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Last, best chance for railroad steam locomotives

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, May 21, 2021 9:32 PM

Sara T
Not sure if it will become summer this year, could be going on until September: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=763UU8pH6Do

It's never really very long before that season comes on you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk9QFRvVQQ0

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, May 21, 2021 5:20 PM

Juniatha

Smile

 

You're back!

No, I see you're not.

Tragic.  

Oh well, young Mr. Harrison's got a new video in 10 minutes, he'll cheer me up.  Fine lad!

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, May 21, 2021 5:19 PM

Sara T
September Song - Mantovani; so gray, so misty ..

Ahhh, Maestro  Mantovani!  Sara, you made my afternoon!  It was one of those days when nothing went right, until it finally did.  Whew! 

"September Song."  Perfect for a rainy Sunday with a big pot of coffee, a stack of pastries, and the Sunday newspapers. We only get one around here, that's one of the things I miss about NJ.

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Posted by Sara T on Friday, May 21, 2021 5:05 PM

Yes, I agree.

AngelAngel

Sara

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Posted by Juniatha on Friday, May 21, 2021 5:01 PM

Smile

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Posted by Sara T on Friday, May 21, 2021 1:17 PM

Oh, hello Flintlock,

Huh! I would love to do so, over here we are craving for sunshine, it had been warmer before but then fell back to that old winter lingering on. This is "German weather", tough time formerly for the steam loco drivers, unwavering having their right ellbow stick out on the window sill, nose in the wind, cap pulled down and cold rain stinging the face. Not sure if it will become summer this year, could be going on until September:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=763UU8pH6Do

September Song - Mantovani; so gray, so misty ..

Have a nice time

Pana Saraszewa

Smile

 

 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, May 21, 2021 11:26 AM

Sara, if you've got more rain than you can use feel free to send some over here, my lawn could use it!   Storm

It hasn't rained here in two weeks!  Umbrella

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Posted by Sara T on Friday, May 21, 2021 11:08 AM

Overmod,

no problem!

It can happen. (it! it! it!)

Oh my, it rains and rains over here and stays cold.Well, not that cold, but "fresh" anyways. I'm sitting here with my black winterjacket on and have a pillow where I sit on the bank,my laptop on top of my lap ..

Sara

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, May 20, 2021 9:48 PM

Well, I thought it was a good idea, anyway, and I apologize if I mistakenly thought it came from her.  Let's edit the reference out... done on my side.

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Posted by Sara T on Thursday, May 20, 2021 8:21 PM

Overmod

meanwhile I have asked Juniatha about "your 2-8-2" and she said she has nothing to do with any such type.

So all about it is also "out of the air". Don't know where you have it from but is sure was a misunderstanding somehow.

Never mind.

0S5A0R0A3

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, May 20, 2021 5:33 PM

As I recall, an interesting 2-8-2 can be developed to match what a good American 4-8-4-sized engine in typical for-profit North-American-type engine service could have achieved, when all the modern maintenance, thermodynamic, etc. conveniences (including better circulation, air preheat, and exhaust-steam recovery) are applied.

With a good steering lead truck on any of the proven European patterns, something made easy with a lead driver with roller bearings in a cannon box with lateral-motion accommodation, there need be no more than a single leading axle.  Likewise optimizing combustion efficiency, using the right kind of thermal barrier coatings and circulators, etc. at the firebox end removes any need for two axles, Bissel vs. weight-distribution, etc. considerations and allows only a single trailing axle to 'do everything well'.  The actual engine remains at 4-8-4 proportions, and the weight on drivers remains at least as good; only the wasted overall length and added structure... and the parasitic power needed to tote that around, steer it, etc. ... can be dispensed with.

Many of the same arguments apply to improving a N&W Y-class locomotive (which thermodynamically is a good enough 4-8-4 that ATSF considered using its boiler design to one of its 4-8-4 chassis) with IP modulation a la Chapelon.  Now as fast as you need a freight locomotive to run, with acceptable augment, and 'as much compounding' as moment-to-moment the design can use and stay balanced...

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, May 20, 2021 4:16 PM

zugmann
As far as the small group of people that hold onto some belief that steam locomotives are superior and will rule again?  Jsut let them have their fantasies.  Reality proved otherwise. 

Well Zug, people do  need their fantasies you know.  You've got yours and I've got mine.  Look at our avatars for cryin' out loud!  

That fact alone probably says more about us than words ever can!

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Posted by Sara T on Thursday, May 20, 2021 4:03 PM

Chegewish

I already posted it. You described it and it's ok with me.

Perhaps not ok with the one from the comix book who would have liked to see us go into a verbal fight. 

But I don't usually do what another comix figure wants me to do

and I believe you don't either.

Confused

Sara

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Posted by SD70Dude on Thursday, May 20, 2021 2:59 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH
Sara T

But if you don't want to invest in positive thinking you may of course just stand off but then please don't spoil it by grumbling.

I'm hardly grumbling.  Steam locomotives in regular service are a small distant memory to me so I have trouble understanding why diesel fans like me are looked at askance for having little interest in steam.  I do look for old diesels still in service but steam, not really.

By the same token I was born after cabooses disappeared, so I guess I don't know enough to miss them.

In my experience diesel, steam and electric traction fans are all equally good at grumbling about how awesome the 'good old days' were.  Positive thinking indeed.

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by zugmann on Thursday, May 20, 2021 2:08 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH
I'll try to let that go except for when they imply that diesel fans are not real enthusiasts.

 

Gatekeepers are annoying in any hobby.  Sometimes the worst part of being in a fandom are the other people in the fandom. 

 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, May 20, 2021 1:56 PM

I'll try to let that go except for when they imply that diesel fans are not real enthusiasts.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by zugmann on Thursday, May 20, 2021 12:49 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH
I'm hardly grumbling.  Steam locomotives in regular service are a small distant memory to me so I have trouble understanding why diesel fans like me are looked at askance for having little interest in steam.  I do look for old diesels still in service but steam, not really.

I learned a new word today: askance.  I love learning new words!  

 

As far as the small group of people that hold onto some belief that steam locomotives are superior and will rule again?  Jsut let them have their fantasies.  Reality proved otherwise. 

 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

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Posted by Sara T on Thursday, May 20, 2021 11:08 AM

Ok.

(Old diesels grumble when idling, but diesel fans don't? I see.)

Sara

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, May 20, 2021 10:05 AM

Sara T

 

But if you don't want to invest in positive thinking you may of course just stand off but then please don't spoil it by grumbling. 

I'm hardly grumbling.  Steam locomotives in regular service are a small distant memory to me so I have trouble understanding why diesel fans like me are looked at askance for having little interest in steam.  I do look for old diesels still in service but steam, not really.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Sara T on Wednesday, May 19, 2021 5:09 PM

Hello Overmod

 

Uhm, Juni's 2-8-2? I don't know that one. I mentioned her express type, in basic parameters a continuation of the classic French Mountain types: four-cylinder compound and double bogie eight wheels tender. The other is a more radical resurrection of the 50-80 class she likes so much, yet as a dual purpose type, a de Glehn four-cylinder compound large wheeled 2-10-4, or 2-10-4+4-4 to name the complete wheel arrangement. She looks fast, capable, and aesthetically stunning on the side elevation drawing alone!

The BR 06 (Baureihe - series):

If you wanted to make a good working 4-8-4 of it, then you'd have to change a lot: all the boiler, the middle drive and inside cylinder disposition, the lateral adjustment of front bogie, rear truck and coupled axles. And then you'd find that a 4-8-4 cannot be made to fit on a 23 meters turntable, just too many axles and not enough length. Ok, you could make a small "dual-purpose" 4-8-4 with, say, 1750 to 1800 mm wheels (in inches, uhm-uhm: 69 to 71 in) but what is this not-quite grown-up 4-8-4? 

Oh, the Russians had one, the P36 with 1850 mm wheels (in inches, pooh: 73 in) and that on a profile over 5 meters high (200 in). I saw one when I traveled the Trans Siberian railway for a filming project, put up as a monument next to the platforms, I think it was in Tsheeta if I remember right, I just saw the locomotive from the window of the car while the train entered the station: impressive, a bit "1950s futuristic" in the style of the early space orbit technics, powerful but not really elegant, just really Russian, it let no doubt about it could pull away any long express train, 18, 20 or 22 coaches, makes no difference, although it weighs about 1/2 of the American 4-8-4s. They are obviously really proud it, and have one or a few in running order and absolutely clean now. See this test train of three cute new silver coaches and a clean green locomotive:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc9voW2002s

You can scroll forward to about 4:30 to see the train start; later fast runby: clacking of rail joints but no noise from the rods!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnzH91pKnVA

"Ретро-поезда АПРЕЛЬ 2018 (паровозы П36-0218, ФД20-1679, Л-0073 и ЛВ-0233)"

Got it? (Gee) A nightly scene in a big station: another P 36, in blue with yellow (?) stripe and colorful emblem on the tender. You see, don't complain about the "fear-of-failure" diesel behind the steam loco, here they get the Bo-Bo-Bo electric right in front! No need for pulling for steam when "rolling" away by electric power. 

Then scroll FF to about 9:00 and see the blue P 36 0218 again (and an absolutely Rrrusssian rail car passing by and the Decapod series L with some ubelywhoop tender and an FD (Felix Dzeshinsky) then at 15:20 the паровозы П36 (parowsow P36) starts again ..

And here's a cab ride in blue P 36 0218. Note regulator opens forwards, valve gear is by a lever and probably some servo. Signal tower to loco crew is much the same as on every railroad, only it's in Russian, geee ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqaxliz1yyA

 

Extension: you should see this steam festival (at 2x speed)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVnanCywPj4

and listen to this as background music for it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gm7L3LEyz8

gives one a light and floating almost unreal feeling!

Just a big steam locomotive (what? well, I should say so)

in light blue with white stripe and bright red wheels ..

 

And here they are doing the diesel railcars, well, uhm, see yourself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN9Hja208XI

In spite of their space-age futuristic front end styling they are brought to .. ( the roof front reflects the hair cut fashion then, gee..) .. at 5:00 work begins. This must have been the like when a Tyrannosaurus went dining, with all the manners (at 11:15 it breaks its backbone, hoo-hoo-wow, brutal!) Uuuaah, no, I got enough.

 

What were we about? Oh, yes the 4-8-4 ..

Sara

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Posted by Sara T on Wednesday, May 19, 2021 2:45 PM

Chegewish, (or ~ so)

I'm tempted not to answer that at all, so see it as my extra gratuitous courtesy if I do:

>>regular maintenance costs<<

If you make, say, two excursions a year same as today with old locomotives, then it's your own fault if you go "maintaining" in the shed on a weekly basis. 

Indifferent

>>how would they meet environmental standards<<

Well, how do they now?

Man, I really thought you would imagine that a new steam locomotive fired by light oil (see the Swiss prototype made of 52 8055) is cleaner than a diesel engine because it's external continuous combustion with any relation λ to air surplus as considered best suitable. Overmod would just write "See the test results there, I have them here but can't undig them at the moment" (no, he wouldn't, he'd do better Angel)

But if you don't want to invest in positive thinking you may of course just stand off but then please don't spoil it by grumbling.

Thank you for understanding, thanks.

Sara

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, May 19, 2021 11:14 AM

Sara T
What do you think?

Thumbs UpThumbs UpThumbs Up, of course.

Something I'd add would be a couple of the North American Locomotive Company designs by Riley Deem... one of which was explicitly based on Chapelon's 2-10-4 and another of which was a gear-conjugated PRR Q2.  (Deem was a Lima engineer in the Golden Age.)

And I'd like to see someone engineer the shortcomings out of the BR 06 and then replicate it as a European counter to T1 5550... Whistling

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, May 19, 2021 10:08 AM

And how much would the regular maintenance costs be for this exercise in esthetic pleasure?  And how would they meet environmental standards?

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Sara T on Wednesday, May 19, 2021 9:49 AM

The one application that no one has considered is the one sail ships have made a come-back: as a device of educated recreation and sports activity. The best sail ships that have ever been built have been built long after sailing had freed itself from the constraints of bread and butter construction and handling of the commercial sail shipping. Like steam locomotives, during commercial cargo shipping, many tall ships went on worldwide tours with so-so equipment, crews that were "shanghaied" in cheap harbors were badly paid and went under a stringent regime of a captain who was an absolute and ferocious ruler and mercilessly beat ship and crew over the seas to meet appointments. That's probably why every year up to 10% of the ship's tonnage was lost in notorious regions. The steam locomotives as much as they were condemned for being what they were, were also "starved" out of service by a minimum of insufficient and indifferent maintenance. I have asked a number of former steam train line side photographing / filming /sound recording fans if the experience wasn't compromised by seeing the locomotives suffer seriously. Some were thick-skinned or played being it, but some others after considering said "Yes it was less than enthusing" "It did take something off" "It was annoying to a degree" Now these better enjoy the clean and generally well cared for preserved steam locos on touring the lines now. In Britain, say what you want, they have attacked the next step and have started building steam locos new, now still to the old plans of the renowned historic figures looming large through history-laden heavily with heroic stories of men and machines like Shakespear's dramas. Why not take the next step and go for locomotive types not realized. I would say, the planned BR class 10 4-8-4 (however please not with a - 8 - tender but with a double bogie 4 - 4 type), then one of the tragic Chapelon 1950s types, for instance, the 2-10-4 that had once really been started when the final cut fell upon it, in Germany one of the many plans for an eight coupled express type, 4-8-2, 2-8-4 (4-8-4 only if allowed to have a longer than 23 meters total wheelbase) or, my personal choice Juniatha's 4-8-2 type or the 2-10-4.

Those would be good-looking new steam locomotives that could take up with electric traction as concerns speed and schedule. 

 

What do you think?

SARA 05003

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Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Wednesday, May 12, 2021 9:03 AM

Overmod

For those interested, Shaun McMahon is giving an online presentation on the LVM 800 concept on May 15 at 3pm Argentina time (GMT-3 so a couple of hours later than most USA time).  While the presentation will likely be in Spanish, neither the questions nor comments will need to be, and I'm sure you can arrange proper contact with Mr. McMahon for more.  Register here:

https://forms.gle/CmE8CsY1jLbJsS4X6

(the link printed on the materials was a disaster, in all caps and contrasting colors)

 

 

Hey, everybody, the link shows the Webinar to be May 13, which is tomorrow Thursday.  Be sure and sign up if you are interested.

If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?

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Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Monday, May 10, 2021 9:53 AM

Overmod

For those interested, Shaun McMahon is giving an online presentation on the LVM 800 concept on May 15 at 3pm Argentina time (GMT-3 so a couple of hours later than most USA time).  While the presentation will likely be in Spanish, neither the questions nor comments will need to be, and I'm sure you can arrange proper contact with Mr. McMahon for more.  Register here:

https://forms.gle/CmE8CsY1jLbJsS4X6

(the link printed on the materials was a disaster, in all caps and contrasting colors)

 

The link has a button for an English-language translation and offers a simple-to-fill out form.  The talk appears to be the first in a series in using biomass as an energy resource -- remember, the LVM 800 was intended to burn ag waste.

Do you have any idea if this will be recorded?  Should one register to be able to see the recording, or will this be posted to a Web site as other talks of public interest often are?

By the way, US Central Daylight Time is 2 hours earlier than Argentina, so the talk at 3 PM in Argentina should start at 1 PM in Chicago or Milwaukee.

If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, May 9, 2021 7:19 PM

For those interested, Shaun McMahon is giving an online presentation on the LVM 800 concept on May 15 13 at 3pm Argentina time (GMT-3 so a couple of hours later than most USA time).  While the presentation will likely be in Spanish, neither the questions nor comments will need to be, and I'm sure you can arrange proper contact with Mr. McMahon for more.  Register here:

https://forms.gle/CmE8CsY1jLbJsS4X6

(the link printed on the materials was a disaster, in all caps and contrasting colors)

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, May 9, 2021 7:13 PM

.

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Posted by Sara T on Saturday, March 27, 2021 3:18 PM

>>As those Spanish speakers would say, "Quando hay hambre, no hay pan duro."<<

Oh, yes, ohhh yes!

Sara

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