When F. Nelson Blount acquired his collection the last stand of steam had largely passed from the United States, at least on mainlines. The show, such as it still was, was on commuter trains and intermediate distance services in Canada, mostly around Montreal and Toronto and to a limited degree on CN subsidiary, the Grand Trunk Line, in Michigan. So the initial Steamtown collection heavily tilted to Canadian National (CN) and Canadian Pacific (CPR) power. This has long been the primary criticism of the Steamtown collection, although Canadian engines are certainly very much like those used in the USA.
As extensively discussed in a parallel thread, a former CN commuter tank "Hudson" 4-6-4T #47 was one of the first engines to run on the then Monadnock, Steamtown and Northern operation which Blount (very briefly) ran along the shores of Lake Sunapee in New Hampshire, on the former Boston and Maine secondary by the operating as the Claremont and Concord. Operations began with the #47 on July 22, 1961.
This was a really pretty ride, with classic New England scenery and the little Hudson tanker was ideal, as it was truly bi-directional (and there was neither a turntable nor a wye on the line). Barely a month later, on August 25, 1961, an ICC inspector turned up and ordered the engine out of service, as its maintenance records had been lost in a fire in Canada before Blount got her.The engine has never run again. I saw it, in dirty, rusty, shabby condition, deep in the Steamtown deadline, but could not get safely close enough to get a decent photo.
As discussed in the earlier thread, this engine was set aside in very good condition and could yet be restored, but there is no indication that Steamtown has any such ideas. In the absense of at least puttling it under cover, it might better go north to Expo Rail, the national Canadian rail museum in Delson, Quebec, which has no similar power in its collection.
UPDATE: Per the helpful post below it turns out the Expo Rail museum has sister #49 and evidently another example exists in Valleyfield Jct. Quebec. Accordingly I modify my suggestion and hope Steamtown can move this engine, which is unique in the USA, into the display area of the roundhouse as soon as possible. There are indeed very few mainline tank engines (as opposed to industrial switchers) still in existence in the United States and as #47 arrived serviceable (so many years ago--alas) to Steamtown perhaps there is hope for her yet.
I was lucky enough to get a ride behind her, during the one month of this engine's operation, as my dad never missed a new steam train ride! We drove from our summer place in upstate New York to Bradford, NH and back in two days and I still remember the lovely ride, but sadly dad's photos were a loss to Hurricane Andrew, which destroyed his retirement home in Florida in 1986.
This introduces us to Steamtown's back yard area. There are amazingly no barriers to keep visitors away from the long lines of dead engines and cars in the back yard(s) at Scranton. Indeed there are even a few interpretive signs in front of engines here, so clearly visitation is not forbidden. In over an hour no one challenged me and at least two NPS employees walked by, plus I was passed by the Yard Shuttle, behind one of the DL&W painted F units.
This area is almost as spotlessly clean as the roundhouse. Were it not for the long lines of forlorn equipment, it would seem almost like a newly constructed facility (which in a sense it is, since both the Steamtown Foundation after 1985, and the NPS after 1990, did largely rebuild the Lackawanna Shops complex. As noted above, there actually is some interpretive signage amidst the rusting relics here, but there is no clear path, no flow or logic to why some things are in one area and others in another and the overall impact is distinctly sad. Here's a look at a small part of the dead line.
In the foreground is ex-CN 2-8-2 #3377, in deplorable shape and bereft of its tender. Behind it lies an engine which, in Blount's time and even later at Bellows Falls in the Steamtown Foundation era, was in visually good shape, the unique, fast former CPR 4-4-4 "Jubilee" #2929. The best that can be said for her now is that enough of her paint remains to hint at what a beauty she was!
Here too the question must be why Steamtown retains these engines if this is to be their fate. Expo Rail in Delson owns a sister "Jubilee", but perhaps the new museum at the former CPR roundhouse in downtown Toronto, or the outstanding British Columbia museum in Squamish, or even the CPR itself, might repatriate her.
The #3377 has probably served as a parts cache for CNR 2-8-2 #3254, which was the last engine acquired by Steamtown (ironically after the NPS take-over and after all the outcries from NPS officials at the time about the supposedly inappropriate "Canadianess" of the collection). #3254 was also the last "big" Steamtown-owned engine to run back in 2012. As noted yesterday, she waits an unclear fate inside the roundhouse (see Part One of this report). If Steamtown intends only to strip the #3377 for parts it might be merciful to complete her disassembly and scrap the rest.
Two other backyard American engines are worth at least a mention. Steamtown has two former Nickel Plate engines. In addition to the freshly painted, fast NKP #759 Berkshire, there is also a little jewel in rusty, but recognizeable condition behind the roundhouse. Indeed 4-6-0 #44 is even granted an interprtive sign. If you look at the condition of her stack in this photo you can see the heartbreak here.
Finally perhaps a happier note can be sounded for Lowville & Beaver River 2-8-0 #1923, which sits just outside the door of the restoration shop, as if at least awaiting new paint. This is an unusual engine, as it originally ran in Cuba in sugar train duty and then moved to the lumber line in the Adirondacks. Interestingly she was described in a photo in Jim Boyd's excellent 2011 "Steamtown in Color" book as awaiting rstoration even then, so she has not progrssed much, alas, in the last four years.
The heart of the back yard/dead line can only be viewed from above, on the walkaway into the Mall at Steamtown. This hard to reach part of the dead line conceals some of Steamtown's smaller American engines, including Maine Central 2-8-0 #519. Other residents include a long string of very rusty former Lackawanna MU Electric coaches, a streamlined diner painted dark green, marked Lackawanna, (the DL&W never ran streamlined diners painted dark green and this is not a Budd car--so is not one of the EL Diner Preservation Society's two "Phoebe Snow" cars--a minor mystery which perhaps some reader can solve?) and such one-ups as the extra tender for the NKP #759 from her Iron Horse Ramble days, which a ranger said was actually originally the tender of a New York Central Hudson. I have not been able to confirm this either--another question for an informed reader!
What is in beautiful shape throughout the yard are first generation diesels, but most of these belong, like the multiple F units in DL&W and Reading colors, to various railfan groups, or in the case of the many Alcos, to the contemporary Delaware Lackawnna RR, which runs the Pocono Mainline trips for Steamtown, as well as it's own freights as far southeast as Portland, where it interchanges with NS.
The next posting in this series will include some thoughts on a way to reliably revive steam here and on how to focus the NPS on what it best can do--interpretation.
Carl Fowler
One correction. Exporail has sister 4-6-4T #49, in good cosmetic condition last time I saw it in their main building. There is a second displayed at Vallee Jonction in southeastern Quebec. So they are already well represented in the Montreal area where they spent virtually all their working life. No real need to send the Steamtown example back north.
John
I'm pleased to know there is a CN 4-6-4T in Quebec. However at least as of 9/11/15 the Steamtown engine was outside and not looking good.
There is a fascinating series of posts by other readers about possible fates for the little CN Hudson on my earlier posting which asked about the missing journalism about Steamtown's unfinished restoration jobs.
By the by--is the engine in Quebec indoors?
Of course my question is about the second Quebec engine. I was at Expo Rail last year, but missed #49.
I agree that if Expo a Rail already has a CN 4-6-4 it has no need for a second. Thanks.
You know, I can understand their inability to provide a full restoration for these items. But what I cannot understand is why they can't afford a few gallons of paint and a cap for the stacks. These photos illustrate disgraceful irresponsibility.
Tom
Thnaks for posting these important, if heartbreaking photos. If ever a place needed a "Friends Of" organization Steamtown certainly seems to be a prime candidate, if for nothing else than to have the "Friends" come in with buckets of Rustoleum and boxes of paint brushes to stop the corrosion.
As I said in another thread there'd be nothing wrong with asking the Canadians if they'd like some of their old engines back. It's better than having those machines rust and rot away.
ACY You know, I can understand their inability to provide a full restoration for these items. But what I cannot understand is why they can't afford a few gallons of paint and a cap for the stacks. These photos illustrate disgraceful irresponsibility. Tom
Unfortunately a few gallons of paint will not help much. If the paint job is to last, first a great deal of surface preparation will be needed. Once that has been accomplished (not cheap) then there is the question of what sort of coating. Average paint might give you five years before they start looking decrepit again. Think of how many pieces are in the back lot and you will realize how many will have to be redone each year.
A better bet might be one of the modern two part coating systems such as an epoxy based one. That will probably give you 15-20 years but it needs professional application. I'm guessing a bit but $40-50,000 might cover each locomotive.
The best solution is to get them under cover, protected from the sun and rain even if not completely enclosed. Then any quickie (or full) restoration will have a chance of lasting.
Firelock76Thnaks for posting these important, if heartbreaking photos. If ever a place needed a "Friends Of" organization Steamtown certainly seems to be a prime candidate, if for nothing else than to have the "Friends" come in with buckets of Rustoleum and boxes of paint brushes to stop the corrosion.
I hear that a new one is starting up.
http://theironhorsesociety.com/
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
The situation described above suggests that Steamtown and other museums (the IRM was once in this situation) may have a collection that's too large to properly preserve. Instead of trying to preserve everything and coming up short due to lack of money, personnel and time, the museum's directors need to review everything and determine what should be kept in light of the museum's mission and budget.
CSSHEGEWISCH The situation described above suggests that Steamtown and other museums (the IRM was once in this situation) may have a collection that's too large to properly preserve. Instead of trying to preserve everything and coming up short due to lack of money, personnel and time, the museum's directors need to review everything and determine what should be kept in light of the museum's mission and budget.
I agree with this train of thought, and it makes me wonder though if that is their current plan. I'd rather see these old and rusted pieces in this setting where I can at least go and enjoy them as they are, than have them in the middle of the woods somewhere where only a few know about them and the masses cannot get there to see them. I was at Steamtown for their railfan days, and I was saddened to see so many pieces of equipment that were obviously well beyond restoration, but I was also happy that I could see them, period.
I think money is the number one factor here, and while we would all wish to have them restored, or even just protected from the elements, it's going to take a donor with big pockets to do this. If I had that kind of money, I certainly would donate for the cause.
i think they should get all the locos in the outer parking lot under cover if this can't be accomplishedthen they
Need to send them to organizations that can restore them
We had a discussion similar to this a year or so ago. In my opinion Steamtown really needs to take a good hard look at what they've got, what they can realistically afford to keep, and auction off the rest.
Deaccessioning isn't a sin, lots of museums that have more stuff than they know what to do with do it all the time, and the money comes in VERY handy in preserving and interpreting what they DO have.
They've got a prime location within easy driving distance of a major metropolitan area, but if they're going to get people in there they've got to get some steamers running. The general public can see diesels in their backyards if they want to, and most folks can't tell the difference between an F3, or a Dash-9, or an SD-70.
Steam is definately another matter. Even non-railfans usually stop dead in their tracks when they see a steam locomotive hot and running.
Firelock76Steam is definately another matter. Even non-railfans usually stop dead in their tracks when they see a steam locomotive hot and running.
If that was true, then you'd think Steamtown would have no trouble getting visitors.
Zug baby, they've GOT nothing up and running! They have to get "Special Guest Steam Locomotives" to get people to come to the place! They have to get "Special Guest Diesels" at other times to pull trains!
If that's the way they want to do things then they're not going to last.
Firelock76If that's the way they want to do things then they're not going to last.
bear in mind that steamtown is a national park and being federal has to submit work for bid.
they had a nicely painted Reading T-1 and Diesel nearer the entrance
i couldn't see the links to photos above
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Thanks for posting that shot of 47, Greg. That's the erstwhile candidate for restoration I suggested in another thread, but I suppose you know that.
To my admittedly unexpert eyes it certainly looks like it's all there. Since it hasn't been run in 50 years (but was running at the time it was pulled from service) aside from corrosion I wouldn't expect there's too much mechanical wear on the unit. The boiler could very well be another matter, but probably not an impossible job.
I look at it this way, the Western Maryland Scenic has that old C&O 2-6-6-2 under restoration which hasn't been run in nearly sixty years. If that one's in good enough shape to bring back to service after being out in the weather all those years the 47 should be, if not a cakewalk, just as restorable as the 2-6-6-2, and with probably less effort.
If it was up to me I'd try to get an expert like Lynn Moedinger up from the Strasburg to give it a good look-over and evaluation.
Firelock76To my admittedly unexpert eyes it certainly looks like it's all there. Since it hasn't been run in 50 years (but was running at the time it was pulled from service) aside from corrosion I wouldn't expect there's too much mechanical wear on the unit. The boiler could very well be another matter, but probably not an impossible job.
sorry for the poor picture quality of an engine restoration that was near completion (yes olive green). They explained that the final cost was much more than original estimates. The restoration involved checking mechanical parts for micro-fractures that identified many more parts than orignally estimated needing replacement. Not sure what a micro-fracture test might reveal for #47.
Firelock76 Zug baby, they've GOT nothing up and running! They have to get "Special Guest Steam Locomotives" to get people to come to the place! They have to get "Special Guest Diesels" at other times to pull trains! If that's the way they want to do things then they're not going to last.
So how come back when they had several engines running, they still couldn't draw in the visitors?
Just having steam engines isn't going to do much. Even Strasburg doesn't seem to put them in the seats like they used to. I don't think steam power is quite the draw some beleive it is.
That's because the philosiphy "If you steam they will come" isn't necisarily true.
In the end, most of the public doesn't really care how the train is being pulled, so long as the kids sop screaming, the train keeps moving, and they have a pretty view.
So who are we steaming for now, if not the public? Could it be us railfans are the only real reason to steam anything at all?
-S. Connor
I'm telling you guys that if they got a Pennsy K4 Pacific 4-6-2 running at steamtown they couldn't keep the folks away! That engine is so famous and so absolutely classic it would be a history making event. Folks would come from all over and it carries the state name on the tender too!
Who wants to go to Scranton to see a Canadian National engine run? - and a Baldwin 0-6-0 ain't gonna get it done either! Folks know when you are serving sawdust in the bread.
Those state railroad museum Pennsy K4s are just siting there rusting - why not loan one of them and complete the overhaul - NPS should take some of those government big bucks for a good Belpare boiler overhaul and or a new boiler backhead - like they did to N&W 1218 - for crying out loud its not that big of a deal! - little of the Colorado enthusiasm for General Palmer's engine would go a long way - and oh yah I guess they got that in Strasburg! - if anyone had enough common sense to be paying attention.
Wouldn't hurt for STEAMTOWN to run a decent train over some more interesting tracks either - Look at Cumbries & Toltec Senic and Durango Silverton - these railroad are packing the cars with hundred dollar seats and in the parlor cars good bar service and they are sold full for weeks in advance. You can't tell me Pennsylvania doesn't have some similar tracks worth riding!
Cumbries & Toltec was long and tedious but an absolute thrill to ride! Joe Park Ranger has gotta get with the program here -
For example - in Michigan - there is an island in the middle of Lake Superior - Isle Royal - absolutely pristine and unchanged since time began. The National Park Service has this island as a park - the run a steamship - well ship - across the famous lake that sank the Edmund Fitzgerald to this island two or three times a week. This is some serious committment to navigation on this inland sea. A thrilling ride - calm and shrouded in fog one day - a raging sea worse than the North Atlantic the next day!
On the Island Park they run or contract hotel services - food preparation and dining - and supervise serious scuba diving businesses where the general public dive on many of the pristine shipwrecks that foundered on Isle Royal. This is NPS at its best -
Seems if NPS gave a damn about STEAMTOWN they could contract out Strasburg RR or some other major competent steam builder to do on site locomotive overhaul and construction of some of this fine collection. A bunch of exhibits are not going to cut it or make STEAMTOWN USA anything but a place of shame.
You know it and I know it!
Doc
The intern and most of us in the hobby know that a PRR K4 is a big deal, but the public at large does not, nor do they particularly care. This holds true whether it is a static exhibit or under steam. Live steam may get people inside the front door, but it will take more than that to hold their interest.
Again we are confusing what Steamtown mission was to be. It was created to interpret steam railroading, including locomotives, equipment and back shops. It was not purposes to operate mainline steam trains. From that perspective, steam town has done well. Any steam operations has been bonus.
Joe park ranger has not failed as some may think, but saved a failing or failed operation in the form of Steamtown. Most of the equipment Steamtown inherited from Steamtown USA was in bad condition and non operational. Its not like they had any operational success in Vermont with or with out local environmentalist.
I doubt it was a kind of operation that the NPS would voluntarily take over. With that said, they made a go of it, and we as a rail fan community need to try to find balance, financial support beyond the feds in a type of public/ private venture to return steam to steam. I won't happen with the current format in place. It is an ideal location for this to happen, it is truly sad that success in terms of opeartional steam has eluded us so far.
Dr DWho wants to go to Scranton to see a Canadian National engine run? - and a Baldwin 0-6-0 ain't gonna get it done either! Folks know when you are serving sawdust in the bread.
The 0-6-0 in the photo was work being done in the park shops for another organization and paid for by that organization.
This is going to be a long post, so if any of you want to go get a cup of coffee or a snack that's OK, I'll wait.
You're back? Good! Here we go...
After reading all the various Steamtown connected threads and post let me say there's no-one I've seen who doesn't care about this subject. Differing opinions certainly, but indifference, no. And that's good.
We live in a different world nowadays, that's for certain. For any museum or history site "stuffed, mounted, and behind glass" doesn't cut it anymore. If you're going to get people away from the 24-hour sports channels or off their i-Pods or away from their computer games those in the museum business have to make it exciting, entertaining, and stimulating or the folks just aren't going to come. Blame it on Gen X, Gen Y, or Millienial short attention spans, poor history education in schools, or whatever. The fact is so.
The folks at Mount Vernon, George Washington's home, realized this over ten years ago. Recognizing the lack of familiarity the modern-day public has with General Washington they built a large interpretive center to educate the visitors about the man, who he was, the world he lived in, and what he accomplished.
I went and saw the same several years back, after being a frequent visitor to Mount Vernon for the previous 20 years. I had some misgivings, kind of expecting a "Washington World" treatment. Boy was I wrong, and couldn't have been happier to have been so wrong! From the orientation film to the multi-media displays the Interpretive Center was a thrill! Just the ticket for todays visitors. Mount Vernon "gets it." And you should have seen the crowd of visitors.
Just so you know (that I know) Mount Vernon is operated by a private foundation, not the NPS or any governmental agency.
A year or two later Lady Firestorm and I visited Gettysburg. Now I had been there in the late Sixties with my family and had seen the colossal "Cyclorama" painting of the battle painted in the 1880's. We learned the "Cyclorama" had been located in a new interpretive center and had been made the centerpiece of a "Sound and Light" show explaining the battle. "Oh brother," we thought, "It's going to be 'Gettysburg-Land', probably with 'GettysBurgers' for sale in the snack bar! A great painting turned into a gimmick for people with short attention spans!"
My God, we couldn't have been more wrong! The sound and light show was spectacular! One of the highlights of the trip! We even went back to see it a second time! Again, I couldn't have been more pleased to have been so wrong! The NPS, as far as Gettysburg is concerned, "gets it." And yep, it was crowded with visitors.
As an aside, even Civil War and Revolutionary War re-enactors have realized they've got to "ham up" their battles to make them look more like "battles" for the current viewing audience. The re-enactors "get it." And they typically draw pretty good crowds of spectators who whoop it up like they're watching a football game.
Live steam at Steamtown isn't important to keep the railfans happy. There aren't that many railfans out there inproportion to the general population. To get a good constant visitor stream the NPS is going to have to make Steamtown a "destination" in one way or another, exciting, stimulating, and fun, or the people just aren't going to come.
The plain fact of the matter is if you don't "show-biz" it up a bit nowadays you're sunk. And a previous poster said mainline steam runs weren't part of the Steamtown plan. Beg to differ, they WERE doing mainline steam runs, at least until the 4-6-2 and the 2-8-2 wound up with expired times. I've seen the videos.
Maybe when all is said and done Steamtown was just another "pork-barrel" project that's just run out of gas. The money was appropiated and spent, and now "they" don't know what to do with it. I don't know. I hope not.
Oh well, that's enough. Hope I made my point. That's all.
Steve
steamtown is unique in that it is a national park, not a museum, part of the Smithsonian.
I normally enjoy hiking at national parks: Glacier, Yosemite, Crater Lake. But enjoyed biking at Acadia and Gettysburg. I can understand why Gettysburg should be more of a museum than a national park. Biking allowed us to see more of the battlefields and city up close and appreciate the terrain and distances involved.
My expectations were not very high when I visited steamtown. What surprised me weren't the locomotives but the working shops. Behind the 0-6-0 was a small diesel and I think a 2-8-2 in the process of being restored, waiting on the next round of (federal) funding. I look forward to seeing it again in another ten years. Lots of potential for improvement.
One wonders if the nps could sponsor or charter an operating locomotive like ns does for its steam program. Ns partnered with the owners of 4501, 611 and 765 for. Certainly this would provide a great operational situation for the locomotives operators and brings steam back to the park.
Nps can still continue restore its locomotive's as funding becomes available.
A win win for all concerned.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.