Hi everybody,
As this is my first post on an account created recently, many of you will probably be suspicous of my post. I have been following this forum for a few years now without an account, and have created one now to talk about the NRHS' RailCamp, and it's absolutely asenine acceptance process.
Let me set the stage here. I am a freshman in high school. Last year, I was rejected by a program at Michigan Tech University. I originally intended to reapply, however the program took a hybrid only stance this year. So, after doing some searching, I stumbled upon a few different camps. Between a camp in Wisconsin, a program operated by the TVRM, and RailCamp Northeast, I found myself most excited for RailCamp. I was especially excited by the prospect of seeing how maintainance works in modern day railroading, working with machinery, and seeing the history of railroad at Strasburg. So I got to work on my application, taking my time and finally mailing it out on April 1st, the mailing deadline (this will be important later).
I received my results 6 days later via email, and was dissapointed to put it lightly. I was informed that I had been rejected from the camp for a few reasons. The first was that since I had been rejected largely in part due to the fact I was a freshman in high school. Being rejected for this reason did not make much sense, considering that freshman are listed as completely eligible on the NRHS webage with the details about RailCamp. The other reason was because they had "been reviewing candidated for 3 months'. Now, this is my big issue. Whoever set this up clearly does not understand how deadlines work. A deadline is the latest date you can submit or complete something for consideration. I completed my application and had it postmarked by the deadline, however I was not considered. It makes no sense. To be clear, my issue is not that the amount of time available is restricting. But it needs to be made clear the amount of time you have. If you can submit something by a deadline and not have it reviewed, then by definition that is not a deadline. I don't see how I can be held at fault for sticking with their deadline.
But, the iceberg goes deeper. Contacting the teachers I had used as references, I learned that none of them were contacted as references for my application. Now how it looks to me, my application was looked at only to get a name and email to use to send a boilerplate rejection response. After me and my family reached out to the woman who informed me of my completely nonsensical rejection, we received this incredible rude statement:
"The selection process for RailCamp is extensive. Contacting teachers and other interviews are very time consuming. As I said in my message we have been doing interviews for three months. Unfortunately, you waited until the last possible moment to send in ---'s application, received April 4th. Some of the pages in their application are dated March 6th. "
Putting the rude and snarky response aside, this is a complete admission that my application was not looked at at all despite it being postmarked for the deadline. This also points out yet another flaw in their already majorly troubled process. NRHS' RailCamp attendance is supposed to be determined by merit, not chronological order. But, it seems as though that's exactly what happened here.
This also is seeming to hold me accountable for the NRHS' decision to make applications deliverable by physical mail only. I don't see how it's my fault that they chose to make these mailable only.
Additionally, in my research, I discovered that you are given special attention if you get in on their inside club by being sponsored by one of their chapters. My state of Michigan does not have any, so what do I do then? Just another flaw to throw on the pile here.
In my research about this camp, I have found many people on this forum and other hailing it as bringing my generation into railroading. I want to make something clear here. This is doing the exact opposite. Their response clearly shows a laziness in bringing my generation to railroading. They took no effort to review my response despite it being in on time. Many of you senior folks in preservation and railroading wonder why young people are not involved, this is why. Not a lack of interest, but a lack of opportunity. I am 14, and have loved trains and railroading for every second of those 14 years. I have constantly seeked out opportunites to get my hands dirty in preservation, to get involved, and have turned up nothing. Places such as the NRHS RailCamp is part of this problem. Their laziness in reviewing my application shows an apathy in doing the very thing it claims to do, bring young people into railroading and show them what a career in the industry is like. So next time any of you go to praise this program for motivating my generation to get into railroading, please know it's doing the opposite.
As a quick summary here, I was rejected from Railcamp seemingly without my application being looked at despite my submitting within the deadline, and was held at fault for not having my application looked at. Yet still, somehow this camp is praised for bringing railroading to the younger generations. I'll get off my soapbox now.
As with college applications, which you'll be learning about all too soon (and hopefully not the way I did!) you need to file material EARLY, especially if you're asking for consideration along with those an organization may think are 'better suited to the opportunity' -- i.e. older, bigger, more experienced in what is actually expected rather than what is touted or advertised.
The time to be making your bona fides to the NRHS people was as early as they started considering applications. Now you know that that happens "three months earlier" and, even if you may not be on the same playing field as some with more advantages, you can get noticed and, if necessary, demonstrate your ability, fitness to be attending, and potential contributions to the 'experience'.
I strongly recommend you set up an account over on RyPN, and ask (politely and humbly) what the strengths to build are, and who the people to meet as friends, supporters, or possible mentors might be. It's possible that the right kind of volunteering might help -- but all too many current 'museums' are more old fud's clubs where you do scutwork for little reward or attention.
Reapply, early, next year, and be prepared to self-promote on skills and abilities you would bring to camp.
Overmod As with college applications, which you'll be learning about all too soon (and hopefully not the way I did!) you need to file material EARLY, especially if you're asking for consideration along with those an organization may think are 'better suited to the opportunity' -- i.e. older, bigger, more experienced in what is actually expected rather than what is touted or advertised. The time to be making your bona fides to the NRHS people was as early as they started considering applications. Now you know that that happens "three months earlier" and, even if you may not be on the same playing field as some with more advantages, you can get noticed and, if necessary, demonstrate your ability, fitness to be attending, and potential contributions to the 'experience'. I strongly recommend you set up an account over on RyPN, and ask (politely and humbly) what the strengths to build are, and who the people to meet as friends, supporters, or possible mentors might be. It's possible that the right kind of volunteering might help -- but all too many current 'museums' are more old fud's clubs where you do scutwork for little reward or attention. Reapply, early, next year, and be prepared to self-promote on skills and abilities you would bring to camp.
You see, I would have made sure to have applied earlier if it was made clear that odds of acceptance would be much greater if you got in your application earlier. My issue here is that things were not made clear enough by the NRHS and somehow I am to blame for that. I was taking my time to make sure my application was thorough and well done.
Sounds like you were considered, but were not chosen. Sucks; but that's life. I'm wondering if since they didn't have railcamps last couple years, they gave preference to juniors/seniors since they didn't have a shot to go before. While you, being a freshman, still have a couple more years to try again.
And waiting until the last day to apply probably didn't help you. When I went to college in the dark ages, they told us when you apply earlier, they are more generous who they let in. As crunchtime nears, and applications come flooding in, they start being more picky.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmann Sounds like you were considered, but were not chosen. Sucks; but that's life. I'm wondering if since they didn't have railcamps last couple years, they gave preference to juniors/seniors since they didn't have a shot to go before. While you, being a freshman, still have a couple more years to try again. And waiting until the last day to apply probably didn't help you. When I went to college in the dark ages, they told us when you apply earlier, they are more generous who they let in. As crunchtime nears, and applications come flooding in, they start being more picky.
As I said, I most certainly wasn't considered. It was made clear in the rejection email I was sent that my application was not looked at. And once again, if there was an indication given that candidates who applied earlier would have a better chance, I would have been fine with this. A deadline isn't a deadline if you can apply within the deadline and not be considered.
And to address what you said about volunteering, as I stated in my second-to-last paragraph, this is part of an overarching problem of a lack of opportunity. I've been seeking out volunteer opportunities since I was 10. Pretty much everything requires you to be 18. This isn't me not wanting to volunteer or get involved, it's me being unable to.
Sounds like a lot of sour grapes here. Waiting until the last minute to submit an application is never a smart move in any endeavor. It's quite possible that a sufficient amount of qualified applicants were already under consideration before your app was even received.
CSSHEGEWISCH Sounds like a lot of sour grapes here. Waiting until the last minute to submit an application is never a smart move in any endeavor. It's quite possible that a sufficient amount of qualified applicants were already under consideration before your app was even received.
My issue isn't that I was rejected. If I was told that I had my application looked at and the organization decided with other candidates, I would be just fine with that. My issue is that I didn't have my application looked at despite it being within the deadline. If that last minute is too late for the NRHS, they should move up the deadline, not make me guess if their deadline is actually a deadline.
Listen to the wise old geezers here son, they've been "around the block" quite a few times more than you have, have taken quite a few hits themselves, and know how the world works. REALLY works.
You're getting some good advice, just make sure you follow it and you'll have better luck next time.
I feel as though I need to clarify something. I'm not here because I got rejected by the NRHS. If that's why I was here, I'd be complaining about the program at Michigan Tech. What I AM here about is the fact that this was determined by chronological order, not merit (which is contrary to the way the program was described), and that my application was not looked at despite it being in by the deadline. If the deadline the NRHS set is too late for them to consider applications, then it's on them to move up the application mailing deadline. It shouldn't be my job to guess when the actual deadline is because the NRHS can't work with the deadline they set and were fully capable of changing.
GrandTrunkWesternAs I said, I most certainly wasn't considered. It was made clear in the rejection email I was sent that my application was not looked at. And once again, if there was an indication given that candidates who applied earlier would have a better chance, I would have been fine with this. A deadline isn't a deadline if you can apply within the deadline and not be considered.
You're young. Not everything is spelled out completely all the time. That's life.
Ditch the entitlement attitude and move on, try again, or go complain to the NRHS directly.
Apart from Railcamp you might approach various preservation groups in your area directly. Reach out to people, offer to help out in any capacity, and put together your own deal without Railcamp.
zugmann GrandTrunkWestern As I said, I most certainly wasn't considered. It was made clear in the rejection email I was sent that my application was not looked at. And once again, if there was an indication given that candidates who applied earlier would have a better chance, I would have been fine with this. A deadline isn't a deadline if you can apply within the deadline and not be considered. You're young. Not everything is spelled out completely all the time. That's life. Ditch the entitlement attitude and move on, try again, or go complain to the NRHS directly.
GrandTrunkWestern As I said, I most certainly wasn't considered. It was made clear in the rejection email I was sent that my application was not looked at. And once again, if there was an indication given that candidates who applied earlier would have a better chance, I would have been fine with this. A deadline isn't a deadline if you can apply within the deadline and not be considered.
Well since I got my application in by the deadline, filled it out completely, mailed it in, and was told by the NRHS that applications were being looked at, I do feel as though I was entitled to have my application looked at. And I have tried going to the NRHS directly, their email inbox seems as though it has some cobwebs on it.
GrandTrunkWestern zugmann GrandTrunkWestern As I said, I most certainly wasn't considered. It was made clear in the rejection email I was sent that my application was not looked at. And once again, if there was an indication given that candidates who applied earlier would have a better chance, I would have been fine with this. A deadline isn't a deadline if you can apply within the deadline and not be considered. You're young. Not everything is spelled out completely all the time. That's life. Ditch the entitlement attitude and move on, try again, or go complain to the NRHS directly. Well since I got my application in by the deadline, filled it out completely, mailed it in, and was told by the NRHS that applications were being looked at, I do feel as though I was entitled to have my application looked at. And I have tried going to the NRHS directly, their email inbox seems as though it has some cobwebs on it.
Their 'looked at' and your 'looked at' are two different looked ats. Their's wins. Remember the Golden Rule - those with the gold make the rules.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
This will sound snarky but I mean it seriously. Maybe the OP's application wasn't as impressive as he seems to think? I'm sure everyone who applied was a teenage railfan and his app was just "run of the mill". Also, how many open spots were there and how many applications did they receive. Like Zug mentioned, maybe they wer going with older applicants who missed it the last couple of years. That makes perfect sense.
I mean if my application was just run of the mill and not something that stood out to them, I would understand. I'm just kinda ticked off that they never actually saw my application.
BaltACD GrandTrunkWestern zugmann GrandTrunkWestern As I said, I most certainly wasn't considered. It was made clear in the rejection email I was sent that my application was not looked at. And once again, if there was an indication given that candidates who applied earlier would have a better chance, I would have been fine with this. A deadline isn't a deadline if you can apply within the deadline and not be considered. You're young. Not everything is spelled out completely all the time. That's life. Ditch the entitlement attitude and move on, try again, or go complain to the NRHS directly. Well since I got my application in by the deadline, filled it out completely, mailed it in, and was told by the NRHS that applications were being looked at, I do feel as though I was entitled to have my application looked at. And I have tried going to the NRHS directly, their email inbox seems as though it has some cobwebs on it. Their 'looked at' and your 'looked at' are two different looked ats. Their's wins. Remember the Golden Rule - those with the gold make the rules.
Yeah, it would seem as though their "looked at" isn't really what it should be. I guess that's kinda why I made this, I figured after the NRHS blew me off I would try to come here to shine some light on it and warn those who would want to apply in the future. Guess I should have figured it was futile, but I guess it was worth a shot.
Here's a hard question for you to answer. It appears that you think that the only result of being "looked at" is to get them to invite you. What do you think makes your application superior? What did you actually write on why they should accept you? Remember, everyone else applying is also a teenage railfan. What makes your application distinct?
GrandTrunkWestern BaltACD GrandTrunkWestern zugmann GrandTrunkWestern As I said, I most certainly wasn't considered. It was made clear in the rejection email I was sent that my application was not looked at. And once again, if there was an indication given that candidates who applied earlier would have a better chance, I would have been fine with this. A deadline isn't a deadline if you can apply within the deadline and not be considered. You're young. Not everything is spelled out completely all the time. That's life. Ditch the entitlement attitude and move on, try again, or go complain to the NRHS directly. Well since I got my application in by the deadline, filled it out completely, mailed it in, and was told by the NRHS that applications were being looked at, I do feel as though I was entitled to have my application looked at. And I have tried going to the NRHS directly, their email inbox seems as though it has some cobwebs on it. Their 'looked at' and your 'looked at' are two different looked ats. Their's wins. Remember the Golden Rule - those with the gold make the rules. Yeah, it would seem as though their "looked at" isn't really what it should be. I guess that's kinda why I made this, I figured after the NRHS blew me off I would try to come here to shine some light on it and warn those who would want to apply in the future. Guess I should have figured it was futile, but I guess it was worth a shot.
It would appear that when they looked at your resume, their decision was that the resume wasn't what they felt it should be for them to accept you. That is the real world - just applying doesn't mean you are acceptable to those that are making the decisions.
In real life, you will get knocked down for a variety of reasons in a variety of situations. You will find a lot of company where you get knocked down to. What will set your life apart from others is how you pick yourself up, dust yourself off and march forward for the rest of your life. Life will knock you down, picking yourself up one more time than you are knocked down is what life is all about.
BaltACD GrandTrunkWestern BaltACD GrandTrunkWestern zugmann GrandTrunkWestern As I said, I most certainly wasn't considered. It was made clear in the rejection email I was sent that my application was not looked at. And once again, if there was an indication given that candidates who applied earlier would have a better chance, I would have been fine with this. A deadline isn't a deadline if you can apply within the deadline and not be considered. You're young. Not everything is spelled out completely all the time. That's life. Ditch the entitlement attitude and move on, try again, or go complain to the NRHS directly. Well since I got my application in by the deadline, filled it out completely, mailed it in, and was told by the NRHS that applications were being looked at, I do feel as though I was entitled to have my application looked at. And I have tried going to the NRHS directly, their email inbox seems as though it has some cobwebs on it. Their 'looked at' and your 'looked at' are two different looked ats. Their's wins. Remember the Golden Rule - those with the gold make the rules. Yeah, it would seem as though their "looked at" isn't really what it should be. I guess that's kinda why I made this, I figured after the NRHS blew me off I would try to come here to shine some light on it and warn those who would want to apply in the future. Guess I should have figured it was futile, but I guess it was worth a shot. It would appear that when they looked at your resume, their decision was that the resume wasn't what they felt it should be for them to accept you. That is the real world - just applying doesn't mean you are acceptable to those that are making the decisions. In real life, you will get knocked down for a variety of reasons in a variety of situations. You will find a lot of company where you get knocked down to. What will set your life apart from others is how you pick yourself up, dust yourself off and march forward for the rest of your life. Life will knock you down, picking yourself up one more time than you are knocked down is what life is all about.
Yeah, what he said. And keep in mind that sometimes you'll be passed over for no good reason.. life is often kind of unfair that way. Sometimes looking for alterrnatives helps.. does RailCamp have a lock on participating in rail volunteerism in your area?
Ulrich's suggestion makes sense. Pick the tourist or operating museum railroad where you wish to be an apprentice. Learn as much as you can about it. Find out if there is an active member that lives close enough to you for you to visit him or her
Frankly, it seems pretty clear that they treated the application as 'arriving' on the fourth, after their deadline. Whether or not they took a weasel way out by declaring it was 'past the deadline' ... the take-home message is that you should have gotten it in well BEFORE their deadline.
I still haven't figured out why, if this was so essential an experience, you waited until the last minute. I'm actually appalled that your takeaway from posting here is that no one sympathized enough with the way you've convinced yourself you were treated.
I certainly hope no one connected with NRHS reads this -- in my admittedly boomer-values opinion, it is full of real serious red flags.
Please keep us informed if you do follow Ulrich'd (and my) suggestion. Note thast my railfanning made an order-of-magnitude improvement in February 1947, age 15, by my chance meeting with ERA and Branford members at the Gardner Avenue, Mt. Vernon, complex of Third Avenue Transit. Older Railfans like John Stern, Herman Rink, Harold Geissenheimer. took me in tow, built good reltionships with my parents, and led to the opportunities for many of my photos on the Classic Trains Forum. Active members of a tourist ort museum railroad casn do the ssme for you.
Overmod Frankly, it seems pretty clear that they treated the application as 'arriving' on the fourth, after their deadline. Whether or not they took a weasel way out by declaring it was 'past the deadline' ... the take-home message is that you should have gotten it in well BEFORE their deadline. I still haven't figured out why, if this was so essential an experience, you waited until the last minute. I'm actually appalled that your takeaway from posting here is that no one sympathized enough with the way you've convinced yourself you were treated. I certainly hope no one connected with NRHS reads this -- in my admittedly boomer-values opinion, it is full of real serious red flags.
They could have had it the same day I finished it if they allowed for submissions online. It takes 5 minutes to create a google form you can upload a .PDF into.
GrandTrunkWestern Overmod Frankly, it seems pretty clear that they treated the application as 'arriving' on the fourth, after their deadline. Whether or not they took a weasel way out by declaring it was 'past the deadline' ... the take-home message is that you should have gotten it in well BEFORE their deadline. I still haven't figured out why, if this was so essential an experience, you waited until the last minute. I'm actually appalled that your takeaway from posting here is that no one sympathized enough with the way you've convinced yourself you were treated. I certainly hope no one connected with NRHS reads this -- in my admittedly boomer-values opinion, it is full of real serious red flags. They could have had it the same day I finished it if they allowed for submissions online. It takes 5 minutes to create a google form you can upload a .PDF into.
You still haven't answered questions people have asked you here, such as...
Why did you wait until the last day?
What makes your application better than others?
Backshop GrandTrunkWestern Overmod Frankly, it seems pretty clear that they treated the application as 'arriving' on the fourth, after their deadline. Whether or not they took a weasel way out by declaring it was 'past the deadline' ... the take-home message is that you should have gotten it in well BEFORE their deadline. I still haven't figured out why, if this was so essential an experience, you waited until the last minute. I'm actually appalled that your takeaway from posting here is that no one sympathized enough with the way you've convinced yourself you were treated. I certainly hope no one connected with NRHS reads this -- in my admittedly boomer-values opinion, it is full of real serious red flags. They could have had it the same day I finished it if they allowed for submissions online. It takes 5 minutes to create a google form you can upload a .PDF into. But that's not the way they do it, and you knew that ahead of time. Remember, most if not all of the people running this are volunteers and they do things the way that is easiest or most comfortable to them. You still haven't answered questions people have asked you here, such as... Why did you wait until the last day? What makes your application better than others?
But that's not the way they do it, and you knew that ahead of time. Remember, most if not all of the people running this are volunteers and they do things the way that is easiest or most comfortable to them.
To answer those questions:1. I was trying to be thorough. And even if it was the last day, it was the day they said they would take it, that was the deadline.
2. I never said it was better. I'm saying that it never really, actually got looked at. I'm here talking about how I got it in by the deadline yet it wasn't looked at. I'm not saying that my application was better and that I should've gotten it, I'm saying that I should've had it looked at because I had it in by the deadline.
daveklepper Please keep us informed if you do follow Ulrich'd (and my) suggestion. Note thast my railfanning made an order-of-magnitude improvement in February 1947, age 15, by my chance meeting with ERA and Branford members at the Gardner Avenue, Mt. Vernon, complex of Third Avenue Transit. Older Railfans like John Stern, Herman Rink, Harold Geissenheimer. took me in tow, built good reltionships with my parents, and led to the opportunities for many of my photos on the Classic Trains Forum. Active members of a tourist ort museum railroad casn do the ssme for you.
Will do. I've been looking for a while but I'll have another go at it to see if anything new has sprung up.
Ulrich BaltACD GrandTrunkWestern BaltACD GrandTrunkWestern zugmann GrandTrunkWestern As I said, I most certainly wasn't considered. It was made clear in the rejection email I was sent that my application was not looked at. And once again, if there was an indication given that candidates who applied earlier would have a better chance, I would have been fine with this. A deadline isn't a deadline if you can apply within the deadline and not be considered. You're young. Not everything is spelled out completely all the time. That's life. Ditch the entitlement attitude and move on, try again, or go complain to the NRHS directly. Well since I got my application in by the deadline, filled it out completely, mailed it in, and was told by the NRHS that applications were being looked at, I do feel as though I was entitled to have my application looked at. And I have tried going to the NRHS directly, their email inbox seems as though it has some cobwebs on it. Their 'looked at' and your 'looked at' are two different looked ats. Their's wins. Remember the Golden Rule - those with the gold make the rules. Yeah, it would seem as though their "looked at" isn't really what it should be. I guess that's kinda why I made this, I figured after the NRHS blew me off I would try to come here to shine some light on it and warn those who would want to apply in the future. Guess I should have figured it was futile, but I guess it was worth a shot. It would appear that when they looked at your resume, their decision was that the resume wasn't what they felt it should be for them to accept you. That is the real world - just applying doesn't mean you are acceptable to those that are making the decisions. In real life, you will get knocked down for a variety of reasons in a variety of situations. You will find a lot of company where you get knocked down to. What will set your life apart from others is how you pick yourself up, dust yourself off and march forward for the rest of your life. Life will knock you down, picking yourself up one more time than you are knocked down is what life is all about. Yeah, what he said. And keep in mind that sometimes you'll be passed over for no good reason.. life is often kind of unfair that way. Sometimes looking for alterrnatives helps.. does RailCamp have a lock on participating in rail volunteerism in your area?
Not exactly understanding what you mean by a lock. If you mean active involvement, the NRHS doesn't really touch my state. There's a few different ops here, but nothing really with a 30min or less drive. There's the Steam Railroading Institute (home of the PM 1225), the Huckleberry in Flint/Mount Morris (my frequent) and the Henry Ford. Pretty much all volunteer/small scale stuff, no big organizations involved. I guess you could say for the Henry Ford/Greenfield that it's run by Ford, but the base is still pretty small.
Your points have no merit in THEIR way of doing things.
NEVER be last minute unless you are submitting your Income Tax and you have to make additional payments beyond what has been already been withheld and make SURE you beat the deadline with the postmark.
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