Interesting!
http://fastlane.dot.gov/2009/09/norfolk-southern-999-demonstrates-green-commitment.html
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
If I were designing such a locomotive, I think I would include some form of automatic dynamic braking, such that dynamics would be the first choice for retarding progress, with wheel brakes kicking in only when the dynamics weren't capable of doing the job.
In theory, anyhow, this would prevent an engineer from doing all his braking on air, thus doing no regenerative braking. I would think that even in a yard/industrial situation, there would be opportunities for regenerative braking. Not if the engineer had to consciously switch over every time, though.
But I'm not a locomotive design engineer, and I may be way out in left field on that.
As for the acid - there's no question that it would be an environmental problem in the event of an incident causing leakage of the acid, but I suspect that said damage would be far less severe than the spillage of several thousand gallons of Diesel (not to mention the flammability factor).
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68If I were designing such a locomotive, I think I would include some form of automatic dynamic braking, such that dynamics would be the first choice for retarding progress, with wheel brakes kicking in only when the dynamics weren't capable of doing the job. In theory, anyhow, this would prevent an engineer from doing all his braking on air, thus doing no regenerative braking. I would think that even in a yard/industrial situation, there would be opportunities for regenerative braking. Not if the engineer had to consciously switch over every time, though.
tree68As for the acid - there's no question that it would be an environmental problem in the event of an incident causing leakage of the acid, but I suspect that said damage would be far less severe than the spillage of several thousand gallons of Diesel (not to mention the flammability factor).
One thing did not seem to be mentioned, and in my mind it could be a pretty significant hazard in working in switching situatuions. Being battery operated, it should be relatively quiet while it operates (aside from flange squeal, and the like). Would not the very, relative silence be a hazard to those working on the ground in the vicinity and along side of it? I know they use horn signals, but there seem to be alot of moves when the engineer simply notifies the appropriate crewman by radio, and those in the vicinity without radios could be caught by an unexpected movement of the engine or a cut of cars.
I know they use flashing lights in some cases on remote controled units, but , a constantly ringing bell could be construed as a health, safety hazard as well. An engine running fairly silently in a yard could be a real danger in my mind.
Anyone have any thoughts about this issue?
samfp1943One thing did not seem to be mentioned, and in my mind it could be a pretty significant hazard in working in switching situatuions. Being battery operated, it should be relatively quiet while it operates (aside from flange squeal, and the like). Would not the very, relative silence be a hazard to those working on the ground in the vicinity and along side of it? I know they use horn signals, but there seem to be alot of moves when the engineer simply notifies the appropriate crewman by radio, and those in the vicinity without radios could be caught by an unexpected movement of the engine or a cut of cars. I know they use flashing lights in some cases on remote controled units, but , a constantly ringing bell could be construed as a health, safety hazard as well. An engine running fairly silently in a yard could be a real danger in my mind. Anyone have any thoughts about this issue?
oltmannd Interesting! http://fastlane.dot.gov/2009/09/norfolk-southern-999-demonstrates-green-commitment.html
FYI, there's already a thread going about this in the "General Discussion" Forum..shouldn't we merge them?
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/156966.aspx
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
samfp1943and those in the vicinity without radios could be caught by an unexpected movement of the engine or a cut of cars.
A prime rule of railroading is to always expect a movement. Even if you know there should be no other movements because you know where all the rolling stock is, vigilance leads to staying alive.
A cut of moving cars several carlengths from the locomotive is deadly quiet. Beyond a certain distance you won't hear the locomotive anyhow.
If there are grades involved, there is often no engine noise beyond idling when starting rolling - gravity is providing the power.
On the list of potential hazards, the relative quietness would be fairly low, in my book.
If the loco is too quiet, fit it with one of those annoying OSHA beepers that they mandate on trucks, busses and construction equipment. Won't take much power, WILL get everyone's attention.
Chuck
These genset powers are unreliable junk! The battery powered version has a generator in the rear that makes more noise that a regular diesel power. The genset that has 3 diesel engines can't keep the traction motors on line. Neither one of these units can work a 12 hour shift of switching without breaking down. To make matter worse, the air conditioning cuts out after working 15 minutes.
Oh yes, I forgot to add that the generator must work almost constantly on the battery version to keep the batery charged. Therefore, it is not very quiet at all, considering the generator noise.
Most all of the locomotives, especially the widebodies, have both independent and dynamic braking. Now they are trying to bring in remote controlled units into some of the yards. The East Wayne yard in New Haven, IN, when I left there in 2004, had two of them, but one always had a tendenacy of breaking down. To me I think the Remote controlled units are very dangerous especially when approaching a railroad crossing. Although I do miss my 4 axle units.
trainbuff63
I agree with you 100%. Always be on the lookout for anything to happen. Being around the railroad since 1991, I have learned a great deal about safety. Our motto is "Safety First". I also have a roailroad sticker on the back of my personal vehicle from Operation Life Saver and one that says , I Break for Trains. I spent alot of years driving on the roads to and from the yards and I just wish everyone out there would learn to stop at all railroad crossings before they cross them. I have seen to many people get killed by trains and it is not a pretty sight, especially if you have to be one of the ones there to take pictures of it or even of a derailment. PLEASE, practice the Safety First rule.
joesap1 Oh yes, I forgot to add that the generator must work almost constantly on the battery version to keep the batery charged. Therefore, it is not very quiet at all, considering the generator noise.
Just to clarify, the NS BP-4 battery powered switcher that is the subject of this thread is not equipped with a generator. It is 100% battery powered and is charged with a cable from an electric source when not in use and also has regenerative braking when switching.Chris TothNSDash9.comClick here to visit/join the NSDash9.com facebook page
trainbuff63Most all of the locomotives, especially the widebodies, have both independent and dynamic braking. Now they are trying to bring in remote controlled units into some of the yards. The East Wayne yard in New Haven, IN, when I left there in 2004, had two of them, but one always had a tendenacy of breaking down. To me I think the Remote controlled units are very dangerous especially when approaching a railroad crossing. Although I do miss my 4 axle units. trainbuff63
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
petitnjAnd to be more clearer (sic), these locomotives are NOT BATTERY POWERED. They are coal powered and the battery is the intermediate (and lossy) storage system. This is a non solution to a problem already solved. We have power sources that could charge the batteries but coal dominates. I think those steam engine folks are behind all of this. It is a conspiracy and not a alternative.
petitnj And to be more clearer (sic), these locomotives are NOT BATTERY POWERED. They are coal powered and the battery is the intermediate (and lossy) storage system. [snip]
Actually, to be even more correct, these locomotives are ultimately NOT COAL POWERED either. They are solar and hence nuclear powered - the energy to create the coal came from the Sun, which is a thermonuclear furnace - and so the coal is also the intermediate (and lousy) storage system. The same is also true of diesel fuel oil.
Some advantages of this concept is that it can be powered by whatever source via the electric grid - it can be, but need not, be any of the coal/ natural gas/ fuel oil/ hydro/ solar/ wind/ methane/ fuel cell/ gerbil/ whatever else can be used to generate electricity - it's not tied to just coal.
But it can take advantageof the really low off-peak electric rates by recharging overnight, when a lot of the coal plants have to keep running anyway to stay hot to be ready to go the next day. May as well put that energy and emissions to a useful purpose - and if it can be done cheaper, so much the better.
- Paul North.
Yes, Paul. I just object to calling it Battery Powered. We are going to shift our energy use to electric systems and then wonder how we are going to get this power to urban areas to charge up all these batteries. It will be interesting to see how the economics of the battery storage locomotive work out.
I am also wondering if these things need a noise generator so people can hear them when they move. I am sure battery locomotives will have to have bells or beepers whenever they move.
What happens at the end of the batteries life? They are filled with toxic chemicals, which makes them hard to dispose of, especially if this idea catches on and other railroads begin using battery powered switchers? The environmentalists aren't going to like the results, whatever they are.
MERRY CHRISTMAS!
My understanding is that the NS BP-4 999 has 1,080 standard lead-acid truck batteries in it. So they will last for several years - I suppose one technical goal of the project is to find out how long that is and the load-discharge duty cycle, etc. - and then be replaced, just like the batteries in trucks or our cars.
Then, I believe that PbSO4 batteries are recycled*, to reuse the lead and the sulfuric acid-salt that are the result and the remains. I'm not conversant with the details, but they are no longer just tossed into sinkholes next to mobile home parks and their water wells - that's kind of a 'gallows humor' inside joke from this part of Pennsylvania, where we used to have many battery factories and lots of sinkholes from the limestone geology - the MHPs are still here, too.
I don't think the nationwide fleet will ever be all-battery - but I could see maybe a thousand such units, concentrated in urban areas and switching locations. I'm sure that as battery technology evolves, better, cheaper, and less environmentally damaging batteries will emerge.
The environmentalists will have to choose between exhaust emissions and noise from petroleum- fueled engines, or battery effects, etc. - can't have it both ways.
* EDIT: A Google search for "battery recycling" yielded this website, among many others: http://www.batteryrecycling.com/Battery+Recycling+Process So it seems to be a mature and accepted technology and process.
espeefoamerWhat happens at the end of the batteries life? They are filled with toxic chemicals, which makes them hard to dispose of, especially if this idea catches on and other railroads begin using battery powered switchers? The environmentalists aren't going to like the results, whatever they are. MERRY CHRISTMAS!
Flashlights are chemical power (except for the shakey ones). "Powered" means were did the electrical power first appear? That is, what energy source was used to make electrons move.
Lead-acid batteries are fully recycled at a rate higher than most other materials. The plastic becomes a new battery case and the lead becomes new grids and other lead chemicals. See: http://www.batterycouncil.org/LeadAcidBatteries/BatteryRecycling/tabid/71/Default.aspx
Back to trains. One of the problems with batteries is that their capacity is reduced at higher discharge rates. Crank that thing up to Run 8 and you will reduce the amount of energy drawn off the battery by about 30% compared to a slow discharge rate. That number increases as the batteries wear on.
petitnj Yes, Paul. I just object to calling it Battery Powered. We are going to shift our energy use to electric systems and then wonder how we are going to get this power to urban areas to charge up all these batteries. It will be interesting to see how the economics of the battery storage locomotive work out. I am also wondering if these things need a noise generator so people can hear them when they move. I am sure battery locomotives will have to have bells or beepers whenever they move.
Maybe I'm alone here, but I would LOVE a little quiet goat to switch my shop with. The lack of noise is a nothing but a good thing from a safety standpoint. I love it when we had an old CNW 8500 with a batt. jog feature so we could switch a house with out filling it with smoke or hearing all that clattering all the time. just my not so humble thoughts
I can not see what the foamers on here are so worry about the engine being silent, it will not in any way cause them any problem as they will never see this thing at a crossing and if it becomes a problem for them its because they are treaspassing in a yard where they are not supposed to be anyways. railroaders dont have any problems with it as most generally when im crossing tracks in the yard im looking both directions because a shove move has the engine on the opposite end from me and those cars are not making a sound.
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