BackshopThe size locomotive needed for a once-a-year mainline steam excursion on a Class 1 and that needed for a 20-30 mile shortline that runs every weekend during tourist season are two entirely different things. For the first, you need at least a Mountain or Northern. For the second, a large 10-Wheeler or Consolidation or small Pacific is fine.
Remember this carefully in all discussions of the general subject.
I don't consider out-and-back scheduled trips on 'captive' tracks to be "excursions" in the usual (or Amtrak's) sense. But that is really more a nitpick than a meaningful argument here. If we look at the recent discussion of suitable 'tank engines' (for replica construction to serve on small tourist-style lines) we can easily appreciate that even middle-sized Pacifics may be too big for 'requirements' or even for some of the physical plants involved. (That's really just another nitpick, too.) The key is to appreciate the very different need of tourist railways from touring excursions, even ones like those of the recent 611 program where trips are scheduled nearly every weekend in the season.
Roger Waller very famously concentrated on the small end of the market, actually coordinating some high-tech developments for the rack-railway market. One of the original premises in this thread -- at least I think it was this one -- involves the potential market for "new" smaller power when the existing locomotives begin to wear to the point either significant 'non-historic' (to use a dangerous euphemism) modifications are required to keep running economically or there is risk of economically-irreplaceable damage to the 'historic fabric'. One of the great premises of the 5AT project was to fill this particular niche effectively for many British heritage railways; North America doesn't have nearly the prospective demand (or potential profitability) but there's still adequate potential for, say, a good modernized 2-8-0, based on an S160 perhaps, with all the operating mod cons built in for easy operation and maintenance -- that does not imply all roller bearings, but does imply good and consistent mechanical bearing lubrication... you get the idea. As with the USRA, having a standard locomotive with standardizable parts makes both cost and maintenance procedures better. The question then becomes: what can be the analogue to GM financing of dieselization from the '40s on that would make new steam practical for tourist railroads interested in it?
I don't consider out-and-back scheduled trips on 'captive' tracks to be "excursions" in the usual (or Amtrak's) sense. But that is really more a nitpick than a meaningful argument here. If we look at the recent discussion of suitable 'tank engines' (for replica construction to serve on small tourist-style lines) we can easily appreciate that even middle-sized Pacifics may be too big for 'requirements' or even for some of the physical plants involved.
I think some here are talking past each other. The size locomotive needed for a once-a-year mainline steam excursion on a Class 1 and that needed for a 20-30 mile shortline that runs every weekend during toursit season are two entirely different things. For the first, you need at least a Mountain or Northern. For the second, a large 10-Wheeler or Consolidation or small Pacific is fine.
CSSHEGEWISCHThey are almost too big to be practical excursion locomotives.
You have evidently never looked at the cost of running steam excursions.
Famously the actual operating cost of 'large' locomotives only amounts to about 5% to 10% of the overall expenses, with insurance being just about as large for the big engines as for anything capable of pulling any practical number of cars people would actually be interested in riding in. So the longer the train you can pull, up to the limit of interested people riding it, the better your potential return will be. I think the (many!) discussions of this over the years on RyPN have something like 18 cars being about the minimum that pays for itself -- and you won't get this easily out of some piddling little Mikado or Pacific.
There is a secondary issue, which is the ability to keep the train out of "traffic's way" on a modern railroad. That implies, at least to me, that a 'vanity cushion' of available horsepower (or measured a different way, torque at speed) can be highly useful both in operating and in convincing people in authority at various railroads that you should be allowed to operate in the first place.
The T1 Trust might have had a better chance of completing a new locomotive if they considered a K4 or even an M1 rather than the expensive engineering experiment that they are currently contemplating.
Perhaps, but there is no point. The Trust isn't building a locomotive to run fantrips.
There's a perfectly good M1 waiting for anyone who thinks it's a 'better alternative', and at least one K4 that is closer to operation than most people probably think. It's relatively easier to be able to 'mega-price' seats behind the K4, which is still one of the famous locomotives of the world, than it would be for a restored -- let alone a replica that would have to justify its existence solely as a 'paying proposition', unlike the situation with the Trust -- locomotive like an M1, or one of the G5s being at least theoretically restored in the relatively near future. (Don't you just love those Carterian weasel words?)
Part of the problem here seems to be that most of the steam locomotives being discussed for restoration could be part of the subject matter in "The BIG Engines" in June 1968 TRAINS. They are almost too big to be practical excursion locomotives. Perhaps something along the lines of SR 4501 or a light Pacific would be more representative of everyday steam power and wouldn't be as expensive to restore or operate.
Flintlock76 georgeh I would love to see the big SP cab forward currently in the Sacramento museum to be brought back to life. You know, there was a time in the '90s when some thought that might happen. Phillip Anschutz, then CEO of the Southern Pacific was visiting the museum and looking at that SP cab-forward, rubbing his chin, seemingly deep in thought. The rumor mill kicked into overdrive that maybe, just maybe... But of course, nothing happened.
georgeh I would love to see the big SP cab forward currently in the Sacramento museum to be brought back to life.
I would love to see the big SP cab forward currently in the Sacramento museum to be brought back to life.
You know, there was a time in the '90s when some thought that might happen.
Phillip Anschutz, then CEO of the Southern Pacific was visiting the museum and looking at that SP cab-forward, rubbing his chin, seemingly deep in thought. The rumor mill kicked into overdrive that maybe, just maybe...
But of course, nothing happened.
Rubbing one's chin - deep in thought and digging deep into one's finances to restore something such as a Cab-Forward are entirely separate activities.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Travis, just wanted to make you aware of the Pere Marquette 1225 which is in Michigan and the project to rebuild the PRR T-1 #5550 Trust. Based on the worldwide interest in large American steam demonstrated by the Big Boy run out to Utah and back, I don't think it has peaked yet.
I've been on the WP&Y...it's a beautiful ride. The thing that it, the Grand Canyon Ry and a few others have in their favor is the scenery. They have a lot of business from people who don't care about the ride, just the scenery and destination. It's hard to make it work when the train itself is the main attraction.
As far as isolated tourist rail lines, let's not forget the White Pass & Yukon. As I recall it's the No. 1 in ticket sales. Of course it helps that a few thousand cruise ship passengers decend on the port each day in season.
It might also help if EBT wasn't owned by a scrapper intent on getting high value out of the assets ultimately, but unwilling to tie up even low-hanging OPM, let alone his own, to get back to operation.
Major trolley museum almost right across the street, too.
I think at least part of the 'big problem' is that to get to those attractions from any major road, (1) the route from the highways is poorly marked or indicated, and (2) goes over a considerable hill on a two-lane road going and coming. You could go by way of Mount Union and fan the ex-PRR on the way, but much of that lies in the fan-shaped arcs of valley in that part of the mountains and 'drives a lot slower than the crow-flies distances on a non-topo map indicate.
zugmann Flintlock76 It's no wonder that an operation like the East Broad Top is just about inactive, if it's not in the middle of nowhere it might as well be. Not that far off the turnpike, down the road from Raystown Lake. Not that far in the middle of nowhere, it's just that EBT management was stuck in the 1950s and had absolutely no clue how to market itself. Part of it was also refusing to do any special events to draw more people (even though the spectactulars in the fall were well-patronized). They did let one group take over operatons for a year, and that group actually did stuff like Thomas and Christmas trains (and provided some narration!), but they then didn't use them after that year. Some people are just beyond help, I'm afraid.
Flintlock76 It's no wonder that an operation like the East Broad Top is just about inactive, if it's not in the middle of nowhere it might as well be.
Not that far off the turnpike, down the road from Raystown Lake. Not that far in the middle of nowhere, it's just that EBT management was stuck in the 1950s and had absolutely no clue how to market itself. Part of it was also refusing to do any special events to draw more people (even though the spectactulars in the fall were well-patronized). They did let one group take over operatons for a year, and that group actually did stuff like Thomas and Christmas trains (and provided some narration!), but they then didn't use them after that year. Some people are just beyond help, I'm afraid.
As the meme says...
Although seriously the EBT's troubles being blamed to location is strange in my opinion compared to the collection of succesful tourist railroads out west or further in the back country that would kill to be as close to a city as the EBT was. The Nevada Northern has somehow managed to run two steam engines, a running steam crane, a small fleet of diesels, start restoration on a third steam engine, grow their audience and reach out to people across the world via their viral "cat marketing" with Dirt; yet somehow they do it with only 14,000 people to visit in a good year. It goes to show that via outreach to a world stage even the people who can't visit will still contribute via online donations, fundraising or even buying a coffee mug with Dirt on it to have shipped to their home.
I guess the secret EBT needs then is a new owner with a shop cat they can spam online. Or sponsor part of Jim Wrinn's Big Boy chase vest IDK
Thanks for that update Zug! Good to hear from someone in the area "on the ground" with better information that the rest of us.
Flintlock76It's no wonder that an operation like the East Broad Top is just about inactive, if it's not in the middle of nowhere it might as well be.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Personally I would like to see more small stuff restored. We already have a a bunch of big stuff running and I think some more publicized smaller stuff would be nice!
Near were I am from, in Toppenish Wa,at the NP railroad museum they are currently working in restoring an NP 4-6-0. Now personnally I am looking forward to that more than the Big Boy. It’s something different!
I think the focus of restorations should be to preserve the more unique examples of steamers. I’d say ideally if we came up with a list of all the restored steamer we should see a variety of road names with a variety of wheel arrangements and types.
Also I think we should run the stuff we restore! What’s the point of putting so much money into getting a steamer running if it doesn’t run!
Just my opinions!
Regards, Isaac
I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!
Patrick, Pere Marquette 2-8-4 1225 in Owosso MI gets out on occasion on tracks of a friendly regional railroad.
Several other large engines that were restored in the 1980s and operated for some tone and were fabulous see, but retired (in excellent condition) with no place to run include Cotton Belt 4-8-4 819 in Arkansas, Frisco 4-8-2 1522 in Missouri, and SP 4-6-2 2472 in California (this is a really big Pacific).
Locomotives stored outdoors in droer locales such as the desert or indoors at facilities such as the Illinois Railroad Museum would typically be the best candidates for restoration, but anything can be restored with enough money!
True all that. The successful operations that will hopefully be here 50 years from now all own their own track and typically (though some exceptions) run smaller power (no Mountains, Northerns, Berkshires, Articulateds). A few representative operations which by no means is a comprehensive list:
Valley Railroad
New Hope & Ivyland
Strasburg Railroad
Great Smoky Mountains Railroad
Everett Railroad
Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum
Mid-Continent Railroad Museum
Lake Superior Railroad Museum
Boone & Scenic Valley Railroad
Abilene & Smoky Valley
Durango & Silverton
Cunbres & Toltec
Niles Canyon
Even the Grand Canyon Railway runs a light Mikado as its largest unit, and then only occasionally.
Granted a few places will be running larger steam on a more frequent basis. Reading & Northern will run their Northern 2102 a bit more frequently than most large power can get out, because they own the track, as will the Western Maryland Scenic with 1309 (although it will be interesting to see how fuel and maintenance costs compare to a 2-8-0). And the Black Hills Central run the 44-inch drivers off their logging Mallets out of necessity due to the terrain.
But even Jerry Joe Jacobsen ran his light Pacifics the most frequently when he owned Ohio Central, and places like the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad and Steamtown might run steam more often if they had smaller power to run. (Though the 765 visits are fantastic!)
The big units we all love - 614, 765, 261, 844, 4014, 3751, 4449 all get out sporadically, and for that we are most thankful.
Reliable lighter power for the operating museums will continue to be crucial to keep steam operating in to the latter half of the 21st Century.
Unless I'm mistaken, the rebuilt (1920) Reading 2-6-4Ts had more than 6 tons bunker capacity and could run on lighter than 65lb rail. It might be interesting to see if the weight of the 'full' boiler went up or down with the increased tube spacing, and whether the benefits of better circulation were realized in practice.
There's one other thing concerning the success of a steam operation that no-one's mentioned yet, including me. It's a phrase real estate professionals use all the time...
"Location! Location! Location!"
As I see it, for a steam operation tobe successful, it needs more than "one-time" visitors. It's going to need visitors that come multiple times, and a good population base to draw a good amount of "one time" visitors as well.
A location within easy driving distance, say two hours or at the maximum three hours, of a major population center is almost imperative. It's no wonder that an operation like the East Broad Top is just about inactive, if it's not in the middle of nowhere it might as well be.
A good location is almost as important as trackage is.
No matter what is new built or restored to operation - there needs to be a place for the locomotive to operate. Without owning track the projects are doomed to be 'stuffed and mounted'. Memorials to a bygone era. Getting the engines is the easy part - getting the railroad to operate them on is the cost that no one thinks of.
Yup. Sometimes it is just fun to have a “what if” discussion, which is what part of this thread was doing.
At the same time, the Brits are realizing that for steam to be around after another 30 years or so when all their current stock of steam locomotives are 90-100 years old, it is going to require a modicum of new build construction, so that is what they are doing to ensure steam is around for the public to enjoy in 2100.
Eventually that will happen in the US. Maybe not for another 20-30 years or so, but eventually.
Atlantic and Hibernia Has anyone done a serious study to examine the size of the steam locomotive market? Suppose money were no object I started a company for new build steam? How many locomotives (standard gauge) could I sell in a year, or two? Kevin
Has anyone done a serious study to examine the size of the steam locomotive market?
Suppose money were no object I started a company for new build steam?
How many locomotives (standard gauge) could I sell in a year, or two?
Kevin
Other than the two 1955 Disney built locomotives, the other ones that come quickly to my mind as 'modern American steam builds' are all either replicas of things like The Rocket or Tom Thumb, the two steamers at Promontory Summit and the Leviathan which was built following the Promonotory examples. Of course the PRR T1 currently underway to is worth mentioning again here. I know there are more, that is just what comes to mind. Its not that new build steam isn't happening, its just happening so sporadically for even just 3' gauge let alone standard gauge stuff to sort of make it not a reliable buisness in my opinion. Even shops such as Wasatch Rail Contractors that have done work on operational and static steam displays for standard gauge equipment, seems to run a small side buisness of live steam and small amusement park engine repairs to keep the lights on for the bigger projects; and mind you their entire buisness is really focused on repair and restoration of existing engines with very little ventures into new builds.
Now if you could somehow convince a tourist railroad to buy some 0-6-0, 2-8-0 or 2-8-2 new build using vegtable oil fuel or something you'd probably find a market somewhere for it. But I am willing to bet the number of US tourist lines looking into completely brand new power right now is small with most of them preffering to restore older engines. While restoration of a vintage steamer is pricey, most places can aquire them at near scrap value making them cheaper to obtain than any new build has a chance to be.
Here is an older CRRNJ 2-6-2T that has a somewhat British flair to it, built in 1902:
Further east, Boston & Albany had a large fleet of 2-6-6Ts that could run on 80-pound rail, built in the early 1900s and rebuilt by Lima in 1920:
In 1928 B&A upsized a bit with five 4-6-6t units which were the culmination of tank locomotives for suburban service in North America (looking a bit like a down-sized Hudson) - these required 100-pound rail:
Meanwhile, north of the border in Montreal CNR developed their plucky 4-6-4t units in 1914, capable of running on 80-pound rail:
When CRRNJ went for increased power for their tank engines, they worked with Baldwin in 1923 to develop a unit very similar to the CNR 4-6-4t units, but a bit heavier, needing 90-pound rail - some of their "chunkiness" comes from what looks like the very wide Wootten firebox needed to burn anthracite culm:
Perhaps a new-build oil-fired version of the B&A 2-6-6t would be the most suitable for our theoretical "railroad museum steam in 2120" funded by railfan billionaire philanthropist Thursteam Howell III:
Boston and Albany also had some similar 2-6-4T and 4-6-4T suburban locomotives.
Logically (I know, I know) there are people starting from scratch when there are plenty of has-been excursion engines that are now dormant but could probably be brought back to life cheaper but there isn't the money available.
"A camel is a horse designed by a committee!"
Yeah, I suppose you could apply that to CNJ 225! The thing is, the inspiration for that CNJ engine WAS the Canadian National's engines of a similar type.
The CNJ had been running a shuttle from Newark to Elizabethport and back for a number of years, eventually it was called "The Scoot," and had been using 2-6-2T engines, some of which went back to 1904. Well, they needed something better, looked North, and said "That'll do nicely!"
They did!
With all due respects, CNJ 225 looks like it was assembled from an assortment of spare parts of at least six different classes of locomotives.
A diesel equivalent might be one of the re-powering jobs from the mid-1950s.
Not Disney World, but Wayne’s World:
Maybe this gets closer to the universal new build steam for the small out-and-back operations to be funded by the railfan billionaire Thursteam Howell III.
Interesting story about the "Ward Kimball," ex "Maud." When the text mentioned #55's rehab into an ersatz Chicago Elevated 2-4-4RT I knew there was something about the "Ward Kimball" at Disneyland that was familiar. It looks an awful lot like the steam engines that ran on the New York elevated around the turn of the 20th Century, just not as big, those NYC engines were standard gauge. And it goes without saying by that they were nowhere near as ornate, just "basic black" as it were.
Anyway, I found some old film from 1899 of the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VJaNgmAqvY
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