I think the current management of N&W is rather set against ever reviving steam operations
Although not impossible, 1218 was the process of rebuilding when the program was terminated thus the rebuild was never completed, she is now quite incomplete missing major items such as tubes/flues. NS has no desire to revive the steam program although they appear willing to host visting steam.
Dave
Remember that the restoration of 611 for steam operation is the project of the Museum, and not NS, although NS is giving full cooperation. I agree 1218 should get the same treatment, because the NS A was and is another outstanding steam locomotive design. It can happen if after the 611 is restored, enough money is raised and donated to the Museum to do the job properly, probably double or triple the funds needed for 611.
It would be nice, but seriously, any steam-operating society will almost always have trouble running just one. Right now I would think the museum has it's hands full with the 611. Operating any steam locomotive is a HUGE financial undertaking. I'm surprised the museum could afford to take both out for as long as they did. The 1218 was cosmetically restored after the program fell out from under here during her rebuild. Depending on how thorough the cosmetic restoration was, the locomotive may or may not be missing internal parts, i.e. flues, valves, compressors. It would be nice, but is unlikely to happen in the next few years.
It was my understanding that when the curtain fell in 1994 all the parts off 1218 were thrown in the tender, or loosely put back on, or in the case of the removed flues were shoved back in the boiler shell. As far I've heard nothing's gone missing.
Hope springs eternal. So if I hit the "Powerball" this weekend...
Firelock76 It was my understanding that when the curtain fell in 1994 all the parts off 1218 were thrown in the tender, or loosely put back on, or in the case of the removed flues were shoved back in the boiler shell. As far I've heard nothing's gone missing. Hope springs eternal. So if I hit the "Powerball" this weekend...
If hit hit? You'll bring back 1218? Man you would have a new best friend.......
Remember ALS #12!
From what I heard, much work on the Tubes needs to be done, I heard no because it will cost way too much money
That's not correct, it's well documented what happened when the end came. Take what Steve Lee, the head of Union Pacific's program at the time, wrote about it.
http://www.brucebharper.info/nwrwy/1218.html
Just ignore the nonsense where he essentially claims that Norfolk Southern did us a generous favor by not just scrapping her and had no right to be displeased in the slightest that she wasn't left complete.
Leo_Ames That's not correct, it's well documented what happened when the end came. Take what Steve Lee, the head of Union Pacific's program at the time, wrote about it. http://www.brucebharper.info/nwrwy/1218.html Just ignore the nonsense where he essentially claims that Norfolk Southern did us a generous favor by not just scrapping her and had no right to be displeased in the slightest that she wasn't left complete.
Well, we ARE lucky 1218 wasn't scrapped altogether. With the mention of so much stuff being scraped, and the boiler an empty shell, if 1218 were restored, and all of the missing parts remade, how much of 1218 would still actually be original?
Well, Big Steve said it, so I guess that settles it.
Not sure if that's sarcasm or not, but I assume he knows what he's talking about and that this isn't a fabrication that's erroneously credited to him. I've seen others that have said similar things as well.
Would be great if this isn't the case, but sadly, I think it's safe to take this as fact. That said, I really doubt that they have the resources or will to restore both and keep them running even if she was in similar shape as the 611. Would be nice though if she was in a similar condition that they could perhaps trade off every 15 years while the other was down for repairs, maintenance, 15 year inspection, etc.
Would keep both in steam without the full impact in time, money, and other resources they'd face if they were to try to keep them going simultaneously. Union Pacific sort of does such a thing right now as seen by 844 disappearing from 1991-1996 for a running gear overhaul and then again after 1999 when 10 of her tubes failed for a boiler and firebox overhaul from late 2001 through the end of 2004.
But her size, extra complexity, and the state she was left in would make a return much more expensive than 611's.
No, it wasn't meant in sarcasm. In my opinion just about anything Steve Lee has to say about big steam can probably be taken as gospel. Others many disagree but considering how long he ran the UP steam program, and successfully at that, we can be sure he knows what he's talking about.
The thing that strikes me though, and I've been wondering about this for years is, was there more than a bit of spite in the Norfolk-Southern management at the time (1994) when they cancelled the steam program? What I mean by this is not only did they end the program, they did everything humanly possible to make double-damn-sure it would NEVER come back. Closing the steam shop, selling off every piece of shop equipment they could make a dime on, selling off most of the passenger cars, and giving a command to the shop crew we used to call in the Marines "To the four winds, MARCH!"
Makes me think someone really detested the steam program and those responsible for keeping it going. You have to wonder, you know?
Firelock, I kinda think it was not so much hatred of the steam program itself as it was a bunch of accountants obsessed with the bottom line. After all, they love the dollar as much as or more than we love steam.
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"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Paul of Covington Firelock, I kinda think it was not so much hatred of the steam program itself as it was a bunch of accountants obsessed with the bottom line. After all, they love the dollar as much as or more than we love steam.
I would opine that it wasn't so much from the finance department as it might have been from large shareholders who viewed the steam program as an expense that was reducing dividends.
Norfolk Southern earned record profits and was busier than ever. I doubt many noticed or cared about the cost of the steam program when this happened.
It was the legal team that did it in. After several well publicized incidents, growing insurance premiums, and the every increasing litigious nature of our society, they didn't think it made sense when the program had been degraded to little more than a mere tourist operation giving train rides several dozen times a year with old locomotives frequently on busy mainlines that was offering little benefit to the corporation as a whole when put up against the risk.
That's why keeping it tied in with loftier goals is so critical to a program like this. Lose sight of that and it won't have long to live. Publicity, using it to help get messages out to the public like safety initiatives and the importance this industry has and will have in the future for the country, events for employees and dignitaries, tie-ins with community events, and so on is how a program like this best fits with a modern Class 1. That's something that Union Pacific has been a master at and why their steam program has been around for over half a century.
And Norfolk Southern working with partners rather than sharing the brunt of the cost and responsibility themselves also helps. Beyond the contribution of some rolling stock from groups like NRHS chapters and some minor things, Southern and then Norfolk Southern pretty much went at it alone especially with the power itself.
Now, the burden is significantly less on NS than it was before.
Well boys, it just seemed fishy to me that the steam program was cancelled before Graham Claytor's body was cold. It's like they were waiting in the wings for Mr. Secretary to pass on so they could strike.
I just think it was more than a coincidence that the steam program died shortly after Graham Claytor did. Even retired, I think the "Old Man" must have been a formidable presence.
S. Connor Firelock76 It was my understanding that when the curtain fell in 1994 all the parts off 1218 were thrown in the tender, or loosely put back on, or in the case of the removed flues were shoved back in the boiler shell. As far I've heard nothing's gone missing. Hope springs eternal. So if I hit the "Powerball" this weekend... If hit hit? You'll bring back 1218? Man you would have a new best friend....... Remember ALS #12!
Well Mr. Connor, there'll be a catch. It'll have to have "Jersey Central Lines" with the Statue of Liberty herald painted on the tender!
Just kidding! However, not having purchased any new steam engines since 1930 the CNJ WAS considering buying articulated steam locomotives for freight service in 1946 before they decided to go diesel. We can only speculate what they might have looked like.
Firelock76 Well boys, it just seemed fishy to me that the steam program was cancelled before Graham Claytor's body was cold. It's like they were waiting in the wings for Mr. Secretary to pass on so they could strike. I just think it was more than a coincidence that the steam program died shortly after Graham Claytor did. Even retired, I think the "Old Man" must have been a formidable presence.
Losing two major advocates and not having someone there to take up the reigns and champion the program certainly also played a role as you've said. This was regularly reported as one of the reasons why the program died when it did.
Leo_AmesLosing two major advocates and not having someone there to take up the reigns and champion the program certainly also played a role as you've said. This was regularly reported as one of the reasons why the program died when it did.
We might be set up for a repeat of this. Wick is likely to retire in a couple years and I don't think any coming up behind him have any great love for steam or trains in general.
Service levels on NS aren't as good as NS would like them yet they just spent a lot of time and energy supporting the Streamliners at Spencer. It would have been easy to say "we don't have time for this right now" but NS didn't. I wonder if this would be the case if Wick wasn't the CEO.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
As I understand it there's a whole new generation of management at NS who have quite a bit of the railfan in them. The old hostile-to-steam crowd has passed into retirement or gone on to other things. So I don't believe there's too much to worry about concerning NS steam.
That being said, corporate sponsored steam programs, heck, corporate sponsored ANYTHINGS are evanescent, they can change when the management does. The best thing to do is express your appreciation frequently and "enjoy it while it lasts."
This one's well placed to weather the storm at least no matter what happens down the line. They've carefully selected when to run to maximize the benefit for the corporation so far and show no signs of changing that and Norfolk Southern's burden isn't nearly what it once was. They're enjoying a lot of the benefit of a corporate steam program at a fraction of the involvement they once had.
Hopefully they know they have a good thing going here.
Take it easy Joe, everthing we've talked about here has a correlation as to whether 1218 steams again. As you've seen, it's not going to be as simple as some might think.
Wish it were otherwise, but we've got to be realistic here.
CwexWell Joe the simple answer is it's possible but unlikely. The 1218 needs a LOT of work and as such big $$$. I don't see the $$$ being there right now, or in the future to support a restoration and subsequent operation.
Certainly not in the immediate future, but remember it's THERE, it's more-or-less complete, so down the line anything's possible. Whoever thought a Big Boy would steam again?
Well, OK, the late Jim Boyd did. and I'll repeat his words again:
"Will a Big Boy steam again? Of course! Why? Like Mount Everest, 'because it's there!'"
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