Having ridden both, they each shine in different areas. D&S has the better (IMO) rocky scenery and is more impressive with up to 4 through trains each way each day.
C&TS still goes through great scenery. It also is more remote which plays up the romance of the rails aspect. They also do a better job of appearing historic. (the radios were hidden better and it was so cool listening to the two engineers coordinate train handling between road and helper using whistle signals. They could advertise their strengths (remoteness, authentic train handling, historic, less commercial) that would play better to the non-railfans they seek.
toad hollow I've ridden both three times and each is unique , but to expand ridership you need a major hotel/motel at Chama along with other attractions [golf course for example] and Antonita is just the middle of nothing . Why not go all the way into Alamosa were at least there are restaurants and hotels. The D&RG did.
I've ridden both three times and each is unique , but to expand ridership you need a major hotel/motel at Chama along with other attractions [golf course for example] and Antonita is just the middle of nothing . Why not go all the way into Alamosa were at least there are restaurants and hotels. The D&RG did.
The Rio Grande Scenic has a connecting rail service on their standard gauge line between Alamosa and Antonito. (Of course the narrow gauge 3 rail was pulled long ago.)
https://www.riograndescenicrailroad.com/cumbres-connection.html
theaterlon The railroad companies historically were responsible for many tourist attractions to draw ridership, and if there had been a market for that sort of venue in those days, you would be revering and fighting to preserve them today.
The railroad companies historically were responsible for many tourist attractions to draw ridership, and if there had been a market for that sort of venue in those days, you would be revering and fighting to preserve them today.
That is true, but those railroads were not attractions in and of themselves like the C&TS is. They were just transportation. And they were not historical artifacts with a mission to be preserved. So there was no side show that could degrade them the way a sideshow might degrade the historical authenticity of the C&TS with its mission to preserve its history.
I have ridden both the Durango and Silverton train and the Cumbres and Toltec and the contrast in ridership and popularity is pretty stark. I believe that the reason is that the Silverton line has a well developed town at each end of the run and the C&T simply does not. I think that instead of risking capital on an ampitheater in the midst of nowhere it would be much more effective to amp up the attractiveness of Chama and Antonito and/or the middle of the line meeting point. Unique shops, eateries, hotels, resorts, all that kind of stuff would probably be a better investment. Some cornyness has to be accepted to create a mass market and ensure survival of the authentic railroad experience but the cornyness can, with some careful planning, be kept off the train itself.
"Meaningful destination for the short trip?"
What they need is something like the short trip on the V&T. Run to the end point, get the loco to the other end of the train and start back. The object is to ride the railroad and enjoy the view from the cars. Or do they expect people to ride to Cumbres, then wait around until the train from Antonito finally gets there? In the latter case, they need a whole amusement park, not just an amphitheater.
Simplest way? Drop a couple of coaches after the climb up from Chama and have the helper take them back to the bottom of the hill while the road loco proceeds downgrade to Antonito.
Chuck
Well apparently they do want to offer that shorter trip for people who don't want to spend so much time. However, they also seem to feel that they need an amphitheater in order to turn Cumbers into a meaninful destination for the short trip. If I were taking the short trip, I would not want to spend much time at the turnaround point.
I've ridden both the Cumbers & Toltec and the Durango & Silverton.
The biggest weakness of the Cumbres & Toltec is that there is very little tourist infrastructure in Chama. If Chama had McDonald's and Denny's (restaurants), plus a 100 room hotel within walking distance of the train station they'd have more visitors.
The Cumbres & Toltec could offer a trip from Chama to Cumbers; this would be better for people who don't want an all day trip.
This issue of whether C&TS should be preserved alone as an historical artifact, or be supplemented with modern entertainment attractions seems to be the question of the moment with C&TS. I have noticed that even when people say they fully intend to preserve historical fabric and context, they don’t do it because they don’t understand what it is.
I believe the C&TS would prosper with a better marketing approach that would speak to people who are not railfans. Their marketing needs empathy with the prospective customer. Instead, they seem to be convinced that the operation needs more attractions besides the railroad. And with the new management, that belief has been redoubled.
Having taken the C&TTRR the best thing that could happen is leave well enough alone. The charm of the trip was that it did not feel like a "tourist operation" but just a great ride over a beautiful landscape. I for one do NOT want another D&SRR where you feel like your at Disneyland!
Building an entertainment venue at one of the most remote locations in the country -- Cumbres Pass -- strikes me as near madness. The pass is only reachable by the railroad or backwoods road. It is so far from anywhere that they have this sign in the souvenir ship:
Upgrading the depot area at Chama to pry more dollars from each attendee is fine, as is promotion in the nearby metropolitan areas, such as Denver and Albuquerque.
To add some context, here are old pictures of the Cumbres area. I presume if they wanted to build an amphitheater they would start with a natural amphitheater landform.
Windy Point is to the west of the station:
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/47222/rec/37
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/81361/rec/27
Here is the area at the east end of Cumbres siding:
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/51745/rec/79
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/70342/rec/2
I have heard a lot about the shaky financial condition of the C&TS. So who pays for a million-dollar amphitheater? The basic C&TS problem is that its remoteness fails to attract enough business. I find it really hard to believe that an amphitheater is the solution to the problem.
The supporters of C&TS have a mantra that the railroad must market to non-railfans because railfans are only a tiny portion of the customer base. And yet, all of their marketing and advertising seems to be speaking exclusively to railfans. The company views the world through the railfan lens.
I think they could get all the train riders they could possibly handle out of Denver if they just spoke to non-railfans and explained the C&TS experience to them. But you have to reach out to them with the proper message. Instead, C&TS seems to believe that the only way to attract more people is to add supplementary attractions to their site.
I have been to Cumbres Pass. "Approximate heart of nowhere," is an apt description. Also, you can't get there by road without passing through Chama (which strikes me as a much more sensible place to put an amphitheater.) The road to the east of Cumbres is well separated from the railroad, so not very attractive to railfans pacing trains.
It will be interesting to find out how this works out. Hokey theatrics (like fake train robberies) have kept me off other tourist routes. Endless guide chatter is also unwanted. Why can't these geniuses just let me enjoy the train ride?
Chuck.
This is a very interesting development, but I am wondering just what this amphitheater will consist of, and why people would be attracted to it. Are there really that many train ride customers who feel they need a wider variety of entertainment beyond the train ride?
I have never been to Cumbres Pass, but if it is a desolate and undeveloped place, this proposed entertainment complex would seem to really step on the magic of the C&TS RR.
An item in the Trains News Wire yesterday states that the new operators will create facilities “so interesting and exciting that they attract new and repeat ridership.” Those facilities must also “reflect and enhance the historical architecture and operation of the C&TS Railroad.”.
They include recreating the formerly larger Chama roundhouse with an original looking facade. It will be good for the engines to have a home.
I guess in order to create something "interesting and exciting" they will also build an entertainment venue including an amphitheater at Cumbres Pass. I fail to see how this will also reflect and enhance the historical operation of the C&TS. The historical significance of the line is the summit crossing of the pass. It interprets the climb up 4% grade to the culmination at the isolated summit. How can the modern tourist appreciate this when they are greeted at the top by a disney-esque entertainment complex?
Entertainment venues at a summit are not unique. Just 30 miles from the Antinito terminal you can board the Rio Grande & San Luis tourist train for a ride to Veta Pass and it's amphitheater. It sounds like a new fad, like dinner trains, that are around for a while until the novelty wares off. But while the dinner train just moves to a new operation, the amphitheater will still be there. Will the operator put up a bond to ensure removal of the amphitheater and to complete surface restoration when it is done?
Thinking of the old classic photos of Rio Grande steamers coming around Windy Point or Tanglefoot curve, how would they look with an amphitheater in the picture. I believe an entertainment venue at Cumbres Pass does not fit the mission of the C&TS.
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