I'll just say this about the possible restoration, if there's a will, there's a way. And believe me, if they do start trying to rebuild the Big Boy, they will have my full support.
The Lehigh Valley Railroad, the Route of the Black Diamond Express, John Wilkes and Maple Leaf.
-Jake, modeling the Barclay, Towanda & Susquehanna.
Ooooooh-Kaaaaay boys, let's turn it down a few clicks, all right? There's NOTHING in this thread worth starting a fight over. Nothing. Remember what I said about taking this stuff too seriously.
I wonder if Juniatha's got a little "Bommerlunder" she can pass around...
Thomas 9011But you have your opinion and I have mine, and I am going to leave it at that and not even respond to the rest of this gibberish.
You clearly haven't been there in many years since public excursions behind Union Pacific's steam, their E9's, and their Centennial have been very rare events for many years now. That said, not all of those private trips are strictly for Union Pacific employees. But the vast majority are closed affairs not open to general members of the public
As for this particular line that I quoted, it's not even worth responding to. So you got that little bit right at the very least.
There IS another Allegheny out there, it's in the B&O Museum in Baltimore, indoors where the weather can't get at it and keeping the "Big Yellow Banana" Hudson company. I've seen it, and the size of an Allegheny will take your breath away as much as the size of a Big Boy. I tried to get in the cab on my last visit but no such luck, it was swarming with kids! Oh well, we've got to recruit the next generation of railfans somehow!
Leo_Ames Thomas 9011Well Leo I am hardly floating between the earth and moon. I am sure if I told you two years ago Norfolk southern would spend millions painting locomotives into every heritage railroad they ever acquired you would tell me the same thing. I think you would also be telling me I was crazy if I said the UP wants to restore a Big boy. Then you'd be wrong. The only thing I was skeptical in regards to Norfolk Southern's heritage locomotives was the suggestion after the fact that they should gather them together for a family portrait. The thought of them pulling 60 million dollars or so of brand new locomotives for several days for photographs seemed very unrealistic. But thankfully they apparently thought the PR value was worthwhile enough to justify it. So it was a pleasure to be wrong there. And at least my prediction at these very forums that i made about the one spot accessible on the entire Norfolk Southern system that would be appropriate if they were to do such a thing ended up being 100% correct. I thought it was a good idea the moment I saw rumors about it. And as far as a Big Boy restoration is concerned, I've long dreamt of it happening, was extremely excited when I logged into Trains newswire the day the initial news hit, and I never thought that it was as unrealistic as it has been portrayed as over the years. And at least at one other popular forum dedicated to this hobby, I've been about the sole voice over the past week that is having any faith in there being a legitimate chance of this happening. Thomas 9011The Union pacific steam program is 100% public relations. They run it for no other reason other than the publicity and the media coverage. The Norfolk southern heritage paintings was also 100% publicity and for media coverage. If you are going to tell me that railroads don't spend millions every year trying to get the most publicity for their railroad then I don't know what to tell you. For starters, you don't have to tell me anything since my post had absolutely nothing to do with any of that one way or another. And they certainly do it for far more than publicity and media coverage. If anything, the biggest intangible benefit that keeps Union Pacific's steam program alive is company morale. It's a great tool to bring knowledge of your industry's history to your employees, to get your employee's excited about your company and their industry, to bring together your employee's and their family's, etc. The very fact that well over 90% of Union Pacific steam excursions for many years now have been employee only affairs closed to the public should be more than ample evidence that you're incorrect. Thomas 9011I think we have well established that Union pacific is indeed trying to acquire and restore a Big boy locomotive. Do you really believe they are just doing it to have some fun? Or are they doing it because having the Worlds largest operating steam locomotive is a public relations wet dream come true. The media attention will be massive with news outlets from every town coming to do a story on it. You're the one that thinks they're doing such a thing for the fun of it. I'm the one that was calling nonsense on your suggestion that they're doing things with steam just to compete with the other's steam program and that they'd spend millions just to say that they have the biggest and the best. They're doing these things because they see value in them for a wide variety of reasons. They're not doing this because they're in some Cold War style steam locomotive race to restore the longest, the most powerful, the prettiest, or the heaviest steam locomotive in the world. Union Pacific's decision here clearly has nothing to do with Norfolk Southern. Why would you even think they need to somehow catch up and surpass them when they have the 844 and the largest operating steam locomotive in the world with the 3985? Clearly they don't think there is some "steam locomotive gap" that they're going to throw millions at in order to steal the thunder that you think that Norfolk Southern's program stole. Heck I doubt the excursion around Horseshow Curve, probably the highlight of the program so far, even appeared on local news media past a 100 mile radius or so from Altoona... Thomas 9011I would definitely say Norfolk Southern is leaning towards getting some sort of steam program in operation again since it ran some steam excursions this year. They already have some sort of steam program in operation. Thomas 9011Why did I mention the Allegheny? Because it is the only locomotive that would not only get as much media attention at the Big boy but would likely eclipse it. Nonsense Even many railfans in 2012 couldn't really tell you much about an Allegheny. They were relatively obscure 60 years ago in the railfan world even and they're even more so today. Yet among the small minority of the public with some semblance of knowledge of steam, the Big Boy is a household word in 2012.
Thomas 9011Well Leo I am hardly floating between the earth and moon. I am sure if I told you two years ago Norfolk southern would spend millions painting locomotives into every heritage railroad they ever acquired you would tell me the same thing. I think you would also be telling me I was crazy if I said the UP wants to restore a Big boy.
Then you'd be wrong.
The only thing I was skeptical in regards to Norfolk Southern's heritage locomotives was the suggestion after the fact that they should gather them together for a family portrait. The thought of them pulling 60 million dollars or so of brand new locomotives for several days for photographs seemed very unrealistic. But thankfully they apparently thought the PR value was worthwhile enough to justify it.
So it was a pleasure to be wrong there. And at least my prediction at these very forums that i made about the one spot accessible on the entire Norfolk Southern system that would be appropriate if they were to do such a thing ended up being 100% correct.
I thought it was a good idea the moment I saw rumors about it. And as far as a Big Boy restoration is concerned, I've long dreamt of it happening, was extremely excited when I logged into Trains newswire the day the initial news hit, and I never thought that it was as unrealistic as it has been portrayed as over the years. And at least at one other popular forum dedicated to this hobby, I've been about the sole voice over the past week that is having any faith in there being a legitimate chance of this happening.
Thomas 9011The Union pacific steam program is 100% public relations. They run it for no other reason other than the publicity and the media coverage. The Norfolk southern heritage paintings was also 100% publicity and for media coverage. If you are going to tell me that railroads don't spend millions every year trying to get the most publicity for their railroad then I don't know what to tell you.
For starters, you don't have to tell me anything since my post had absolutely nothing to do with any of that one way or another.
And they certainly do it for far more than publicity and media coverage. If anything, the biggest intangible benefit that keeps Union Pacific's steam program alive is company morale. It's a great tool to bring knowledge of your industry's history to your employees, to get your employee's excited about your company and their industry, to bring together your employee's and their family's, etc.
The very fact that well over 90% of Union Pacific steam excursions for many years now have been employee only affairs closed to the public should be more than ample evidence that you're incorrect.
Thomas 9011I think we have well established that Union pacific is indeed trying to acquire and restore a Big boy locomotive. Do you really believe they are just doing it to have some fun? Or are they doing it because having the Worlds largest operating steam locomotive is a public relations wet dream come true. The media attention will be massive with news outlets from every town coming to do a story on it.
You're the one that thinks they're doing such a thing for the fun of it. I'm the one that was calling nonsense on your suggestion that they're doing things with steam just to compete with the other's steam program and that they'd spend millions just to say that they have the biggest and the best.
They're doing these things because they see value in them for a wide variety of reasons. They're not doing this because they're in some Cold War style steam locomotive race to restore the longest, the most powerful, the prettiest, or the heaviest steam locomotive in the world.
Union Pacific's decision here clearly has nothing to do with Norfolk Southern. Why would you even think they need to somehow catch up and surpass them when they have the 844 and the largest operating steam locomotive in the world with the 3985?
Clearly they don't think there is some "steam locomotive gap" that they're going to throw millions at in order to steal the thunder that you think that Norfolk Southern's program stole. Heck I doubt the excursion around Horseshow Curve, probably the highlight of the program so far, even appeared on local news media past a 100 mile radius or so from Altoona...
Thomas 9011I would definitely say Norfolk Southern is leaning towards getting some sort of steam program in operation again since it ran some steam excursions this year.
They already have some sort of steam program in operation.
Thomas 9011Why did I mention the Allegheny? Because it is the only locomotive that would not only get as much media attention at the Big boy but would likely eclipse it.
Nonsense
Even many railfans in 2012 couldn't really tell you much about an Allegheny. They were relatively obscure 60 years ago in the railfan world even and they're even more so today.
Yet among the small minority of the public with some semblance of knowledge of steam, the Big Boy is a household word in 2012.
As a former Union pacific Conductor and someone who makes regular visits to the steam shop In Cheyenne I have to strongly disagree that 90% of the trips the 844 or UP 3985 makes is for employees only. I think you have it the other way around. I would say at least 70% of the employees don't even know the Union pacific has steam locomotives, and even more than that could less about seeing it. I know when I was working for the UP in Portland and Seattle I would ask co workers if they were going to ride on a UP steam excursion. Not a single person wanted to see it and everyone else told me "I am around trains all day long, the last thing I want to do in my free time is be around more trains".
But you have your opinion and I have mine, and I am going to leave it at that and not even respond to the rest of this gibberish.
UP steam program is not 100% public relations.
Leo_Ames I can assure you that Union Pacific could care less what Norfolk Southern may or may not be doing with their limited steam program. If they follow through with this preliminary proposal, it has absolutely nothing to do with Norfolk Southern. And the same goes for Norfolk Southern. If Union Pacific does restore a Big Boy to operation, I guarantee you that they will not be initiating a locomotive restoration in an attempt to equal or one up them. And why the heck do you think, if there was even the tiniest shred of reality in that post of yours, that they would restore a Chesapeake & Ohio H-8 Allegheny that has no corporate heritage connection whatsoever with today's Norfolk Southern? Let's at least keep our tippy toes at least grounded here. I think your post must mean you're floating somewhere about halfway between Earth and the Moon... ;)
I can assure you that Union Pacific could care less what Norfolk Southern may or may not be doing with their limited steam program. If they follow through with this preliminary proposal, it has absolutely nothing to do with Norfolk Southern.
And the same goes for Norfolk Southern. If Union Pacific does restore a Big Boy to operation, I guarantee you that they will not be initiating a locomotive restoration in an attempt to equal or one up them. And why the heck do you think, if there was even the tiniest shred of reality in that post of yours, that they would restore a Chesapeake & Ohio H-8 Allegheny that has no corporate heritage connection whatsoever with today's Norfolk Southern?
Let's at least keep our tippy toes at least grounded here. I think your post must mean you're floating somewhere about halfway between Earth and the Moon... ;)
Well Leo I am hardly floating between the earth and moon. I am sure if I told you two years ago Norfolk southern would spend millions painting locomotives into every heritage railroad they ever acquired you would tell me the same thing. I think you would also be telling me I was crazy if I said the UP wants to restore a Big boy.
The Union pacific steam program is 100% public relations. They run it for no other reason other than the publicity and the media coverage. The Norfolk southern heritage paintings was also 100% publicity and for media coverage. If you are going to tell me that railroads don't spend millions every year trying to get the most publicity for their railroad then I don't know what to tell you.
I think we have well established that Union pacific is indeed trying to acquire and restore a Big boy locomotive. Do you really believe they are just doing it to have some fun? Or are they doing it because having the Worlds largest operating steam locomotive is a public relations wet dream come true. The media attention will be massive with news outlets from every town coming to do a story on it.
I would definitely say Norfolk Southern is leaning towards getting some sort of steam program in operation again since it ran some steam excursions this year. They also pull the 611 back and forth once a year to keep everything from seizing up.
Why did I mention the Allegheny? Because it is the only locomotive that would not only get as much media attention at the Big boy but would likely eclipse it. It is also one of the few locomotives that was steamed to it's final resting spot. The Allegheny ran under it's own steam to the Henry ford museum where it sits today.
Leo_Ames Spoken in fun or being inspired by someone else's good idea is one thing, but a contest of one upmanship with multi-million dollar steam programs among Class 1 Railroads is pure fiction and doesn't exist and never will. If Norfolk Southern ever returns the J or the A to steam for a 21st century steam program, it's not going to be because of some desire to match or surpass the Union Pacific's steam program.
Spoken in fun or being inspired by someone else's good idea is one thing, but a contest of one upmanship with multi-million dollar steam programs among Class 1 Railroads is pure fiction and doesn't exist and never will.
If Norfolk Southern ever returns the J or the A to steam for a 21st century steam program, it's not going to be because of some desire to match or surpass the Union Pacific's steam program.
I'm sure you're right, but as I said let's just have some fun with this and not take it too seriously. Only the professional railroaders have to take railroading's nuts and bolts seriously. I'd love to see a Big Boy running again but if it never happens, well so what? I'm not going to slash my wrists over it.
I don't know, Leo. Companys have egos, or at least the people running them do, and one can never be sure. Certainly the NS Heritage repaint program had a big impact, probably bigger than even NS thought it would. In my comment under the "Railroad News" column several days ago I posited the board members of UP saying "OK, let's see Norfolk Southern top THIS!" Did it happen? Who knows? It's fun to speculate on, though.
Then I remembered a Steve Lee comment back in the early 90's concerning NS's steam program: "If that wooden-axle coal hauler can keep a steam program going, I'm sure we can!" Spoken in fun, I'm sure.
I was recently thinking about how Norfolk southern had their heritage unveiling this year. The same year UP had their 150 anniversary. There is little doubt that Norfolk Southern stole the publicity this year in just about ever way possible. I think the Union pacific people are a little *** and rightfully so. I think Union pacific is looking for a little payback and having the Big boy in operation is a good way to have the whole World talking. If this restoration happens (and I think it will) I wouldn't be surprised if the NS brings the big guns out. Maybe the return of the 1218 or possibly a Allegheny.
2013 will be a historic year for the Big boys. One big boy turning wheels in California and another in Texas when the Dallas railway museum moves.
Looking at the stories under "Railroad News", and the various postings, this thing seems to be taking on a life of it's own. If the Golden Spike sesquicentennial in 2019 is the target date they've got plenty of time to make it happen. If it doesn't happen there's going to be a lot of disappointed people. Not disappointed enough to march on Omaha with torches and pitchforks, but disappointed just the same.
But if I was UP I'd think twice about disappointing Lady Firestorm. I shudder at the thought.
Is it possible UP is looking for a Big Boy to restore, but as a non-operating display?? That might make sense, that they'd want to have one on hand for their anniversary, even if they don't plan to operate it.
It was explained to us that there is a paid in house crew of about 6, and several volunteers. Same as in a diesel locomotive shop, not everyone knows every in and out of a locomotive. Those guys work hard and have turned many a wrench in their life.
The folks working on the program are great. I wouldn't mind being a part of that, but I don't think I want to change crafts just to get in there.
csmith9474 I was just in the steam shops for a tour last Friday, and there was no mention or discussion of restoring a Big Boy to operating condition. The 3985 is still in the middle of a 1472 day inspection, and the 844 is taken apart for some maintenance between running seasons. There is only a small crew there and they have to concentrate all their attention on what they already have on their plate. The roundhouse and shop building is already full so it would be tough to even find room for another large steam locomotive. I suppose they could move the 5511 or 838 outdoors and fit just the locomotive itself in the roundhouse. What it boils down to is that the steam shops already have their hands full.
I was just in the steam shops for a tour last Friday, and there was no mention or discussion of restoring a Big Boy to operating condition. The 3985 is still in the middle of a 1472 day inspection, and the 844 is taken apart for some maintenance between running seasons. There is only a small crew there and they have to concentrate all their attention on what they already have on their plate. The roundhouse and shop building is already full so it would be tough to even find room for another large steam locomotive. I suppose they could move the 5511 or 838 outdoors and fit just the locomotive itself in the roundhouse.
What it boils down to is that the steam shops already have their hands full.
From what I have gathered the majority of the locomotive work is now handled by a third party contractor based in Cheyenne. I know many of the people on the steam crew go to other jobs when the season is over. Even Steve lee, when he was running the show told me in the off season he goes back to a engineer in the yard switching cars.
I was talking to someone on the steam crew not too long and he didn't even know the basics of how a injector works. Half of those guys look like they haven't turned a wrench in their life.
It makes more sense that a third party would be involved. As far as the 5511 goes, there are no plans currently for the UP to restore and operate it (too slow for mainline service). They do have an Espee bay window caboose sitting there doing nothing, so that would be easy enough. I suppose we will have to wait and see.
The news continues...As do the talks between the Museum and the UPRR.
The following item was published in the TRAINS NewsWire on Dec 10,2012:
oltmannd CSSHEGEWISCH...but clearance restrictions are absolute. Well, to one of the two parties involved, anyway.
CSSHEGEWISCH...but clearance restrictions are absolute.
Well, to one of the two parties involved, anyway.
You heard about the Army Sergeant letting air out of the truck tires to ooch under a low bridge?
How about just draining a little oil out of the wheel journals . . .
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Actually you would be surprised what can happen if you just ask for it. I was taking photos of the cab of the 844 shortly before it left Denver and the crew asked me if I wanted to ride with them. I said sure, and before you know It I was riding in the cab of the 844 going down the mainline.
Thomas 9011 I don't think clearance will be a problem at all. Have you seen those windmill trains? One blade takes up a car and a half of the longest flat cars you can get. That blade it totally straight. I know if you put one of those blades at the front of the Big boy and see which one is the longest the blade would probably go way past the tender. But in a technical sense, since the boiler is straight the blade just needs to be as long as the boiler which it is probably twice as long. No matter what happens I think we are overdue to get another articulated locomotive in action. I don't think a Big boy has run in over 50 years now. A million dollars isn't that much money anymore. Railroads like the UP buy new locomotives by the hundreds for over 3 million a pop. I doubt if they would even raise a eyebrow if you put the 3 million towards the Big boy instead of a single new locomotive. I also think they could make a good profit just from sales from tickets. There is a lot of millionaires out there who are rail fans. How much do you think they would pay for a cab ride over Donner pass? How about engineer for a hour? I would bet even at $10,000 a pop you could get lines of people for engineer for a hour on some isolated stretch of track all year round. I don't make good money but if that ever became available I would work two full time jobs to get that money.
I don't think clearance will be a problem at all. Have you seen those windmill trains? One blade takes up a car and a half of the longest flat cars you can get. That blade it totally straight. I know if you put one of those blades at the front of the Big boy and see which one is the longest the blade would probably go way past the tender. But in a technical sense, since the boiler is straight the blade just needs to be as long as the boiler which it is probably twice as long.
No matter what happens I think we are overdue to get another articulated locomotive in action. I don't think a Big boy has run in over 50 years now. A million dollars isn't that much money anymore. Railroads like the UP buy new locomotives by the hundreds for over 3 million a pop. I doubt if they would even raise a eyebrow if you put the 3 million towards the Big boy instead of a single new locomotive.
I also think they could make a good profit just from sales from tickets. There is a lot of millionaires out there who are rail fans. How much do you think they would pay for a cab ride over Donner pass? How about engineer for a hour? I would bet even at $10,000 a pop you could get lines of people for engineer for a hour on some isolated stretch of track all year round. I don't make good money but if that ever became available I would work two full time jobs to get that money.
IINM, many of the wind turbine parts movements have to go over special routing due to clearance issues.
As far as money goes, UP certainly has enough capital available to restore every one of the retired Steam Locomotives (and Gas Turbines) if they so chose but given that they are in the business of freight transportation rather than entertainment the concept of the UP marketing department offering 10 grand cab rides is a little far fetched (well, maybe if Richard Branson buys them out).
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
Something to remember: weight restrictions can be fudged, speed restrictions can be fudged, but clearance restrictions are absolute.
2008 is the last year I can recall when both 844 and 3985 were both operated. Although I'd love to see a Big Boy back in operation, I have doubts that an addition to the steam program would result in an increase in steam trips. Oh, well, we can't have everything!
When SP 4449 made a Midwest trip a few years ago, the engine had to be routed differently than its consist due to clearance issues around Chicago. I wonder how many places exist in the UP system where a Big Boy just couldn't go?
Lady Firestorm's excited about this. She can't wait to stand to a live 4000 and say "Hey Big Boy, new in town?"
At any rate, "if and when", I wouldn't expect a Big Boy to travel very far from its original stomping grounds. It MAY come east as far as Nebraska, it MIGHT go into Utah, but clearances everywhere else might be problematic, unless someone really does their homework. Hey, I'll go west to see it!
ANYTHING can be restored to operation - it only takes three things in massive quantities - Will, Skill & Money!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Firelock76 It'd be fantastic if it happens, but I'll keep a "wait and see" attitude for now. If it DOES happen, they should name the resurrected "Big Boy" the "Steve Lee." He MADE the UP steam program what it is today.
It'd be fantastic if it happens, but I'll keep a "wait and see" attitude for now.
If it DOES happen, they should name the resurrected "Big Boy" the "Steve Lee." He MADE the UP steam program what it is today.
I am reminded of a pin that Steve Lee wore at times: It simply was a series of letters:
M.O.W.S. underneath the letters was written Manager of Weird [ Stuff} ] .
I have left the true "S" meaning to the reader/s' imagination; in deference to younger readers.The adults will understand, and realize that a statement on a pin that many years old would be prophetic. Indeed, If a 4000 class came back to life and was named after Steve Lee, a guy who fancied himself as a manager of weird stuff. Indeed!
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