Does anyone have the real information on this? Thought the technology was the same as used in Acela. Why are they regarded as lemons and why have not the problems been fixed?
I think you are discussing the HHP-8.
They had numerous teething problems, I think most are resolved.
IIRC, the main problem was with microprocessors. They apparently don't like extreme cold or heat.
They are also known to be extremely slippery, especially in leaf season.
They are more powerful than the Acelas, and haul more heavy loads. I believe the Acelas were only intended to have one power car, so the sets are quite overpowered.
Interestingly, the MARC units are successful and pretty reliable. Will this be were the Amtrak units go?
YOur explanaition makes sense, since the MARC units don't get to New England, especialliy Massachuseets, where the winter cold is colder than Maryland.
Electric irony: Back in 1996, when the HHP-8 was not much more than an idea that won a contract, it was spec'd to be able to haul 15 cars at 125 MPH. Needless to say it didn't quite live up to expectations. The new electrics testing right now, the ACS-64, was written to the same specs. Hopefully they'll get it right this time.
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
D.CarletonElectric irony: Back in 1996, when the HHP-8 was not much more than an idea that won a contract, it was spec'd to be able to haul 15 cars at 125 MPH. Needless to say it didn't quite live up to expectations. The new electrics testing right now, the ACS-64, was written to the same specs. Hopefully they'll get it right this time.
And the HHP-8s replaced the last of the E60Cs...from one "buggy" unit to another.
Although, I'm not sure if Amtrak has enough cars to run 15 car regionals. Maybe some more Metroliners can go the way of the cab cars and be turned into Amfleet-like coaches?
The new baggage and diner cars should allow the LD trains to go 125, they had been limited to 90, and are regularly 15 cars. This is where the HHP-8s spent most of their early lives.
I recently took a trip to the Northeast, one point was to see the AEM-7s in service before they are gone. I only saw about 4, and both my train trips were powered by HHP-8s! But I got enough pictures of both, so it is okay. I just found it a bit odd!
After Bombardier/Alstom got the American Flyer contract in 1996 Alstom came up with a rebuild package for the AEM-7s which brought us the AEM-7AC. I have no insider knowledge but it would be interesting if Siemens could do something similar for the HHP-8s.
D.Carleton I have no insider knowledge but it would be interesting if Siemens could do something similar for the HHP-8s.
I wonder if they will simply be purchased by a commuter operator, like SEPTA, NJT, SLE, or, more likely, MARC.
NorthWest D.Carleton I have no insider knowledge but it would be interesting if Siemens could do something similar for the HHP-8s. I wonder if they will simply be purchased by a commuter operator, like SEPTA, NJT, SLE, or, more likely, MARC.
I'm pretty sure that the computer microprocessors are the issue, with MARC having much more success.
Software upgrades are seemingly continuous on these units. So it is entirely possible that a rebuild program could be created, if cost effective.
IIRC Amtrak handles MARC maintenance on the electrics. With both the AEM-7s and HHP-8s gone from Amtrak, it will be interesting to see if this continues.
As I understand it, the MARC AEM-7s must be doubleheaded on the longer double deck consists that the HHP-8s can pull alone. This is why I wonder if the HHP-8s will join MARC's fleet.
The other unknown is the NJT ALP44 fleet, now stored. They are younger than all the AEM-7s.
AMT has the new dual modes, so I doubt they would go there.
They also may be simply scrapped, with a suitable number hopefully preserved.
So many possibilities, I am reluctant to speculate much more. We'll just have to wait and see.
Thanks, McKey. I found that very interesting. Good to see the Rcs surviving. Europe is becoming pretty much standardized in terms of locomotives, so variety is good. I just wish the Dm3s were still in service.
You're welcome. The climate here is "demanding", so the locomotives that can really do the work are easily seen from those that can't. Rc's some of which are now being built to Rd's are among the winners, despite their lack of ability to feed back the electricity to networks when braking or running downhill with a train.
Looks like we both enjoy the "Kings of Malmbana", the Dm3s!
NorthWest Thanks, McKey. I found that very interesting. Good to see the Rcs surviving. Europe is becoming pretty much standardized in terms of locomotives, so variety is good. I just wish the Dm3s were still in service.
To celebrate the two surviving Dm3s (not all the others are scrapped either) below are a couple of pictures of the real old red colored Dm3 that is prperty of the Luleå railway museum now. It is still in Running order and I think Jan and others can show it to those who are interested.
For those of you who also enjoy Dm3 pics, maybe you can look at these two links:
http://www.4rail.net/reference_sweden_gallery2_ellocos.php#vint_dm3
http://www.4rail.net/reference_sweden_gallery2_ellocos.php#mtab_dm3
All the pictures are quite a bit bigger than can be published on the discussion forum here.
And here is the most likely new king to be: the Siemens Vectron that can easily survive the conditions (unlike Bomabrdier TRAXX locos). Finnish VR just ordered 80 (+ 96) units of 6,4 MW / 8600 hp electric hybrids like in the picture with two diesels. (The unit in the picture was actually equipped with one diesel module at Innotrans 2012 during my visit there). Siemens has had a couple of years an arctic railroading lab with the Russians so the know how how to handle things is really starting to show now. (Siemens-Sinara owned Ural locomotives builds several hundred heavy electric locomotives yearly to RZD and if need be to a number of Russian private operators).
After too many words from me, here is finally the Vectron between the test drives sitting next to Kiruna railroad hotel (and station on its right though it is not visible). It looks deceptive small in the picture because its cab is enormous. And while this is no match to the sister American ACS64 streamlined design, I'm starting to get used to the Vectron looks too.
Thanks for posting the pictures and links, I enjoyed them.
As for the ASC64, I'm not a big fan of the headlights, but they'll probably grow on me. However, not while the AEM-7s still live!
The Vectrons are also not my favorite, but they are at least different than the ubiquitous bodyshells used on the DBAG 101s, TRAXXs, ALP-46s, ES64Fs, Korail 8000s, etc.
(I find it interesting that both the TRAXXs and early Siemens EuroSprinters use an almost identical body. So much for variety.)
As with any class though, once they are near the end of their lives, I will like them much more. Change is constant, and we miss what is gone once our memories erase the bad parts.
This is also an issue that puzzled me for years, until I discussed this with my friend Ilkka. He told how the product lines were initially one and the same! In the 1990s restructuring it looks like factories wen't here and there and the big players got what they could. Sometimes with little logic in it. This lead to the product lines becaming fractured, the way some smaller lines still are.
Another issue is that TRAXX and Eurosprinter are / were German products, so DBAG played big part in defining their details, hence the similar looks.
NorthWestI find it interesting that both the TRAXXs and early Siemens EuroSprinters use an almost identical body. So much for variety.
To show the similarity in a striking level, look at these two locos: can you figure out by the looks which was made by Siemens and which Bombardier? TRAXXes still look very much like this, but Siemens early on took somewaht different design route, first with ribbed sides and then more and more components.
Bet you cold not? No worries, nor could I just 2 years ago.
For the correct answer, please look here: http://www.4rail.net/reference_denmark_gallery2.php#dbs_ceg
And here is something magnificent from Siemens. I've never seen this locomotive type come out of occasional severe crashes anything but totally unharmed looking! So this is a kind of "unbreakable" Siemens locomotive, Eurosprinter ES64F4 (ES for Eurosprinter, 64 6400 kw / 8580 hp, F4 4 electrical systems as a standard, room for 4 pantographs on the rooftop). Of course this set of features made the ES64F4 more expensive than the competition, so only capital intensive operators and leasing companies could initially benefit from these locos. Now they are quite wide spread to heavier than normally transportation, just like the Vectrons now, these are stronger machines than the market leader (cheaper) TRAXXes.
Above the still Railion colored (previous name for DB freight division) ES64F4 is taking trainorders for the next assignment in Duisburg, Germany while the next in line class 110 is waiting for its turn in line. Below another sister in MRCE leasing company colors is shown at the latest Innotrans fair in Berlin. Looks like this locomotive is OKd / has been used even for driving into Italy.
Sweden, being one of the most developed nations in Europe has these machines too. Here is a picture of one of the (ex. SBB) units bought by Hector Rail, which hauls a lot of heavy forest industry train to and from Central Europe through a set of tunnels and bridges. Picture by Gerry Putz.
Looks like I found another picture of the striking initial design similarity: here this summer the TRAXX on the left and ES64F4 (used in pool) are seen nose to nose at Hector Rail depot in Hallsberg, Sweden.
Once again, thanks. I think they were all based of the Adtranz DBAG Class 101. Thanks for the photos, the quality is great!
Besides the fluting, there are other differences, including grilles, etc. It is just like trying to tell one standard cab EMD from another, you've just got to know the key differences.
Knowing the road numbers is also very helpful.
Thanks.
Thrusting a jab, wanting no more than a nic of thought that, these esthetic criticicizms of the designs of these lovomotives, might be well based on the old, well; what?....1920''s, '30's, concept that form follows function.
The shape of a brick works
Adobe, red clay cinder-block, concrete....bricks do it.
Briick may have been superseded by re-bar,pre-stressed concrete, but for locomotive shapes, it works to contain the loco's components, Or maybe cast concrete locomotives.....absurd.....hope nobody came along..
Happy New Year
Yes, maybe so, but here is another Siemens Eurosprinter, basically very similar multipurpose locomotive that can run 230 km/h / 143 mph in regular service. This is an ES64U2/ES64U4 platform, more commonly known as "Taurus". Some pleople in Austria know it as "Mozart" because it in fact makes music when starting or stopping.
The shape has made this very popular indeed: despite the hefty price tag to compensate the high running speed this Eurosprinterversion of Siemens was manufactured maybe 500 locos before the discontinuation (because of the new European crash norms for higher speeds) in 2012. Since this is the only powerful main line loco for the higher speeds in Europe, the after market has since been quite active.
efftenxrfe Thrusting a jab, wanting no more than a nic of thought that, these esthetic criticicizms of the designs of these lovomotives, might be well based on the old, well; what?....1920''s, '30's, concept that form follows function. The shape of a brick works Adobe, red clay cinder-block, concrete....bricks do it. Briick may have been superseded by re-bar,pre-stressed concrete, but for locomotive shapes, it works to contain the loco's components, Or maybe cast concrete locomotives.....absurd.....hope nobody came along.. Happy New Year
Below a Taurus class 1116 of ÖBB has just brought Railjet train (ÖBB higher speed service) to Innsbruck and its windshield is being washed before continuing forward.
Moments later another Railjet is being pushed the other way by sister Taurus loco.
Below, another Taurus registered to German class as 182 is pulling a regional / local passenger service with double decked coaching in a blizzard in Germany. Red looks quite in place on this locomotive, doesn't it?
And another Berlin view from the past fall.
Another one picture of one of my favorite railroads, Hector Rail with their class 242 Taurus loco in Stockholm, Sweden. Even gray is quite ok, on this locomotive.Plus another picture with Veolia "Snälltåg" in Göteborg on the Swedish west coast. Picture by Gerry Putz.
Plus a couple of more from Hamburg, Germany. Fistr the Wiener Lokalbahn unit waiting for the colors. Below it Taurus is handling a broken down TRAXX loco.
Since operators and other people wish to see streamlined units in the future two, the competitors to Siemens created a couple that more of less match the criteria. Below the ZNLE and Skoda view to the subject.
Hopefully I managed to prove, at least partly, that brick can be designed not to look like a brick ;)
The Taurus' actually look pretty good.
As for bricks, very little beats the DBAG Class 143.
I think that the Re 620 and Re 420 still are some of the best looking in Europe, as well as the Rcs. The Re 460s aren't bad, either.
Any impression that I criticize locomotive designers,for the brick shape, definitely not the designer's nor the the tech's, but the stylists, for the brick shape....GE's MILW electrification, likewise . N&W over its summit and tunnel, Pennsy to Gotham under the Hudson River.... DD1's.
Bricks...
Makes little esthetic sense but for a Century, containing stuff inside an elongated box....worked, For example, Milw 1909 Elerctric's , Pennsy, NH, LIRR primitive electrics and diesel electrics, CNJ 1000, CN's '30's era diesels.... bricks or...shoe boxes on wheels.
Well the space between the cabs is going to look brick-like due to the requirements for all the electrical equipment, plus the central walkway. On all modern electric locomotives the Transformer is between the Trucks (Bogies) in the space occupied by the fuel tank on North American freight locomotives. As for the Aerodynamic styling of the Taurus locomotives (Siemens models ES64U, ES64U2, and ES64U4) they exist mainly because of the OeBB (Austrian Federal Railways) wanted a Universal Service Locomotive. A locomotive that could operate passenger service in the daytime and freight at night. It didn't work out that way since with the coming of Pan-European freight operations freight trains would be running almost as much during the day as at night. In practice the OeBB has split their fleet into freight locomotives, and passenger locomotives, with minimal reassignments between pools. DB was buying Siemens model ES64F locomotives (DB Class 152) as their heavy freight locomotives, but ran into trouble getting them certified for operation in Austria. So they canceled the last 25 ES64F locomotives and had Siemens build 25 ES64U2 locomotives instead (DB Class 182). All the Taurus bodied Eurosprinters were built for one of two types of Operators, either Government owned entities for whom cost isn't that important, or Leasing companies for whom customer flexibility was most important.
I suspect that the reason that the Bombardier TRAXX locomotives had trouble with conditions in Northern Sweden and Norway is due to Bombardier being unwilling to make major design modifications at a time when they had a nearly two-year backlog of orders for the standard TRAXX locomotives, The IORE locomotives built for MTAB don't seem to have problems with winter weather. These are non-production line built locomotives with a corresponding premium pricetag. When Siemens started the Vectron line of locomotives, Siemens was on the verge of being out of the locomotive building business, similar to the situation with EMD in the US. Production of the ES64B2 locomotives for the SNCB was nearing the end and also the order for 50 ES64F4 locomotives for MRCE. They had no order backlog whatsoever. They built 5 ES64U4 locomotives on speculation, then closed the production line for this model at Linz, Austria. Only the production of High-speed trainsets was keeping Siemens in the Heavy-rail side of the business. Transit (LRVs) was doing ok. Siemens naturally had every incentive to try and solve the problem of cold weather operation plaguing TRAXX in Northern Scandinavia.
That makes sense. Thanks!
Could we say that TRAXX is like an average car made without any modifications. let's say FIAT from Italy. Take it unmodified to Nordic countries with very cold and sometimes wet weather and you end up to difficulties.
Siemens Mobility may have fared poorly in _Germany_ , but look at some of the other markets: A real boom there! This is by no means one of the falling manufacturers.
I also believe that even Octeon platform IOREs might have competition from Siemens Vectron now, but of course time will tell. After what happened between Bombardier and its customers Green Cargo and CargoNet I doubt these will be putting any trust into Bombardier again in the near future. But Vectron's proven ability to work in the real north might mean a lot more units delivered there to handle any heavier and lighter tasks, heavy ore trains included.
Aren't the HHP-8 units (and the Acela Power Cars) based on Alstom TGV Power Cars rather than any recent Bomberdier design? I seem to recallthe HHP-8s were related to the BB 36000 class locomotives of the SNCF.
While the Acela trains were supplied by Bombardier, they were basically Alstom power cars hauling Canadian LRC passenger cars.
Some of the body design where the vehicles differed from the French originals (suspension, body where collision requirements were concerned and couplers and coupler mounting) would have been Bombardier's responsibility.
M636C
My understanding is that the BB 36000s and HHP-8s have the same electrical equipment.
IIRC, the HHP-8s are rated slightly higher, and are significantly heavier (for crash regulations?).
They may also have different computer systems, and this is where many of the problems have taken place.
The other reason for replacement is the small class size, with just 15 on Amtrak.
To those not aware of what French class BB36000 "Astrid" looks like, here are a couple of pictures of it. This unit is owned by SNCF leasing company Akiem and it is operated by SNCF rival Thello (Veolia and Trenitalia in cooperation for overnight trains France- Italy). Here the unit is seen on the westernmost tracks of Paris Gere de Lyon station in France. Pictures by Ilkka Siissalo and taken 3 weeks ago.
Funnily, the locomotive indeed shares some external components with the older TGVs :)
NorthWest My understanding is that the BB 36000s and HHP-8s have the same electrical equipment. IIRC, the HHP-8s are rated slightly higher, and are significantly heavier (for crash regulations?). They may also have different computer systems, and this is where many of the problems have taken place. The other reason for replacement is the small class size, with just 15 on Amtrak.
Next tracks to the operator Thello's train was this rare specimen of SNCF Corail coach based driving trailer.
The BB 36000s look to me a lot like the Italian E.464s. That cab car though...can't say I am a fan.
Yes, another case of brick like design somewhat copied... :)
Astrid is an Alstom design and E464 a Bombardeir one. Maybe they have the same outward appearance designer? That often explains strange coincidenses in Europe.
NorthWest The BB 36000s look to me a lot like the Italian E.464s.
The BB 36000s look to me a lot like the Italian E.464s.
Me neither, but the Corail coaches, the same design as the dt, still look cool, don't they?
NorthWest That cab car though...can't say I am a fan.
That cab car though...can't say I am a fan.
He is a rare original colored and very comfortable Corail coach seen at Nice Ville, France. After several decades of intense use.
The coaches are also pretty smooth riding, too. The only thing I would do to the cab car is increase the angle of the front. I think that would improve the appearance.
Definitely! If I guess that the crash norms forced to hide the energy absorbing beams this way I might not be far from the truth?
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.