BaltACD The VRE contract was no 'let go'; Amtrak actively bid on it and was PO'd when they lost it. The still carry the animosity and will delay VRE whenever the opportunity presents itself.
The VRE contract was no 'let go'; Amtrak actively bid on it and was PO'd when they lost it. The still carry the animosity and will delay VRE whenever the opportunity presents itself.
Really? I think Congress should impose fines on Amtrak for giving priority to their own trains over other trains using their rails
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Buslist BaltACD NorthWest Buslist That is certainly an element of this, which is multifaceted. Part of the problem was that new ACS-64s would not arrive until sometime in 2018, well after the HHP-8 maintainence contract expires in (I think) July 2016. Chargers will be available sooner, won't rely on Amtrak for fuel, and will be able to operate on all lines. I just wonder if they will be able to make current schedules... Into this little conundrum one has to interject VRE. VRE, until several years ago, was operated and maintained by Amtrak personnel. VRE made the decision to put the operation and maintenance of their operation up for bid. Keolis won the bid and Amtrak's nose went out of joint when they weren't selected. From that point on Amtrak has done their best to monkey wrench things pertaining to VRE and MARC. When MARC decided to put their operations and maintenance up for bid as opposed to the services previously performed by Amtrak and CSX, Keolis was the initial selection, until a 'trail' was played up that Keolis was subsidary of the French National Railways which were 'decreed' to have been 'willing' collaborator with the Nazi's during the occupation of France duing WW II. After that political drama played itself out, Bombardier Transportation was selected to operate and maintain MARC's system. Needless to say, Amtrak, with its nose still out of joint, priced any services that they may have been requested to provide 'through the roof'; with that, MARC decided to go diesel and not request maintenance of electric locomotives from Amtrak. I think this all goes back to the Dave Gunn era when he declared that Amtrak should concentrate on running itself. Other contracts besides VRE were let go as in MBTA and IIRC Caltrains.
BaltACD NorthWest Buslist That is certainly an element of this, which is multifaceted. Part of the problem was that new ACS-64s would not arrive until sometime in 2018, well after the HHP-8 maintainence contract expires in (I think) July 2016. Chargers will be available sooner, won't rely on Amtrak for fuel, and will be able to operate on all lines. I just wonder if they will be able to make current schedules... Into this little conundrum one has to interject VRE. VRE, until several years ago, was operated and maintained by Amtrak personnel. VRE made the decision to put the operation and maintenance of their operation up for bid. Keolis won the bid and Amtrak's nose went out of joint when they weren't selected. From that point on Amtrak has done their best to monkey wrench things pertaining to VRE and MARC. When MARC decided to put their operations and maintenance up for bid as opposed to the services previously performed by Amtrak and CSX, Keolis was the initial selection, until a 'trail' was played up that Keolis was subsidary of the French National Railways which were 'decreed' to have been 'willing' collaborator with the Nazi's during the occupation of France duing WW II. After that political drama played itself out, Bombardier Transportation was selected to operate and maintain MARC's system. Needless to say, Amtrak, with its nose still out of joint, priced any services that they may have been requested to provide 'through the roof'; with that, MARC decided to go diesel and not request maintenance of electric locomotives from Amtrak.
NorthWest Buslist That is certainly an element of this, which is multifaceted. Part of the problem was that new ACS-64s would not arrive until sometime in 2018, well after the HHP-8 maintainence contract expires in (I think) July 2016. Chargers will be available sooner, won't rely on Amtrak for fuel, and will be able to operate on all lines. I just wonder if they will be able to make current schedules...
Buslist
That is certainly an element of this, which is multifaceted. Part of the problem was that new ACS-64s would not arrive until sometime in 2018, well after the HHP-8 maintainence contract expires in (I think) July 2016. Chargers will be available sooner, won't rely on Amtrak for fuel, and will be able to operate on all lines. I just wonder if they will be able to make current schedules...
Into this little conundrum one has to interject VRE. VRE, until several years ago, was operated and maintained by Amtrak personnel. VRE made the decision to put the operation and maintenance of their operation up for bid. Keolis won the bid and Amtrak's nose went out of joint when they weren't selected. From that point on Amtrak has done their best to monkey wrench things pertaining to VRE and MARC. When MARC decided to put their operations and maintenance up for bid as opposed to the services previously performed by Amtrak and CSX, Keolis was the initial selection, until a 'trail' was played up that Keolis was subsidary of the French National Railways which were 'decreed' to have been 'willing' collaborator with the Nazi's during the occupation of France duing WW II. After that political drama played itself out, Bombardier Transportation was selected to operate and maintain MARC's system. Needless to say, Amtrak, with its nose still out of joint, priced any services that they may have been requested to provide 'through the roof'; with that, MARC decided to go diesel and not request maintenance of electric locomotives from Amtrak.
I think this all goes back to the Dave Gunn era when he declared that Amtrak should concentrate on running itself. Other contracts besides VRE were let go as in MBTA and IIRC Caltrains.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
True, they are now used in Southern Sweden mainly, as the wheelslip problems are smaller there. Just my guessing, but they could add some weight to these neatly green Burlington Northern inspired locos. That is what they did to a six Rc4s to make them Rms years ago, with excellent results. Engineers still love driving Rm!
The software to lessen wheelslip might be akin to the one used on LOK2000s of NSB (Norway) and of VR (Finland): with less power used the wheelslip issue is smaller. Unfortunately you are likely to run behind of the schedule then, and risk stalling. For this they installed a new new button to override the computer and wheelslip control. So the locomotive will not stall, but the wheels and rails take the toll.
beaulieu BTW - John, the TRAXX locomotives are back on Green Cargo in Sweden, having received modifications and software upgrades by Bombardier.
BTW - John, the TRAXX locomotives are back on Green Cargo in Sweden, having received modifications and software upgrades by Bombardier.
For those not familiar with the issue, here is the original intended use for TRAXX F140 AC2, something that was not possible, so triple Rc4+Rm+Rc4 run these trains today. Picture by Hannu.
And of course the wheelslip/wheelwear issue in not for Bombardier only, it appears with all the manufacturers locomotives when the power that can be used in relation to weigth rises. Some European manufacturers seem to cope with minimizing the slip better than others.
Anyone who can get a complete copy of the MARC - charger contract could look at it and see if there is an option to convert some or all of the order from chargers to ACS-64s ?
Buslist I believe MARC's decision is more related to Amtrak's termination of the maintenance agreement on MARC's fleet as those locomotive models will no longer be present in Amtrak's fleet.
No problem everyone, and thank you carnej1. That information is relevant to the thread. I was merely concerned that more posts were going to be dragged up, since two had been. I'm sure that I have done this to someone myself, and probably will again.
Buslist NorthWest I have a polite request to make: Can everyone that is dragging up my posts from two years ago please read my post from yesterday? I am well aware that MARC is buying Chargers and wrote a couple posts a few months ago about the war with Amtrak over electricity costs that caused MARC to go all-diesel. I did not know that two years ago, and neither did anyone else. Perhaps others that read this forum were not aware of MARC's decision since I don't believe your comments were in this thread, perhaps I missed them, they deserve to be informed. I believe MARC's decision is more related to Amtrak's termination of the maintenance agreement on MARC's fleet as those locomotive models will no longer be present in Amtrak's fleet.
NorthWest I have a polite request to make: Can everyone that is dragging up my posts from two years ago please read my post from yesterday? I am well aware that MARC is buying Chargers and wrote a couple posts a few months ago about the war with Amtrak over electricity costs that caused MARC to go all-diesel. I did not know that two years ago, and neither did anyone else.
I have a polite request to make:
Can everyone that is dragging up my posts from two years ago please read my post from yesterday?
I am well aware that MARC is buying Chargers and wrote a couple posts a few months ago about the war with Amtrak over electricity costs that caused MARC to go all-diesel. I did not know that two years ago, and neither did anyone else.
Perhaps others that read this forum were not aware of MARC's decision since I don't believe your comments were in this thread, perhaps I missed them, they deserve to be informed. I believe MARC's decision is more related to Amtrak's termination of the maintenance agreement on MARC's fleet as those locomotive models will no longer be present in Amtrak's fleet.
Sincere apologies...I have sent a request to the moderator to delete the post.
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
blue streak 1 From another site problems of the HHP-8s 1. Wheel slip control is by truck not axle so any slip loose half the HP. 2. Max HP on dry track is 6000 due to derating. AEM-7DCs 5000 HP 3. latest computer interface is windows xp 32 bit. INFO Acela is windows 98 4. Requires PCACIA flash card that requires battery to retain flash info. All this will make one wonder once the lease maintenance period of the ACS-64s is over will obsolete software doom them ? Problems 1-4 would seem to preclude any outfit taking on the HHP-8s.
From another site problems of the HHP-8s
1. Wheel slip control is by truck not axle so any slip loose half the HP.
2. Max HP on dry track is 6000 due to derating. AEM-7DCs 5000 HP
3. latest computer interface is windows xp 32 bit. INFO Acela is windows 98
4. Requires PCACIA flash card that requires battery to retain flash info.
All this will make one wonder once the lease maintenance period of the ACS-64s is over will obsolete software doom them ?
Problems 1-4 would seem to preclude any outfit taking on the HHP-8s.
5. AAdd reason 5 There is an electrical part that needs cooling but leaks glycol and once the level gets too low WHAM - OH. Never has the problem been fixed. Suspect expansion and cooling stresses the container seams.
Plus with SEPTA getting up to 17 ACS-64s the maintenance base becomes bigger.
The main problem with the HHP-8s was the computer problems that resulted when multiple catenary systems and voltages panicked the computers. MARC's units have done better because they don't have to deal with this to the same degree that Amtrak did. They did have their design flaws, some of which were resolved, some of which weren't.
The big thing that doomed them were the small size of class, and their uniqueness. Parts supply became difficult to maintain, and the long mail and express trains that they were ordered for vanished soon after they were built. The AEM-7s needed replaceing, and it was simply easier and more cost effective to replace the HHP-8s too. Presumably, the HHP-8s could have been rebuilt with newer computers, but it wasn't seen as cost effective to do so. Many freight locomotives have computers replaced at heavy rebuild intervals.
Their future is storage until the lease is up, and then presumably scrap. Hopefully one is preserved.
Regarding the ACS-64s, they are a larger class so it will be easier to maintain their parts supply, particularly if they have much in common with the Vectrons and Chargers in terms of electronics. The lessons of the HHP-8 are important, though.
NorthWest D.Carleton I have no insider knowledge but it would be interesting if Siemens could do something similar for the HHP-8s. I wonder if they will simply be purchased by a commuter operator, like SEPTA, NJT, SLE, or, more likely, MARC.
D.Carleton I have no insider knowledge but it would be interesting if Siemens could do something similar for the HHP-8s.
I wonder if they will simply be purchased by a commuter operator, like SEPTA, NJT, SLE, or, more likely, MARC.
I believe MARC is committed to go all diesel to end the need for two different fleets of locomotives.
daveklepper Does anyone have the real information on this? Thought the technology was the same as used in Acela. Why are they regarded as lemons and why have not the problems been fixed?
Does anyone have the real information on this? Thought the technology was the same as used in Acela. Why are they regarded as lemons and why have not the problems been fixed?
For the record they are Alstom locomotives. They are somewhat different from the Acelas which are basicly tried and true TGV power cars.
aegrotatio "Currently 12.6 days between unscheduled shop visits" and have "high per-unit support cost." That sounds pretty horrid to me. This is according to Amtrak Fleet Strategy, February, 2010, pp. 21.
True, that is bad. Have they gotten better since 2010?
aegrotatioEven more interesting is an option to use HHP-8 to create additional Acela trainsets, on pp. 42: "Investigate the possibility of operating the two additional sets utilizing HHP-8 locomotives at each end in place of the Acela power cars. This approach will provide a use for some of the HHP-8 locomotives planned to be displaced by the new electric locomotives." But this seems odd based on their opinion of their relative unreliability.
You would still need new cars, and with the age and reliability of these units, I think this will not take place, and the Acela's will be replaced with that recent order along with the California HSR.
McKeyDefinitely! If I guess that the crash norms forced to hide the energy absorbing beams this way I might not be far from the truth?
Sorry, I seem to have missed this. I suspect you are right.
Definitely! If I guess that the crash norms forced to hide the energy absorbing beams this way I might not be far from the truth?
The coaches are also pretty smooth riding, too. The only thing I would do to the cab car is increase the angle of the front. I think that would improve the appearance.
Yes, another case of brick like design somewhat copied... :)
Astrid is an Alstom design and E464 a Bombardeir one. Maybe they have the same outward appearance designer? That often explains strange coincidenses in Europe.
NorthWest The BB 36000s look to me a lot like the Italian E.464s.
The BB 36000s look to me a lot like the Italian E.464s.
Me neither, but the Corail coaches, the same design as the dt, still look cool, don't they?
NorthWest That cab car though...can't say I am a fan.
That cab car though...can't say I am a fan.
He is a rare original colored and very comfortable Corail coach seen at Nice Ville, France. After several decades of intense use.
The BB 36000s look to me a lot like the Italian E.464s. That cab car though...can't say I am a fan.
To those not aware of what French class BB36000 "Astrid" looks like, here are a couple of pictures of it. This unit is owned by SNCF leasing company Akiem and it is operated by SNCF rival Thello (Veolia and Trenitalia in cooperation for overnight trains France- Italy). Here the unit is seen on the westernmost tracks of Paris Gere de Lyon station in France. Pictures by Ilkka Siissalo and taken 3 weeks ago.
Funnily, the locomotive indeed shares some external components with the older TGVs :)
NorthWest My understanding is that the BB 36000s and HHP-8s have the same electrical equipment. IIRC, the HHP-8s are rated slightly higher, and are significantly heavier (for crash regulations?). They may also have different computer systems, and this is where many of the problems have taken place. The other reason for replacement is the small class size, with just 15 on Amtrak.
My understanding is that the BB 36000s and HHP-8s have the same electrical equipment.
IIRC, the HHP-8s are rated slightly higher, and are significantly heavier (for crash regulations?).
They may also have different computer systems, and this is where many of the problems have taken place.
The other reason for replacement is the small class size, with just 15 on Amtrak.
Next tracks to the operator Thello's train was this rare specimen of SNCF Corail coach based driving trailer.
Aren't the HHP-8 units (and the Acela Power Cars) based on Alstom TGV Power Cars rather than any recent Bomberdier design? I seem to recallthe HHP-8s were related to the BB 36000 class locomotives of the SNCF.
While the Acela trains were supplied by Bombardier, they were basically Alstom power cars hauling Canadian LRC passenger cars.
Some of the body design where the vehicles differed from the French originals (suspension, body where collision requirements were concerned and couplers and coupler mounting) would have been Bombardier's responsibility.
M636C
Could we say that TRAXX is like an average car made without any modifications. let's say FIAT from Italy. Take it unmodified to Nordic countries with very cold and sometimes wet weather and you end up to difficulties.
Siemens Mobility may have fared poorly in _Germany_ , but look at some of the other markets: A real boom there! This is by no means one of the falling manufacturers.
I also believe that even Octeon platform IOREs might have competition from Siemens Vectron now, but of course time will tell. After what happened between Bombardier and its customers Green Cargo and CargoNet I doubt these will be putting any trust into Bombardier again in the near future. But Vectron's proven ability to work in the real north might mean a lot more units delivered there to handle any heavier and lighter tasks, heavy ore trains included.
That makes sense. Thanks!
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