in the NA marketplace. Given that GE sued the mfr. of the HDL engine, I would wonder if the circumstances would be similiar. CPM500 The development of the HDL engine family was a joint venture between GE and Deutz. There were a lot of problems in the development of the new engine with a lot of money spent by both companies. Eventually Deutz said enough and quit funding the research. GE sued and won the rights to all the basic research and to all versions of the HDL design, including some variants that were never built. The HDL engine proved to be less than a steller design, but the basic research gave GE a head start on the design that became GE's EVO diesel engine.
Thanks, I am already aware of all the circumstances re: HDL.
CPM500 GDRMCo I think it's been missed by some here but it's reported in the local community that the 7 remaining AC60s and the initial 13 non-isolated cab ACes have indeed been sold to an overseas party, every indication pointing to the US. BHPB stipulated in the sales contracts that these units could not be sold locally and used for haulage so they were either to be scrapped here or sold O/S, the latter has appeared to have happened. The locomotives are currently stored in Port Hedland iirc, I think the name should give a clue as to how hard it'd be to get them onto a boat... Yeah, PORT Hedland. Seems to me that many cargo vessels arrive full and depart AUS empty. I suspect that the ACe's can 'easily' be 'freshened up' for resale at reasonable cost...with a number of possible buyers in the NA marketplace. Given that GE sued the mfr. of the HDL engine, I would wonder if the circumstances would be similiar. CPM500
GDRMCo I think it's been missed by some here but it's reported in the local community that the 7 remaining AC60s and the initial 13 non-isolated cab ACes have indeed been sold to an overseas party, every indication pointing to the US. BHPB stipulated in the sales contracts that these units could not be sold locally and used for haulage so they were either to be scrapped here or sold O/S, the latter has appeared to have happened. The locomotives are currently stored in Port Hedland iirc, I think the name should give a clue as to how hard it'd be to get them onto a boat...
Yeah, PORT Hedland. Seems to me that many cargo vessels arrive full and depart AUS empty.
I suspect that the ACe's can 'easily' be 'freshened up' for resale at reasonable cost...with a number of possible buyers in the NA marketplace.
Given that GE sued the mfr. of the HDL engine, I would wonder if the circumstances would be similiar.
CPM500
The development of the HDL engine family was a joint venture between GE and Deutz. There were a lot of problems in the development of the new engine with a lot of money spent by both companies. Eventually Deutz said enough and quit funding the research. GE sued and won the rights to all the basic research and to all versions of the HDL design, including some variants that were never built. The HDL engine proved to be less than a steller design, but the basic research gave GE a head start on the design that became GE's EVO diesel engine.
ML
Posted on the Australian website Railpage.com.au by "Toad" Montgomery, a local with good information sources:
""Scrapping of the SD40 and AC6000 units has started at metal recycling yard of Sell & Parker here at Wedgefield.
So far 6071 and 3087, 3093, 3096 and 3097 have come off second best against the hydraulic tin snips."
Wedgefield is an industrial area close to the BHP Billiton Boodarie locomotive depot (and not far from FMG's car dumpers.)
So we don't have to worry about shipping the AC6000s. There might still be a ship required for the SD70 ACe units.
M636C
CPM500 Yeah, PORT Hedland. Seems to me that many cargo vessels arrive full and depart AUS empty. I suspect that the ACe's can 'easily' be 'freshened up' for resale at reasonable cost...with a number of possible buyers in the NA marketplace. Given that GE sued the mfr. of the HDL engine, I would wonder if the circumstances would be similiar. CPM500
Port Hedland is pretty isolated and very few ships arrive there loaded and depart empty.
Port Hedland is the largest iron ore export port in the world. Ships wait outside empty in order to load there. That's with two iron ore exporters. A third is starting up. They also ship relatively small quantities of Salt and Manganese.
Specialised locomotive carrying vessels would leave empty, and you could arrange to use the ship that will arrive soon with eight SD90 MAC-H units to take away the 12 SD70ACe units and 7 AC 6000 CWs to the USA.
Of course someone might ask why eight 6000 HP units are being shipped in to Port Hedland while seven are being shipped out. That's because the owner of the seven won't sell them to the company buying the eight because they are competitors.
Given that all eight BHP Billiton AC 6000s had 16 cylinder GEVO engines with air to water intercoolers: I know because I saw and heard them when newly fitted: a quite different sound and shiny new exhaust stacks which I photographed - why is any history of the HDL relevant?
GDRMCoI think it's been missed by some here but it's reported in the local community that the 7 remaining AC60s and the initial 13 non-isolated cab ACes have indeed been sold to an overseas party, every indication pointing to the US. BHPB stipulated in the sales contracts that these units could not be sold locally and used for haulage so they were either to be scrapped here or sold O/S, the latter has appeared to have happened. The locomotives are currently stored in Port Hedland iirc, I think the name should give a clue as to how hard it'd be to get them onto a boat...
Wizlish And if THAT doesn't convince you there isn't much 'call' for unmodified 6000hp locomotives in the United States today... NRE wanted representatives of those two famous 'hangar queen' classes -- but not the more modern 6000s even at scrap value ... (Could it be that getting the locomotives from where Billiton had them to 'tidewater' and getting them aboard ship, or handling export paperwork, made enough of a cost difference?)
And if THAT doesn't convince you there isn't much 'call' for unmodified 6000hp locomotives in the United States today...
NRE wanted representatives of those two famous 'hangar queen' classes -- but not the more modern 6000s even at scrap value ...
(Could it be that getting the locomotives from where Billiton had them to 'tidewater' and getting them aboard ship, or handling export paperwork, made enough of a cost difference?)
To be fair, the C36-7s and SD50s were purchased in 1998, when the AC6000s were new and well before they were for sale.
GDRMCoThe locomotives are currently stored in Port Hedland iirc, I think the name should give a clue as to how hard it'd be to get them onto a boat...
Not to mention that the climate there approximates that on sunside of the planet Mercury this time of year...
VERY glad they aren't being scrapped.
Buslist CSSHEGEWISCH Leo_Ames Too bad, I figured they'd at least be exported back to North America. Highly unlikely due to the cost of shipping locomotives halfway around the world. Not so out of the question as in the past 3 used Australian built C36-7s and 5 Australian built SD50s were purchased by NRE and brought to the US.
CSSHEGEWISCH Leo_Ames Too bad, I figured they'd at least be exported back to North America. Highly unlikely due to the cost of shipping locomotives halfway around the world.
Leo_Ames Too bad, I figured they'd at least be exported back to North America.
Too bad, I figured they'd at least be exported back to North America.
Highly unlikely due to the cost of shipping locomotives halfway around the world.
Not so out of the question as in the past 3 used Australian built C36-7s and 5 Australian built SD50s were purchased by NRE and brought to the US.
FYI, the North American 6000 hp loco is a dead issue.
Apparently, successor to BHP Mining has retired their AC6000's and sold them for scrap.
So, if I'm following this correctly, the only 6000 horsepower units currently in the US are a few of each from EMD and GE in storage with their respective builders?
In regards to the CSX AC6000's (now CW46AC), how much of their lives have they spent in service as 6000 horsepower units? To my understanding, they were downrated once before (when using the HDL prime movers), a caption on a picture for one said they had all been stored at some point (I had not been aware of that), and now already are or all will be downrated again. How many years have they been both operational and 6000hp locomtives (with either prime mover)?
Daniel
Bryan Jones GDRMCo Uh, pretty sure the FMG SD90-Hs are still in operation. The latest issues of Western Rails have photos of these units running. Only 4 of the FMG units were delivered as 265H powered units, 901-904. #902 and 904 were repowered with 16-710's within a year of delivery. #901 and 903 have recently recieved 16-710's. FMG #905-909 recieved the 16-710's when rebuilt here in the US and never operated in Australia as 265H powered units. All are classed as SD9043MAC. FMG has also just purchased 8 additional units from EMD/Progress Rail. The units shipped out of Progress Rail in Mayfield,KY last week. All 8 retain the 6000hp 265H prime mover. These will recieve 16-710's rated at 4300hp at some point once they arrive in Australia, completing to SD9043MAC specs. With this order from FMG there will be no more than 4 or 5 of these former UP SD90MAC-H's left at Progress Rail. Bryan Jones
GDRMCo Uh, pretty sure the FMG SD90-Hs are still in operation. The latest issues of Western Rails have photos of these units running.
Only 4 of the FMG units were delivered as 265H powered units, 901-904. #902 and 904 were repowered with 16-710's within a year of delivery. #901 and 903 have recently recieved 16-710's. FMG #905-909 recieved the 16-710's when rebuilt here in the US and never operated in Australia as 265H powered units. All are classed as SD9043MAC.
FMG has also just purchased 8 additional units from EMD/Progress Rail. The units shipped out of Progress Rail in Mayfield,KY last week. All 8 retain the 6000hp 265H prime mover. These will recieve 16-710's rated at 4300hp at some point once they arrive in Australia, completing to SD9043MAC specs.
With this order from FMG there will be no more than 4 or 5 of these former UP SD90MAC-H's left at Progress Rail.
Bryan Jones
Getting information on FMG is relatively difficult due to the isolated location.
I did get some good information when the first four units arrived. Apparently 901 had been stripped for conversion to 16-710G3 at Juniata when the decision was taken to deliver the first four units with 265H engines. Possibly because of this, 901 was in very good condition and ran well. With the three others, 903 started up and ran, but 902 and 904 did not and may not have run in Australia with the 265H.
FMG is trying to expand production rapidly, partly to cover the debt funding in a time of declining iron ore prices. The greater the throughput, the higher the return on the investment.
There are relatively basic maintenance facilities available to FMG in Port Hedland and effectively no third party facilities. If it was intended to re-engine the SD90MAC-H units in the near future they would have been converted prior to shipping. I expect that FMG are planning to run the eight additional units with the 265H for a few years to meet the need for locomotives until things settle down and they can be converted like the others.
The FMG operation is isolated and has no connections to any other system and every train passes the locomotive maintenance facility in each direction. They were able to run 901 and 903 for some years and so may feel confident that they could run eight more units for as long as required. It would be easy to put the SD90MAC-H units on a regime of more frequent inspections if required.
GDRMCoUh, pretty sure the FMG SD90-Hs are still in operation. The latest issues of Western Rails have photos of these units running.
If I remeber correctly the 265-H engine is actually a little shorter than the 710's. I agree EMD must have had there reasons for the angled roof over the engine, but I do not know what it was.
If that...
Since the conversion never happened, we really don't know if the hood design around the engine compartment would've been modified with 45 degree sides during the process.
There doesn't seem an obvious reason why it would've had to match factory built H engined units, since there would seem to be actually more room inside if left squared off. Although EMD must've had their reasons for it which elude me as an outside observer, since angled sides would seem to be more expensive.
I seem to recall something different between 710 and H engine equipped units with the air reservoirs as well?
Thanks, Bryan Jones.
Caldreamer, the only exterior difference would be a different long hood design above the prime mover, with 45 degree sides and two stacks.
Going the other way, what would have to be done to upgrade from a 16- 710 4300 to prime move to a 6000 HP prime mover. I knpow the SD8043MAC were set up for this. Would there be any external diffences?
Thank you, Bryan Jones, for that detailed rundown.
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
In my early days of commuting on the Long Island H--l Road, the old diesel pulled rust bucket cars were horrific, but there were 2 pleasures; standing out on the back platform of the last car, and on the front platform behind the one or two GP38-2's rumbling along east bound every night, an amazingly calming sound. Even better was the sound - and sight of the FL9AC's for several years on the PJ line. Still can't believe they were scrapped.
There is a lot of inaccurate information in this thread regarding the various 6000hp units. Here is the rundown:
BHP Billiton AC6000CW's #6070-6077 have been retired by the railroad. #6070 was scrapped after suffering serious accident damage. All 8 units did recieve GEVO16 prime movers in place of the original HDL diesels.The surviving units have reportedly been sold to an known US buyer.
CP SD90MAC-H's #9300-9303 were retired by the railroad and all 4 units scrapped.
CSX AC6000CW's #600-699 and 5000-5016 all remain on the railroad and in service except for CSX #677 which was recently scrapped on-site following a wreck. The entire fleet has been repowered, with CSX #600-602 recieving 4400hp FDL prime movers. CSX #603-699 and 5000-5016 all recieved the 6000hp GEVO16 prime mover. CSX #600-602 recieved the FDL prime movers due to the fact they those units were preproduction models and there were differences with the cooling system found in those 3 units versus the standard production units. In November 2013 CSX began to derate the 6000hp units down to 4400hp for fuel conservation reasons. Along with derating the units they have also reclassed them from CW60AC to CW46AC or CW46AH; units with the CW46AH have been upgraded with the high tractive effort package while units classed as CW46AC have not recieved this upgrade as of yet. CSX #600-602 are classed as CW44AC, the same classification that CSX gives its standard GE AC4400CW units. CSX #602 is unique in that it retains its GE Hi-AD trucks similar to when it was first delivered. Sister units #600 and 601 both had these trucks swapped out early in life for GE's steerable truck design. The rest of the CSX AC6000CW fleet was delivered straight from the factory with the steerable trucks.
EMD SD90MAC-H II's EMDX 90 and 91- As of early 2014 #91 was confirmed to have been stripped to a nearly bare frame with only the cab and dynamic brake hatch remaining. #90 may have recieved this same treatment as well. Similarly the lone SD89MAC, EMD #92, recieved similar treatment. It was recently shipped from Mid America Car in Kansas City,MO to EMD in McCook,Illinois after having the battery boxes relocated to the opposite side of the frame and possibly other modifications. Apparently these units are going to be rebuilt in one form or another.
GECX AC6000CW's #6000-6002 remain in the test fleet at GE in Erie,PA. A recent photo showed the units stored out of service.
UP GE AC6000CW's #7500-7579- all 80 units remain on UP, however they did opt to repower them with 4400hp FDL prime movers and they were renumbered as UP #6888-6935 and 6937-6968 and reclassed from C60AC to C44/60AC.
UP SD90MAC-H #8500-8521 retired 2006 after having been renumbered as #8911-8931. #8500 remained owned by EMD and was not renumbered and returned to EMD as EMLX #8500. UP owned #8911-8931 outright and stripped certain parts for reuse in the SD9043MAC fleet while the remaining hulks were scrapped. Metro East Industries scrapped a number of the units for UP. The hulk of UP #8921 remained stored behind Jenks Shops in North LIttle Rock,Arkansas as of July 2013 and was listed as part of a group of retired units up for auction in the Fall of 2013. No confirmation as to the outcome of the auction, but the unit was listed as being unable to be moved so scrapping on-site would have been the only viable option. The EMLX #8500 mentioned earlier was returned to EMD along with the 40 Phase II units. It did see lease service, but is thought to have been scrapped at this point.
UP SD90MAC-H II #8522-8561 were retired by UP in late 2005-early 2006 after the lease on this group expired. The units were returned to EMD and were restenciled as EMLX. These 40 units along with the earlier EMLX #8500 saw lease service for several years with all 41 units spending a year on the KCS and smaller groups of 6-8 units each on the Wheeling & Lake Erie and the Buffalo & Pittsburgh RR's. The final lease assignment saw most of the 41 unit group working on Ferromex. Almost all were restenciled PRLX for Progress Rail around that time. The units were shipped to various locations for storage when the lease to Ferromex ended.
of the 41 EMDX/PRLX units, there are only 8 units left on the property at ProgressRail in Mayfield,KY as of April 2014. This is where the majority of the fleet met the torch. Out of those 41 units, 9 units were sold to Fortescue Metals Group (FMG) in Australia. 4 of those units were simply overhauled in-kind with plans to rebuild them to SD9043MAC specs at a later date due to an immeadiate need for power at the time. Those units were FMG #901-904. As of 2013 2 of those units had been repowered, while 2 still had 265H's but were stored. 5 additional units were rebuilt here in the US to SD9043MAC specs for FMG as #905-909. 4 EMD/PRLX units were sold to a group for a proposed repowering project with a 3rd party diesel though the project was eventually canceled. Those units had been stored in Maine and were sold for scrap earlier this year and shipped to a company in Chicago to be dismantled. One final unit was sold and is being used for a rebuild/repowering project for Cummins. The work is being performed by Sygnet Rail Technologies rebuilding the former SD90MAC-H II with a new Cummins QSK95 diesel rated at 4200hp. Cummins has also partnered with the Indiana Railroad who will be hosting the test unit, CECX #1919, for a 1 year test period.
When it comes down to it, there are no 265H powered SD90MAC's left in service.
Brooks,KY
carnej1 BaltACD Most CSX 6000 hp engines have been redesignated as CW46's from CW60's Really? They spent the money to rebuild most of the fleet with 16 cylinder GEVO engines rated at 6,000 HP and then de-rated them to 4600 HP? I imagine that is to reduce fuel consumption (akin to CSX modifying its remaining B40-8's to limit them to 2,000 HP)?
BaltACD Most CSX 6000 hp engines have been redesignated as CW46's from CW60's
Most CSX 6000 hp engines have been redesignated as CW46's from CW60's
Really?
They spent the money to rebuild most of the fleet with 16 cylinder GEVO engines rated at 6,000 HP and then de-rated them to 4600 HP?
I imagine that is to reduce fuel consumption (akin to CSX modifying its remaining B40-8's to limit them to 2,000 HP)?
Have never heard a kind word about the B40-8's from any engineer - no matter the configuration.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Yes the lone operational F40PH is used. It serves as the spare locomotive, so it is not used every day.
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