Heavily smoking GEVO

[blue streak 1]

After contemplating this thread I've noticed that the CSX freights passing by are over powered when using GEVOs. Because I am not in a heavy throttle area I cannot tell but it appears that they are running at a lower throttle setting to save the turbos. Any of you CSX people know??

[creepycrank]

We are off topic still. Why don't you start a new post on how the EPA changed my life or something. I'm still waiting for GE's helpful hints on turbo troubleshooting. I guess that those who would know are up to their ... ah, armpits in alligators right now.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

edbenton

Randy Stahl

edbenton

By the time they get thru replacing Everything try closer to 80,000,000 in DIRECT costs.  Not to mention the fact that the GEVO's will be considered the LEPER of the locomotive world.  GE will have trouble giving them away for years.  Consider this problem like the ones EMD had with the 50 series.  However GE is being better on taking care of it and more proactive on the fixes not being secretive about the issue.  All GE uses for the aircraft engines is a titatuim alloy shaft.  If the stupid idiots that are in Washington and in the Boardrooms would bring back Heavy Industry into this Nation most of these problems we are seeing would not be happening.

 

 

Start by putting the EPA on a shorter leash

Not going to happen with the Current group of Tree Huggers in Power.

I like breathing clean air, so let's hope that the EPA never gets a shorter leash.

[edbenton]

Randy Stahl

edbenton

By the time they get thru replacing Everything try closer to 80,000,000 in DIRECT costs.  Not to mention the fact that the GEVO's will be considered the LEPER of the locomotive world.  GE will have trouble giving them away for years.  Consider this problem like the ones EMD had with the 50 series.  However GE is being better on taking care of it and more proactive on the fixes not being secretive about the issue.  All GE uses for the aircraft engines is a titatuim alloy shaft.  If the stupid idiots that are in Washington and in the Boardrooms would bring back Heavy Industry into this Nation most of these problems we are seeing would not be happening.

 

 

Start by putting the EPA on a shorter leash

Not going to happen with the Current group of Tree Huggers in Power.

[creepycrank]

Well we're getting off topic. I wonder if you railroad types, especially shop forces could tell us what the GE trouble shooting guide has to say about what to look for if the exhaust gets a little smoky and how to check a turbo(not running) for bearing clearance such as end play( thrust bearing wear) and side-to-side clearance if any. I was wondering about these smoky locomotives progressing many miles without any one of the crew noticing the smoke and the engine itself not shutting down or the computer seriously derating the engine to solve the low boost pressure/smoke problem. I'm not sure but on ships the engineer can get in serious trouble in some areas for excessive smoke but the captain on the bridge should be watching out for that. There's plenty of people in the engineroom to deal with it. The locomotive engineer is undoubtedly focusing his attention well forward to deal with unexpected obstacles.

[Randy Stahl]

edbenton

By the time they get thru replacing Everything try closer to 80,000,000 in DIRECT costs.  Not to mention the fact that the GEVO's will be considered the LEPER of the locomotive world.  GE will have trouble giving them away for years.  Consider this problem like the ones EMD had with the 50 series.  However GE is being better on taking care of it and more proactive on the fixes not being secretive about the issue.  All GE uses for the aircraft engines is a titatuim alloy shaft.  If the stupid idiots that are in Washington and in the Boardrooms would bring back Heavy Industry into this Nation most of these problems we are seeing would not be happening.

 

 

Start by putting the EPA on a shorter leash

[enr2099]

 

oltmannd

enr2099

 I'd like to see the big SD's go down our Steveston Branch, they'd snap the rail like a twig. The GP's are too heavy.

An SD50 has lower axle loads than a GP40-2. 390,000 over 6 axles is 65,000# per axle. 270,000 over 4 is 67,500#.

As I said, the GP's are too heavy. We're restricted to GMD-1's and SW1200's on that branch line. 

[BaltACD]

The concerns about 6 axle locomotives is more about the longer wheelbase of the 3 axle truck, vs the wheelbase of the 2 axle truck on a 4 axle locmotive.  Axle loading is a secondary concern.  Thus the development of the the Steerable truck by both EMD and GE as an option on their 6 axle offerings in recent years.

[oltmannd]

enr2099

 I'd like to see the big SD's go down our Steveston Branch, they'd snap the rail like a twig. The GP's are too heavy.

An SD50 has lower axle loads than a GP40-2. 390,000 over 6 axles is 65,000# per axle. 270,000 over 4 is 67,500#. The difference is often more about the curves on the line rather than the weight.

[schlimm]

 $8 million or even $80 mil.  (sounds high) is chump change to GE.  I agree that they will remedy the situation quickly and recover from the supplier.

[rdgk1se3019]

 I saw an NS GEVO come thru Reading PA a few days ago with a smoky exuast.

[enr2099]

wabash1

what in the world are you talking about? the sd50s are to big to switch with and not good for branch work. Your not in touch with reality are you. The NS has been using sd40s and was using 50s on branch lines for switching and still using the 40s but also we use sd 60s and dash 8-9s on branch lines and in switching as switch engines not enough gp 38s around  I dont mind using the SD units but the dash 9s are way to slow.

 

 I'd like to see the big SD's go down our Steveston Branch, they'd snap the rail like a twig. The GP's are too heavy.

[blue streak 1]

silicon212

The SD70M-2/ACe is proving to be a seriously reliable unit.  Bean counters will look at that.

If you are the purchasing agent for a RR don't you want to be in the position of saying "'at least not all our locomotives are this same model"?  If you are a small RR don't you have to worry more about not spreading your maintenance force over too many models? 

The point is almost any mechanical monster that is built will develop some kind of maintenance headache. It may happen soon or maybe later. Examples SDP40s derailing on some RRs, P-42s having traction motor lockups, SD-90s so bad production discontinued, etc.  If XYZ RR had bought SD90s in quantity our discussion might be of them? 

Now if your RR is so tight on equipment that a 20% failure of any type slows down your operation that may be different.  Maybe CN? 

[GP40-2]

As somebody who has worked a lot of years in this industry, and has first hand knowledge of the 50 series problems, I can say the GEVO problem is very minor compared to the major problems EMD had with the 50s design. EMD REFUSED to acknowledge any problems with the 50's until they had a gun to their head. Even then, they made constant excuses why it wasn't their problem. GE never denied the problem, and immediately sought a solution. They are not being complacent AT ALL. Bean counters are also going to look at the fact that GE's are more fuel efficient and have better technology than new EMDs. Even Honda and Toyota have recalls for defective components. As long as they make good to their customers, they maintain their sterling reputation, and maintain repeat sales. Like I said before, railroads like the performance and economics of the GEVO over the EMD. This problem will be fixed, and the railroads will continue to order from GE. You can bank on that.

[silicon212]

How are the GEVOs going to make the railroads so much more money than EMD units, when they're parked and not making any money due to a defective component?  Seriously, you can blame these shaft failures on the companies that produced them for GE, but ultimately they passed GE validation or they would not be in the turbos.  I scratch my head wondering why GE wasn't making these turbos themselves, considering they make the best aviation turbines.

The company bean counters are going to look at the GEVO units not being used due to a shaft failure, again a shaft that met GE validation, when they go to order more locomotives.  EMD lost their lead because they got complacent, much as GE is doing now.

If GE wants to maintain unit sales, they have to show the railroads that they mean business in preventing future snafu's such as this.  It's been said that the EMD 50 series is what relegated them to second performer status - this might well turn out to be GE's version of the 50 series.

The SD70M-2/ACe is proving to be a seriously reliable unit.  Bean counters will look at that.

[GP40-2]

edbenton

...Not to mention the fact that the GEVO's will be considered the LEPER of the locomotive world.  GE will have trouble giving them away for years...

That's a little on the far fetched side. It's one potentially defective part from one supplier. The problem turbos are going to get replaced ASAP, GE has enough money to easily cover the costs, then they will recover the costs from the supplier. Happens all the time in the business world. The only thing the railroads are going to do about the GEVOs...is order lots more GEVOs. They are powerful, fuel efficient, cutting edge technology, and most importantly make the railroads more profit hauling freight than EMDs do. In railroading, money talks and B.S. walks.

[wabash1]

what in the world are you talking about? the sd50s are to big to switch with and not good for branch work. Your not in touch with reality are you. The NS has been using sd40s and was using 50s on branch lines for switching and still using the 40s but also we use sd 60s and dash 8-9s on branch lines and in switching as switch engines not enough gp 38s around  I dont mind using the SD units but the dash 9s are way to slow.

[edbenton]

By the time they get thru replacing Everything try closer to 80,000,000 in DIRECT costs.  Not to mention the fact that the GEVO's will be considered the LEPER of the locomotive world.  GE will have trouble giving them away for years.  Consider this problem like the ones EMD had with the 50 series.  However GE is being better on taking care of it and more proactive on the fixes not being secretive about the issue.  All GE uses for the aircraft engines is a titatuim alloy shaft.  If the stupid idiots that are in Washington and in the Boardrooms would bring back Heavy Industry into this Nation most of these problems we are seeing would not be happening.

 

 

[creepycrank]

edbenton

NEVER as long as the freaking BEAN COUNTERS SIT AS CEO's.  They figure as long as they can save 2 cents a unit in production costs by having made then shipped in from OVERSEAS they are ahead.  Nevermind that stuff has life expectancy of a PINTO that got REARENDED by a SEMI TRUCK.  Lets look at something here DC-3 built here in the USA 100% guess what the suckers are still flying around the world in spots.  B-52 last 100% USA built Bomber schedulaed to be repaced in 2053 after being in SERVICE FOR 100 years.  Seeing a pattern here.  In the Railroad Industry.  GP50and SD-50 some of them are already in the scrapheaps while the GP-7 and the GP-9 keep right on going. 

First of all GP7's and GP9's are the irish hammers of locomotives; usually you replace the handle, sometimes the head. They are small locomotives that are easy to repair with simple tools and so forth. The SD 50's are too big for branch line work and switching and need computer experts to maintain. Back to GE. I think some heads will roll when the bean counters add up the bill. Of course I'm assuming that GE will foot the cost of the customer's labor and the cost of completely rebuilding the turbo with a new unattainium shaft possibly from GE jet engine division and if they are too busy maybe Pratt & Whitney or even Allison (Rolls Royce). Even if it only cost $10,000 to rebuild a turbo and their are maybe 800 turbos to be done that adds up to $8,000,000 alone. On top of this flood of turbos how are they going to get qualified labor and the parts to to the job in a reasonable time frame.GE has got to swallow the cost whatever it is to keep their customers,

[creepycrank]

edbenton

NEVER as long as the freaking BEAN COUNTERS SIT AS CEO's.  They figure as long as they can save 2 cents a unit in production costs by having made then shipped in from OVERSEAS they are ahead.  Nevermind that stuff has life expectancy of a PINTO that got REARENDED by a SEMI TRUCK.  Lets look at something here DC-3 built here in the USA 100% guess what the suckers are still flying around the world in spots.  B-52 last 100% USA built Bomber schedulaed to be repaced in 2053 after being in SERVICE FOR 100 years.  Seeing a pattern here.  In the Railroad Industry.  GP50and SD-50 some of them are already in the scrapheaps while the GP-7 and the GP-9 keep right on going. 

First of all GP7's and GP9's are the irish hammers of locomotives; usually you replace the handle, sometimes the head. They are small locomotives that are easy to repair with simple tools and so forth. The SD 50's are too big for branch line work and switching and need computer experts to maintain. Back to GE. I think some heads will roll when the bean counters add up the bill. Of course I'm assuming that GE will foot the cost of the customer's labor and the cost of completely rebuilding the turbo with a new unattainium shaft possibly from GE jet engine division and if they are too busy maybe Pratt & Whitney or even Allison (Rolls Royce). Even if it only cost $10,000 to rebuild a turbo and their are maybe 800 turbos to be done that adds up to $8,000,000 alone. On top of this flood of turbos how are they going to get qualified labor and the parts to to the job in a reasonable time frame.GE has got to swallow the cost whatever it is to keep their customers,

[edbenton]

NEVER as long as the freaking BEAN COUNTERS SIT AS CEO's.  They figure as long as they can save 2 cents a unit in production costs by having made then shipped in from OVERSEAS they are ahead.  Nevermind that stuff has life expectancy of a PINTO that got REARENDED by a SEMI TRUCK.  Lets look at something here DC-3 built here in the USA 100% guess what the suckers are still flying around the world in spots.  B-52 last 100% USA built Bomber schedulaed to be repaced in 2053 after being in SERVICE FOR 100 years.  Seeing a pattern here.  In the Railroad Industry.  GP50and SD-50 some of them are already in the scrapheaps while the GP-7 and the GP-9 keep right on going. 

[da_kraut]

edbenton

GE found out that one of their OVERSEA suppliers changed the matriels they used in the shafts on the Turbos on the GEVOS made from 2007 on and in any replacements.  Needless to say GE and the RR's that have bought them are madder than a dog that got its tail caught.  They are having to inspect and replace every single TURBO that has that suspect shaft in it regardless of when it was built or replaced.  Look for a US company to get the contract next time instead of a Chinese or Indian which had BOTH CONTRACTS.

 

When will we finally learn???????????????????

[BigJim]

We were told that a evo threw a turbo blade out through the casing and not to walk by the turbo section of the motor while it was running. There sure are a lot of new evo's sitting around doing nothing.

[carnej1]

bubbajustin

GE’s latest batch of turbo’s have been going to pot quickly. I imagine that if It was a GEVO, it was the turbo. Assuming that the smoke was not going away, It probably was the turbo. If not, It might have been a -8 or -9. They tend to smoke when throttling up. Or when throttling up on a heavy grade. I don’t think I’ve ever saw a GEVO smoke like that unless it is a turbo. I think the truck assemblies are made in Africa. Wouldn’t surprise me if they start going next.

 I would imagine that the only African nation capable of building truck assemblies is South Africa. Their steel/manufacturing industrial base is modern and built to First World/European standards and they do make some railroad equipment domestically so I don't think your assumption is fair...Keep in mind the US Military has been buying mine resistant armored vehicles from a South African company (owned by British Aerospace) and I've read nothing but good things about these..

[fredswain]

It was definitely a C45ACCTE and not a dash 8 or 9.

[creepycrank]

So it looks like out of spec material the shafts are made that's causing the problem. Probably melted down fence posts instead of unattaineum required for the stresses involved. Correct me if I'm wrong but this turbo has a impeller at one end of the shaft and a turbine wheel at the other with two bearings on the shaft but between the impeller and the turbine. At maximum power, as I see the shaft fails in torsion just like that rusty bolt I tried to get out without heat. When the shaft snaps those bearings aren't going to hold anything. This failure can happen with everything within dimensional tolerance so there's no inspection that will detect the start of a failure except taking it apart and send the shaft to the metals lab. GE got an order for 100 locomotives away from EMD because, it was claimed, that they were cheaper by $1000 per unit. The cost of an unattaineum shaft from GE's jet engine division might eat up a lot of the cost advantage. In the present market locomotives are probably very price sensitive. The good news is that a good shaft would never break like this and get out of the housing. I've seen a shaft bent almost 90 degrees and everything in the turbo went into the dumpster but nothing went through the housing.

[bubbajustin]

GE’s latest batch of turbo’s have been going to pot quickly. I imagine that if It was a GEVO, it was the turbo. Assuming that the smoke was not going away, It probably was the turbo. If not, It might have been a -8 or -9. They tend to smoke when throttling up. Or when throttling up on a heavy grade. I don’t think I’ve ever saw a GEVO smoke like that unless it is a turbo. I think the truck assemblies are made in Africa. Wouldn’t surprise me if they start going next.

[edbenton]

GE found out that one of their OVERSEA suppliers changed the matriels they used in the shafts on the Turbos on the GEVOS made from 2007 on and in any replacements.  Needless to say GE and the RR's that have bought them are madder than a dog that got its tail caught.  They are having to inspect and replace every single TURBO that has that suspect shaft in it regardless of when it was built or replaced.  Look for a US company to get the contract next time instead of a Chinese or Indian which had BOTH CONTRACTS.

[Paul Milenkovic]

carnej1

schlimm

 More evidence in the case for electrification, at least for heavily used lines?

Not if you're an accountant for the RR...

Maybe a case for buying EMD.