The testings of 610 in 1975:
Okay, the heck with the T1 Trust - everything's bigger in Texas and we need to do an I2 Trust - rebuild the 610 with the one-piece cast frame and cylinders, Delta trailing truck and Boxpok drivers. No slipping on those drivers! And for excursion service no need to take it up to 80 mph - 50-60 mph will be just fine. Name it the "Sam Houston" and designate it as Texas' official steam locomotive. Run occasional excursions on weekends on Trinity Railway Express and connections. Yes it is a big, big unit. But it's Texas!
PHOTOS FROM THE 50s:
604 with a very unusual 4th disc driver
610 after being donated to the Fort Worth Southwestern Exposition and Fat Stock Show at the Will Rogers Coliseum in 1951.
638 at the State Fair of Texas in Dallas in 1950. It was scrapped in 1955.
647 with stripped off lettering on tender and cab and without pilot.
This and the following photo: The dismantling and scrapping of 650 at the Marshall Shops on May 26th, 1953.
656 looking very unusual and non-T&P without the Elesco feedwater heater.
PHOTOS FROM THE 40s (PART 4):
The following five photos show those engines that were rebuilt in the late 40s (1947-1949) with frames and cylinder blocks made out of one piece, disc drivers, lightweight rods and delta trailing trucks for 80 mph operation with flagship passenger trains like the Sunshine Special. Only nine 2-10-4´s were rebuilt like that and were reclassified as I-2 class. Having 255 psi boiler pressure, 97900 lbs of tractive effort and a maximum speed of 80 mph, they represented the pinnacle of T&P steam engines but due to fast diselization lasted only until 1951.
608 with original straight smoke stack. The I-1 series (600-609) had straight smoke stacks in contrast to all the later classes that had flared stacks. Unlike all the other eight rebuilt 2-10-4´s that had high smoke stacks, 608 retained it´s original smoke stack. Also some non-rebuilt 2-10-4´s from the other classes received a higher smoke stack at some point in time, but the smoke stacks of the I-1 class were never heightened nor flared. Interestingly, 608 did not receive a rectangular second sand dome like some of the I-1a, I-1b and I-1c classes later did, but received a smaller round second sand dome identical with the second sand domes the I-1d class were built with in 1929.
616
625
636
649
665
This and the following photo: 666, the "Devils Engine".
667
An unknown 2-10-4 in passenger service. Interestingly, there is no baggage or mail car at the headend but only a wood express reefer.
An unknown 2-10-4 in passenger service. This engine can be identified as I-1d class because of the small round second sand dome. The headend equipment on this train is unusual because there are two horse cars instead of a baggage or mail car.
PHOTOS FROM THE 40s (PART 3):
639 with second sand dome added
642
This and the following photo: 653
This and the following photos: 657
658 with high smoke stack
PHOTOS FROM THE 40s (PART 2):
615 with second sand dome added and a very unusual 5th disc driver
616 with straight smoke stack that was only common on the I-1 class (600-609)
618 with high smoke stack
621 with second sand dome added and high smoke stack
622
628 with high smoke stack
630
634 with second sand dome added
This and the following photos: 635 with second sand dome added
PHOTOS FROM THE 40s (PART 1):
609
610
This and the following photos: 611
612
614 with second sand dome added
Great stuff, De Luxe!
Those original wood pilots almost look "Polar-Express-sized".
On the shot of 657, it must be moving along pretty well because the movement of the running gear is a bit blurred, connoting some speed there.
And the last one going over the overpass - that is one photo done in the manner of O.Winston Line - really nice!
I zoomed in as far as I could to 500% and it looks to be possibly 646 or 648, but not certain.
Really great stuff!
T&P definitely had photogenic classes of power.
PHOTOS FROM THE 30s:
637
652
657
An unknown one speeding through Texas.
PHOTOS FROM THE 20s:
Hanging on the crane inside the T&P Marshall Shops
601
632
652 with broken off pilot. The pilots on the I-1, I-1a, I-1b and I-1c series were originally wooden and larger. Because they were often damaged, the larger wooden pilots were replaced by smaller steel pilots in 1929 and the I-1d series was delivered with these smaller steel pilots straight out of the factory.
T&P 2-8-2 800 in Fort Worth TX...
T&P 4-6-2 715 on the turntable at Marshall TX - interesting caption but maybe they mean connected to a water tender?...
T&P 2-10-4 657 cleaning out the cylinders before a run...
T&P 4-8-2 909 in Dallas TX...
T&P 4-6-2 719 at the water plug in Mineola TX - notice Boxpok main driver...
T&P 2-10-2 5?? at the head end of a freight train...
T&P 4-6-2 719 on freight at Mineola TX...
T&P 2-10-2 526 in a broadside view at Fort Worth TX...
T&P 2-10-4 668 in a low-sun-angle portrait - notice main driver counterbalancing...
T&P 4-8-2 906 at Fort Worth TX...
T&P 2-10-4 655 on the ready track with a water canteen coupled to the tender...
Some T&P pictures from Louisiana...
T&P 4-6-2 712 in Alexandria Union Station...
T&P 4-6-2 718 at speed in the Bayou State...
Another T&P 4-6-2 at Alexandria LA - T&P power always looks to be in pristine condition and looking sharp...
T&P 4-6-2 704 in New Orleans LA branded for "The Eagle"...
T&P 4-6-2 700 at New Orleans LA also branded for "The Eagle"...
T&P 4-6-2 700 in another view with "The Eagle" branding...
T&P 2-10-4 649 in Shreveport LA clearing out the cylinders at the start of a run...
T&P 2-8-2 802 at Shreveport LA...
T&P 0-8-0 482 in Shreveport LA...
T&P 2-10-4 623 at Mineola TX tied to another long string of freight...
Kgbw49- Terrific photos and effort posting these...also on the PA thread and Western Maryland..spent hours studying those pics. Very nice and thanks.
Definitely agree that T&P power was classy from smallest to largest!
Nice photos you posted! Yes, I know these are photos of SF Texans in passenger service. As far as I know the best train they ever pulled was the Grand Canyon Limited, but they never pulled the real flagship trains like the Chief or Super Chief, while the T&P Texans pulled the Sunshine Special which was THE flagship train on the T&P.
Although I love big steam, I was never a fan of SF late big steam. I just don´t like the looks of the SF Texans and Northerns. And they have nothing remarkable to me what distinguishes them from most other locomotives. But I love the SF articulateds even though they weren´t successfull. I think their 2-10-10-2, 4-4-6-2 and 2-6-6-2 (with articulated boiler) types are very impressive and interesting engines.
But I love T&P steam. T&P steam clearly differs from any other road and their looks give them a special appearance and character. My most favorite T&P steamers in order of favor are the Texans, the M-1 Mountains in Eagle paint, the semi streamlined Pacifics in Eagle paint with disc drivers and the Santa Fes. Too bad T&P steam operations ended already in 1951, but it´s no surprise the road diselized so early because it did financially well and operated through "oil country" so that diselization was completed very quickly.
Good that you mentioned the Texas Ranger. I always tried to find out the routing of this train. Can you tell me between which cities it operated? So far I only know El Paso being one terminal of it.
I also always wanted to know if there ever was a T&P passenger train that operated through the entire mainline of the system from New Orleans to El Paso. Or did all T&P passenger trains start/end in Dallas/Fort Worth?
I know that the SP was probably the road to go when you wanted to get from New Orleans to El Paso because SP offered direct through passenger trains on this route since 1894 already, but still in my opinion that shouldn´t be a reason why a T&P passenger train from New Orleans to El Paso via Dallas/Fort Worth should not have existed.
Texas and Pacific had some good looking lighter power also...
T&P 4-6-2 720 on the Texas Ranger at El Paso TX...
T&P 4-6-2 710 on the Louisiana Limited...
T&P 4-6-2 714 broadside view...
T&P 2-8-2 800 at Dallas TX...
T&P 2-8-2 805 at Texarkana TX...
T&P 2-8-2 808 broadside view...
A couple of exceptions to ATSF Texas-types on freight only...
ATSF 2-10-4 5021 on the Grand Canyon Limited at Belen NM...
ATSF 2-10-4 5023 on varnish...
Of course, ATSF also had 65 enormous Northern 4-8-4 units with 80 inch drivers to cover passenger assignments...
ATSF 4-8-4 3775 at San Clemente CA...
ATSF 4-8-4 3774 at unidentified location...
ATSF 4-8-4 3760 on The Chief...
ATSF 4-8-4 2926 on unidentified varnish...
What I find very interesting about the T&P Texans is the fact that despite their 63" driving wheels they were so successfully upgraded and modified so that they were able to pull T&P´s flagship trains at 80 mph without problems, while the bigger SF Texans with their 74" drivers never were used on premier passenger trains and also never were allowed to run faster than 50 mph. Guess that´s why T&P never had any Northern types because their Texans were better than most Northerns. Also an interesting comparison between these two Texas types is the fact that the T&P Texans had a maximum tractive force of 97900 pounds while the huge SF Texans "only" had 93000 pounds.
There's hope, oldline 1. An outfit called John Pechulis Video has done restorations and enhancements of old 8mm and Super8 films and the results are incredible, you'd swear you were looking at vintage razor-sharp 16mm.
I've got several of his rail video DVD's and am more than satisfied with them.
www.johnpmedia.com Check it out, he's got some good stuff.
However, I don't think he's done anything with 610 yet.
The T&P 600's were beautiful engines to me. Long, lean and just powerful looking standing still. In the Ft. Worth Stockyard area I worked on the 610 getting her ready to run on the AFT back in the early 1970's. I performed minor cleaning, painting and grunt work when I had free time. It was a great experience. Seeing her under steam was pure joy.
We ventured to Cleburne to see her pull the AFT into town for a maintenace stop. What a surprise to see her shiny black boiler covered in white residue from all the water residue from pop valves and whistle. Quite a shock as the last time I saw her she was shiny and bright.
When she visited the DFW area with the AFT we paced her from FW to Dallas and then back again several days or a week later. Very early hours of the morning running about 60 mph through Grand Prarie and climbing the stiff grade into Arlington was an amazing sight and sound. The whistle on the 610 has no equal and echoing in those otherwise quiet nights was haunting to say the least. Many thanks to the GP Police who knew it was futile to try to control the traffic and just let us roll with the big Texan!
It was a cold February night when, before sunup, she pulled in next to the 4449. They were side by side and the heat from her firbox, still hot from that run, was very comforting and welcome. They swapped engines and then we got the thrill of hearing the big GS-4 pulling through town blowing her whistle disappearing from sight and sound while standing in the warmth of the 610 thinking she was done and wouldn't run again.
Later we paced her pulling the Southern aux tender and caboose and cars to the East as she went on to another all-to-short career pulling Southern Ry passenger trains. On one of those trips I talked with Mr. Purdie and he said he sure wished the Southern had something like her back in the day. He was obviously impressed with "modern steam" compared to all those USRA engines they used. Further proof of the difference between Super Power steam and what came before from a great man who had experienced it all.
The 610 sits all dusty and quiet in Palestine hoping for a chance to stretch those long silvery rods once again. What a shame to hide such a beautiful machine away in a garage! Someday.........................???????????
My biggest regret is that the 610 fell into that abyss between 16mm film and digiatl DVD's. Her careers were documented on 8mm and Super 8 and they just don't compare to before and after. Maybe next time?
Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works
Trains Magazine published an article by Bill Withuhn in their February 1978 issue where they conducted dynamometer tests of the T&P 610 while it was in the Southern Railway steam program. This was the first ever test of a steam locomotive with a modern dynamometer car and the first time a steamer had been tested in the U.S. since the 1940's or 50's. The 610 produced a maximum of a about 4100 Drawbar Horsepower at 29 MPH (4500 Indicated Horsepower at 32 MPH).
Contrast that with a 5001-class AT&SF 2-10-4, which produced a bit over 5300 DBHP on test. If I recall correctly, when they dynamometer tested a 5011-class 2-10-4 (which had all roller bearings, less restrictive steam passages between the boiler and steam chest, and 67% maximum cutoff), it produced 5660 DBHP.
T&P 2-10-4 664 with a string of cars stretching to the horizon...
T&P 2-10-4 660 on the ready track with a water canteen - similar to Illinois Central and Norfolk & Western practice...
T&P 2-10-4 655 on the ready track with a water canteen...
T&P 2-10-4 653 fresh out of the shop...
T&P 2-10-4 653 on the high iron at Marshall TX...
T&P 2-10-4 650 with a water canteen out on the high iron...
T&P 2-10-4 646 at speed with a unit train of oil cans in 1948 - many years before the Bakken - locomotive has enough speed to outrun the camera shutter as evidenced by forward "lean" of the engine in the photograph...
T&P 2-10-4 600 on a reefer block...
T&P 2-10-4 612 leaving El Paso TX with a long train that seems to stretch clear back to New Mexico...
T&P 2-10-4 635 with a water canteen leaving Dallas TX...
T&P 2-10-4 637 making time with a reefer block...notice the brakeman on the tender at what has to be a significant rate of speed given the trailing smoke plume..
T&P 2-10-4 646 again with another unit train of oil cans at a different location...
A few for comparison purposes...
T&P 2-10-2 522 in a rare color photograph...the difference in design compared to the Superpower 2-10-4 is significant...
T&P 2-10-2 524 at Tower 55 in Fort Worth TX...
T&P 2-10-2 539 refueling at the oil tower...
T&P 2-10-2 542 on the ready track in a rods-down roster shot...
Here are a few T&P 4-8-2 passenger shots for comparison...
T&P 4-8-2 907 on The Southerner nearing Texarkana TX...
T&P 4-8-2 907 again on The Sunshine Special nearing El Paso TX...
T&P 4-8-2 901 on The Texan near Forth Worth TX...
T&P 4-8-2 903 waiting for the highball on The Sunshine Special at Fort Worth TX...
T&P 4-8-2 909 on The Sunshine Special at Fort Worth TX...
T&P 610 AFT shining like a new penny...
T&P 610 AFT service stop with admiring onlookers - the people give scope - these were big units...
T&P 610 AFT " and there she goes" angle...
T&P 610 AFT compadre SP 4449...
T&P 610 AFT compadre Reading 2101...
T&P 610 AFT rods down portrait...
T&P 610 Texas-style on the Southern...
T&P 610 on the Southern pulling half the county...
T&P 610 on the Southern at Knoxville TN waiting for the highball...
T&P 610 on the Southern lifting the pops at 255 psi...
T&P 610 on the Southern ready for the next run...
T&P 610 on the Southern - what a Southern 2-10-4 would have looked like...
T&P 610 AFT - hand off...
T&P 610 on the Southern - Major League All-Stars...
T&P 610 - Everything's bigger in Texas...
T&P 610 AFT - Takin' care of business...
T&P 610 American Freedom Train broadside...
T&P 610 AFT through the crossing...
T&P 610 AFT on the high iron...
T&P 610 AFT pounding through Texas...
T&P 610 working for the Southern - not the Sunshine Special but quite the string of varnish...
T&P 2-10-4 625 pulling a long string of high cars at Longview TX...
T&P 2-10-4 double barrels on the departure tracks...
T&P 2-10-4 646...
T&P 2-10-4 600 class unit...
T&P 2-10-4 648(?) leaving town with half the yard tied to the tank...
T&P 2-10-4 668 sanding the flues at Handley, TX...
T&P 2-10-4 615 broadside view...
One for comparison - T&P 2-10-2 518...
Another for comparison - high-stepping T&P 4-8-2 909 on the Sunshine Special...
Another T&P Mountain for comparison - 4-8-2 901...
De Luxe tomstamey They often were used on passenger trains in WWII. Two were stationed in Longview Tx to handle the Sunshine Special of the T&P and MP due to length of trains between Texarkana and Longview. Many handled not only troop trains but regular scheduled trains extra sections and they could keep the schedules. Do you know what was a typical length for the Sunshine Special between Texarkana and Longview during that time? I´m thinking about a Sunshine Special passenger train for the upcoming BLI T&P 2-10-4 in HO scale, so I would like to know more about the consist. Even more so I would like to know the paint scheme of the late heavyweight Sunshine Special. There are some nice heavyweight cars by Rivarossi and Branchline, painted into the blue and white Eagle scheme. I wonder if they would be ok for a T&P/MP heavyweight train powered by a 2-10-4, or if the cars should rather be dark green/olive green.
tomstamey They often were used on passenger trains in WWII. Two were stationed in Longview Tx to handle the Sunshine Special of the T&P and MP due to length of trains between Texarkana and Longview. Many handled not only troop trains but regular scheduled trains extra sections and they could keep the schedules.
Do you know what was a typical length for the Sunshine Special between Texarkana and Longview during that time? I´m thinking about a Sunshine Special passenger train for the upcoming BLI T&P 2-10-4 in HO scale, so I would like to know more about the consist. Even more so I would like to know the paint scheme of the late heavyweight Sunshine Special. There are some nice heavyweight cars by Rivarossi and Branchline, painted into the blue and white Eagle scheme. I wonder if they would be ok for a T&P/MP heavyweight train powered by a 2-10-4, or if the cars should rather be dark green/olive green.
Eric Hirsimaki's book Black Gold -- Black Diamonds, The Pennsylvania Railroad and Dieselization, Volume 1 (Mileposts Publications, N. Olmsted OH, copyright 1997) covers the PRR's decision to adopt the Lima/C&O 2-10-4 in some detail on pages 111 - 119.
A photo caption on page 114 reads:
Norfolk & Western's class A 2-6-6-4 1208 rolls through Tyrone, Pennsylvania on October 8, 1941 with a westbound freight. It was a highly regarded design, but it failed to impress the Pennsylvania. One thing working against it was the fact it was an articulated locomotive, a type long since out of favor on the railroad. The 1208 was returned to the N&W and plans were made to test other designs under consideration.
Hirsimaki says PRR considered nine various contemporary engines at the time: 1. N&W class A; 2. PRR Q1 4-6-4-4; 3. S.P. SC-9 2-8-8-4; 4. KCS J2 2-10-4; 5. WM M-2 4-6-6-4; 6. UP 4-8-8-4 (!); 7. C&O T-1 2-10-4; 8. C&O H-8 2-6-6-6; and 9. DM&IR M3 2-8-8-4.
The mind reels.
I doubt that any of these engines was actually tested on the PRR, aside from the N&W class A and the C&O T-1.
Tom
I am not aware of a J1 being pressed into 'emergency, gotta get it done' pax service, but who is to say...? I doubt it. I do know many roads used otherwise freight engines in pax service. The N&W used their K series Mountain Class at times, as did the NYC with their Mohawks. The C&O used their H-8 Allegheny articulated monsters on troop trains, and apparently it was quite a thrill.
The T&P engines were indeed fine, but being the first of their kind, were early and did not benefit from refinements that came for the newer superpower introduced at the beginning of the Big Exercise and later on into the 50's. C&O's wonderful T-1 engines were lent to the PRR who thought so much of the design that they essentially copied it with their J1s.
I wouldn't doubt that the Pennsy tested an articulated, and believe I have read that they did at least once, but their culture was rather strongly anti-articulated, so much so that they eventually agreed amongst themselves on the T-1 from the C&O. Even their later duplex types were non-articulated. I think the engine they did agree to trial might have been a 2-6-6-2, but I would have to defer to those who know their Pennsy history better than I do.
By the Pennsy J1 you also mean the equivalent C&O Texas Type.
From what I read the engineers on the Sandusky Line coal trains had the opportunity of a direct comparison and the leased Santa Fe power came out ahead.
The 2-10-4 was the top freight power on the Santa Fe. On the C&O, they were second to the Alleghanies, the 2-6-6-6.
The PRR rarely if ever used their J1s on passenger, but the Santa Fe did on occasion, quite regularly on troop trains. But maybe that is a red herring, since we are talking about a a locomotive in freight serivce. I'l give the J1 fans their due.
Did the PRR ever test operate a Y-6 or A from the N&W?
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