Heavily smoking GEVO

[fredswain]

Or is it EVO? Anyways part of my drive parallels the UP Ft. Worth sub north of Houston between Spring and Navasota, TX. There is a thin line of trees between the road and the track. I was driving north and there was a train also going north next to me. I was slowly passing it and catching the head end. Up ahead I could see a smoke plume rising up. It looked like a hard working steam engine could be up there but I knew this wasn't going to be the case since UP doesn't have any in this part of the country and neither does anyone else. When I got up to the front I could see what was going on. There were 2 engines, both GE's. The second unit was puffing a black cloud of smoke the likes of which would make the hardest working Big Boy proud. Thick heavy black smoke.

I got to the town of Magnolia ahead of the train and crossed the tracks. I could see this black cloud coming. It roared through town fogging up everything behind it. It took several minutes for it to dissipate. I'm sure any enivronmentalists who saw it were just besides themselves. Could this have been a blown turbocharger? I know BNSF has had some GEVOs with this problem but does UP also have issues or was this just a coincidence?

[creepycrank]

If its black smoke its probably a non functioning turbo. This probably answers my question that with all this computer control that a sensor in the intake manifold would sense loss of boost pressure and derate the engine. To control smoke the computer is supposed to limit fuel while the turbo catches up. Are you sure its a GEVO unit?

[fredswain]

It might not have been a GEVO. I'm not sure which GE engines get that designation as a couple of variations look alike. Then to add to the confusion UP names them differently than others. The smoking engine was a rear facing C45ACCTE. The lead engine was a C44ACCTE. I can tell them apart pretty easily. Those are very common through here and mostly what I see as far as GE is concerned. UP's C45ACCTE engines look just like BNSF's ES44 engines which I also see alot of.

[creepycrank]

fredswain

It might not have been a GEVO. I'm not sure which GE engines get that designation as a couple of variations look alike. Then to add to the confusion UP names them differently than others. The smoking engine was a rear facing C45ACCTE. The lead engine was a C44ACCTE. I can tell them apart pretty easily. Those are very common through here and mostly what I see as far as GE is concerned. UP's C45ACCTE engines look just like BNSF's ES44 engines which I also see alot of.

A C45ACCTE is the latest model so it would have a GEVO engine with the troublesome turbo. They have a different pattern of grills and the air intake for the aftercooler is just in front of the intake grills for the radiator. Its probably still under warranty.

[schlimm]

 More evidence in the case for electrification, at least for heavily used lines?

[carnej1]

schlimm

 More evidence in the case for electrification, at least for heavily used lines?

Not if you're an accountant for the RR...

[Paul Milenkovic]

carnej1

schlimm

 More evidence in the case for electrification, at least for heavily used lines?

Not if you're an accountant for the RR...

Maybe a case for buying EMD.

[edbenton]

GE found out that one of their OVERSEA suppliers changed the matriels they used in the shafts on the Turbos on the GEVOS made from 2007 on and in any replacements.  Needless to say GE and the RR's that have bought them are madder than a dog that got its tail caught.  They are having to inspect and replace every single TURBO that has that suspect shaft in it regardless of when it was built or replaced.  Look for a US company to get the contract next time instead of a Chinese or Indian which had BOTH CONTRACTS.

[bubbajustin]

GE’s latest batch of turbo’s have been going to pot quickly. I imagine that if It was a GEVO, it was the turbo. Assuming that the smoke was not going away, It probably was the turbo. If not, It might have been a -8 or -9. They tend to smoke when throttling up. Or when throttling up on a heavy grade. I don’t think I’ve ever saw a GEVO smoke like that unless it is a turbo. I think the truck assemblies are made in Africa. Wouldn’t surprise me if they start going next.

[creepycrank]

So it looks like out of spec material the shafts are made that's causing the problem. Probably melted down fence posts instead of unattaineum required for the stresses involved. Correct me if I'm wrong but this turbo has a impeller at one end of the shaft and a turbine wheel at the other with two bearings on the shaft but between the impeller and the turbine. At maximum power, as I see the shaft fails in torsion just like that rusty bolt I tried to get out without heat. When the shaft snaps those bearings aren't going to hold anything. This failure can happen with everything within dimensional tolerance so there's no inspection that will detect the start of a failure except taking it apart and send the shaft to the metals lab. GE got an order for 100 locomotives away from EMD because, it was claimed, that they were cheaper by $1000 per unit. The cost of an unattaineum shaft from GE's jet engine division might eat up a lot of the cost advantage. In the present market locomotives are probably very price sensitive. The good news is that a good shaft would never break like this and get out of the housing. I've seen a shaft bent almost 90 degrees and everything in the turbo went into the dumpster but nothing went through the housing.

[fredswain]

It was definitely a C45ACCTE and not a dash 8 or 9.

[carnej1]

bubbajustin

GE’s latest batch of turbo’s have been going to pot quickly. I imagine that if It was a GEVO, it was the turbo. Assuming that the smoke was not going away, It probably was the turbo. If not, It might have been a -8 or -9. They tend to smoke when throttling up. Or when throttling up on a heavy grade. I don’t think I’ve ever saw a GEVO smoke like that unless it is a turbo. I think the truck assemblies are made in Africa. Wouldn’t surprise me if they start going next.

 I would imagine that the only African nation capable of building truck assemblies is South Africa. Their steel/manufacturing industrial base is modern and built to First World/European standards and they do make some railroad equipment domestically so I don't think your assumption is fair...Keep in mind the US Military has been buying mine resistant armored vehicles from a South African company (owned by British Aerospace) and I've read nothing but good things about these..

[BigJim]

We were told that a evo threw a turbo blade out through the casing and not to walk by the turbo section of the motor while it was running. There sure are a lot of new evo's sitting around doing nothing.

[da_kraut]

edbenton

GE found out that one of their OVERSEA suppliers changed the matriels they used in the shafts on the Turbos on the GEVOS made from 2007 on and in any replacements.  Needless to say GE and the RR's that have bought them are madder than a dog that got its tail caught.  They are having to inspect and replace every single TURBO that has that suspect shaft in it regardless of when it was built or replaced.  Look for a US company to get the contract next time instead of a Chinese or Indian which had BOTH CONTRACTS.

 

When will we finally learn???????????????????

[edbenton]

NEVER as long as the freaking BEAN COUNTERS SIT AS CEO's.  They figure as long as they can save 2 cents a unit in production costs by having made then shipped in from OVERSEAS they are ahead.  Nevermind that stuff has life expectancy of a PINTO that got REARENDED by a SEMI TRUCK.  Lets look at something here DC-3 built here in the USA 100% guess what the suckers are still flying around the world in spots.  B-52 last 100% USA built Bomber schedulaed to be repaced in 2053 after being in SERVICE FOR 100 years.  Seeing a pattern here.  In the Railroad Industry.  GP50and SD-50 some of them are already in the scrapheaps while the GP-7 and the GP-9 keep right on going. 

[creepycrank]

edbenton

NEVER as long as the freaking BEAN COUNTERS SIT AS CEO's.  They figure as long as they can save 2 cents a unit in production costs by having made then shipped in from OVERSEAS they are ahead.  Nevermind that stuff has life expectancy of a PINTO that got REARENDED by a SEMI TRUCK.  Lets look at something here DC-3 built here in the USA 100% guess what the suckers are still flying around the world in spots.  B-52 last 100% USA built Bomber schedulaed to be repaced in 2053 after being in SERVICE FOR 100 years.  Seeing a pattern here.  In the Railroad Industry.  GP50and SD-50 some of them are already in the scrapheaps while the GP-7 and the GP-9 keep right on going. 

First of all GP7's and GP9's are the irish hammers of locomotives; usually you replace the handle, sometimes the head. They are small locomotives that are easy to repair with simple tools and so forth. The SD 50's are too big for branch line work and switching and need computer experts to maintain. Back to GE. I think some heads will roll when the bean counters add up the bill. Of course I'm assuming that GE will foot the cost of the customer's labor and the cost of completely rebuilding the turbo with a new unattainium shaft possibly from GE jet engine division and if they are too busy maybe Pratt & Whitney or even Allison (Rolls Royce). Even if it only cost $10,000 to rebuild a turbo and their are maybe 800 turbos to be done that adds up to $8,000,000 alone. On top of this flood of turbos how are they going to get qualified labor and the parts to to the job in a reasonable time frame.GE has got to swallow the cost whatever it is to keep their customers,

[creepycrank]

edbenton

NEVER as long as the freaking BEAN COUNTERS SIT AS CEO's.  They figure as long as they can save 2 cents a unit in production costs by having made then shipped in from OVERSEAS they are ahead.  Nevermind that stuff has life expectancy of a PINTO that got REARENDED by a SEMI TRUCK.  Lets look at something here DC-3 built here in the USA 100% guess what the suckers are still flying around the world in spots.  B-52 last 100% USA built Bomber schedulaed to be repaced in 2053 after being in SERVICE FOR 100 years.  Seeing a pattern here.  In the Railroad Industry.  GP50and SD-50 some of them are already in the scrapheaps while the GP-7 and the GP-9 keep right on going. 

First of all GP7's and GP9's are the irish hammers of locomotives; usually you replace the handle, sometimes the head. They are small locomotives that are easy to repair with simple tools and so forth. The SD 50's are too big for branch line work and switching and need computer experts to maintain. Back to GE. I think some heads will roll when the bean counters add up the bill. Of course I'm assuming that GE will foot the cost of the customer's labor and the cost of completely rebuilding the turbo with a new unattainium shaft possibly from GE jet engine division and if they are too busy maybe Pratt & Whitney or even Allison (Rolls Royce). Even if it only cost $10,000 to rebuild a turbo and their are maybe 800 turbos to be done that adds up to $8,000,000 alone. On top of this flood of turbos how are they going to get qualified labor and the parts to to the job in a reasonable time frame.GE has got to swallow the cost whatever it is to keep their customers,

[edbenton]

By the time they get thru replacing Everything try closer to 80,000,000 in DIRECT costs.  Not to mention the fact that the GEVO's will be considered the LEPER of the locomotive world.  GE will have trouble giving them away for years.  Consider this problem like the ones EMD had with the 50 series.  However GE is being better on taking care of it and more proactive on the fixes not being secretive about the issue.  All GE uses for the aircraft engines is a titatuim alloy shaft.  If the stupid idiots that are in Washington and in the Boardrooms would bring back Heavy Industry into this Nation most of these problems we are seeing would not be happening.

 

 

[wabash1]

what in the world are you talking about? the sd50s are to big to switch with and not good for branch work. Your not in touch with reality are you. The NS has been using sd40s and was using 50s on branch lines for switching and still using the 40s but also we use sd 60s and dash 8-9s on branch lines and in switching as switch engines not enough gp 38s around  I dont mind using the SD units but the dash 9s are way to slow.

[GP40-2]

edbenton

...Not to mention the fact that the GEVO's will be considered the LEPER of the locomotive world.  GE will have trouble giving them away for years...

That's a little on the far fetched side. It's one potentially defective part from one supplier. The problem turbos are going to get replaced ASAP, GE has enough money to easily cover the costs, then they will recover the costs from the supplier. Happens all the time in the business world. The only thing the railroads are going to do about the GEVOs...is order lots more GEVOs. They are powerful, fuel efficient, cutting edge technology, and most importantly make the railroads more profit hauling freight than EMDs do. In railroading, money talks and B.S. walks.

[silicon212]

How are the GEVOs going to make the railroads so much more money than EMD units, when they're parked and not making any money due to a defective component?  Seriously, you can blame these shaft failures on the companies that produced them for GE, but ultimately they passed GE validation or they would not be in the turbos.  I scratch my head wondering why GE wasn't making these turbos themselves, considering they make the best aviation turbines.

The company bean counters are going to look at the GEVO units not being used due to a shaft failure, again a shaft that met GE validation, when they go to order more locomotives.  EMD lost their lead because they got complacent, much as GE is doing now.

If GE wants to maintain unit sales, they have to show the railroads that they mean business in preventing future snafu's such as this.  It's been said that the EMD 50 series is what relegated them to second performer status - this might well turn out to be GE's version of the 50 series.

The SD70M-2/ACe is proving to be a seriously reliable unit.  Bean counters will look at that.

[GP40-2]

As somebody who has worked a lot of years in this industry, and has first hand knowledge of the 50 series problems, I can say the GEVO problem is very minor compared to the major problems EMD had with the 50s design. EMD REFUSED to acknowledge any problems with the 50's until they had a gun to their head. Even then, they made constant excuses why it wasn't their problem. GE never denied the problem, and immediately sought a solution. They are not being complacent AT ALL. Bean counters are also going to look at the fact that GE's are more fuel efficient and have better technology than new EMDs. Even Honda and Toyota have recalls for defective components. As long as they make good to their customers, they maintain their sterling reputation, and maintain repeat sales. Like I said before, railroads like the performance and economics of the GEVO over the EMD. This problem will be fixed, and the railroads will continue to order from GE. You can bank on that.

[blue streak 1]

silicon212

The SD70M-2/ACe is proving to be a seriously reliable unit.  Bean counters will look at that.

If you are the purchasing agent for a RR don't you want to be in the position of saying "'at least not all our locomotives are this same model"?  If you are a small RR don't you have to worry more about not spreading your maintenance force over too many models? 

The point is almost any mechanical monster that is built will develop some kind of maintenance headache. It may happen soon or maybe later. Examples SDP40s derailing on some RRs, P-42s having traction motor lockups, SD-90s so bad production discontinued, etc.  If XYZ RR had bought SD90s in quantity our discussion might be of them? 

Now if your RR is so tight on equipment that a 20% failure of any type slows down your operation that may be different.  Maybe CN? 

[enr2099]

wabash1

what in the world are you talking about? the sd50s are to big to switch with and not good for branch work. Your not in touch with reality are you. The NS has been using sd40s and was using 50s on branch lines for switching and still using the 40s but also we use sd 60s and dash 8-9s on branch lines and in switching as switch engines not enough gp 38s around  I dont mind using the SD units but the dash 9s are way to slow.

 

 I'd like to see the big SD's go down our Steveston Branch, they'd snap the rail like a twig. The GP's are too heavy.

[rdgk1se3019]

 I saw an NS GEVO come thru Reading PA a few days ago with a smoky exuast.

[schlimm]

 $8 million or even $80 mil.  (sounds high) is chump change to GE.  I agree that they will remedy the situation quickly and recover from the supplier.

[oltmannd]

enr2099

 I'd like to see the big SD's go down our Steveston Branch, they'd snap the rail like a twig. The GP's are too heavy.

An SD50 has lower axle loads than a GP40-2. 390,000 over 6 axles is 65,000# per axle. 270,000 over 4 is 67,500#. The difference is often more about the curves on the line rather than the weight.

[BaltACD]

The concerns about 6 axle locomotives is more about the longer wheelbase of the 3 axle truck, vs the wheelbase of the 2 axle truck on a 4 axle locmotive.  Axle loading is a secondary concern.  Thus the development of the the Steerable truck by both EMD and GE as an option on their 6 axle offerings in recent years.

[enr2099]

 

oltmannd

enr2099

 I'd like to see the big SD's go down our Steveston Branch, they'd snap the rail like a twig. The GP's are too heavy.

An SD50 has lower axle loads than a GP40-2. 390,000 over 6 axles is 65,000# per axle. 270,000 over 4 is 67,500#.

As I said, the GP's are too heavy. We're restricted to GMD-1's and SW1200's on that branch line. 

[Randy Stahl]

edbenton

By the time they get thru replacing Everything try closer to 80,000,000 in DIRECT costs.  Not to mention the fact that the GEVO's will be considered the LEPER of the locomotive world.  GE will have trouble giving them away for years.  Consider this problem like the ones EMD had with the 50 series.  However GE is being better on taking care of it and more proactive on the fixes not being secretive about the issue.  All GE uses for the aircraft engines is a titatuim alloy shaft.  If the stupid idiots that are in Washington and in the Boardrooms would bring back Heavy Industry into this Nation most of these problems we are seeing would not be happening.

 

 

Start by putting the EPA on a shorter leash