At Sumpter Valley Railroad, svry.com, anyone, any age can join, and families are encouraged to bring everyone to our campsite to stay for the amount of time they would like to volunteer. Our President and Vice-President are both under 25, at present, and we have many other young people.
Sadly, our main volunteer work force is primarily 45 and older. The youngest engineers will be 50 this year, with people working their way up, mostly older. Many volunteers give up on working into positions that take a long time to learn, but we give volunteers lots of time to ride the train, and my favorite time was talking some of our most loyal volunteers through light engine moves in the yard as they tried out being engineer (with me right there), sort of as a reward for sticking around when others went home, and to burn up some bad fuel.
Our initial training weekend will be the first weekend in May, and will include steam engine training. This is only for volunteers that plan to work during the season this year. Volunteers must be members, but can join the day training starts.
Two experiences I have had may bear on this problem:
First, I drove a couple of hundred miles one Saturday to take in what a scenic railroad had to offer. This place runs a normally runs an unusual steamer on the weekends and a diesel-electric switcher during the week. Upon arrival, I was dismayed to discover that Thomas the Tank Engine was in town, and so the place was overrun with the three to ten year old set. In addition, due to Thomas all of the excursions running were to be diesel powered that weekend.
At first, I was highly put out that I had not checked the web site and realized what Thomas would attract. Upon reflection I realized I was taking the wrong attitude. As teenagers, those kids will totally forget that experience, but I think there just may be a few of them who return there when they are in their 20's or 30's to see what it is about in more detail. Somewhere in that group I think that railroad will find the people who will keep it running into the future.
Second, one summer morning I went to the town in which Union Pacific's steamer, UP 844, had overnighted. Mostly, of course, I was watching them prepare to depart, but I also noticed the crowd. Despite being a town on the Overland Route, I doubt that very many of them had ever seen one of the large steamers up close and personal before. I would hope that a few of them choose to learn more about these machines and realize the various museums are one way of doing it.
Neither of those observations is a very direct answer to your question, and I don't have one that is more to the point. However I think that the various museums need to find ways to expand the natural curiosity people have regarding this equipment by trying to maximize the number of people who see it.
Well, we seem to agree that it is important if not essential to interest children while they are still very young. Perhaps we can’t expect very much from them in the growing up years, but the payoff, if there is any, will be later when they are settled down a bit as adults.
It is certainly gratifying to see several very young people here who are already involved. But are these people exceptions? Will we have a steadily declining population of interest? Will interest most often end with what is remembered by the living? Most specifically, will a sufficient interest in operational steam continue?
Clearly the preserved railways and museums can’t (and don’t now) endure on the help, interest and contributions of railfans alone. It is essential to keep the subject alive and of some interest to the general population. Without them, we can’t continue. In fact, we probably need to attract them to return again and again.
How can museums and historic railways affectively address these things?
Glen
Glen,
Maybe I should refine my thoughts - because I have been thinking on my feet to an extent whilst posting. Fine, get kids interested at a young age but don't then lets gnash our teeth and beat our brows when these kids loose interest when they reach an age of independence.
Make the "junior" experience inclusive and accepting then hopefully upon gaining a little more experience and appreciation of life (as per my previous post) they may return to the fold.
We've been away for the Easter break staying with my parents and I took some time to catch up with friends at the local model railroad club. They've recently been re-joined by a guy that I knew in my youth, who'd gone away, had kids, established his own business then returned to the club. That, I think, is the ideal. He'd enjoyed his younger involvement and can now afford (in both time and money terms) to become an active member of the club again. Perhaps he'll bring his own kids to club nights.
The National Railway Museum at York does have a short running line but it is very much constricted by it's location. The round trip is only about 1500 feet. As the museum is very much interactive I don't think this detracts from the overall experience. I'd say the same about the (in my view) excellent B&O museum in Baltimore.
As for your experiences with Trains forums...there is no intercontinental comparison. In our small country there are probably ten monthly publications, available at most news stands dedicated to various aspects of railways either historical or contemporary, another four (at least) modelling magazines and then Trains, Classic Trains, European Railways etc...the list here is enormous.
Trains, meanwhile, has almost an entire continent to cover almost on it's own. There is Railfan and Railroad, and Diesels, and a few subscriber only magazines but Trains has to try to be all things to all men. Does the criticism of steam outweigh the criticism of diesel?
Simon,
I think your observation about the young, male of our species is accurate, but isn't it essential to instill the interest at least from a very young age? It may be too late to interest people if they are already adults.
Have I visited the museum a York? Yes, twice. It is very impressive even though, at least when I was there. nothing operated.
Certainly, one operating steam locomotive is worth many static ones. Many of our museums here have occasionally operating engines and they are always a significant draw (provided anyone knows about it).
I think you from the UK have one more advantage. At least over here, no one seems interested in anything older than their own childhood memories. (I don't understand that myself, but it seems prevalent among railfans as well as others). I see constant complaints on the internet chat groups that TRAINS Magazine devotes too much coverage to steam in recent issues. Assuming this attatude also applies in the UK, steam is a more recent memory there; here only really old people like me can remember it in regular service.
We do have a couple of organizations over here, but I believe they could do much more. For instance, no statistics seem to be gathered about the market. Perhaps more collaboration with the Railway Heritage Committee should be initiated.
GBrewer - something that perhaps I should have added to my initial post, and to clarify the position regarding "centrally organised" preservation in the UK, is the role of the RHC:-
http://www.railwayheritage.org.uk/
Their role is very succintly explained at the head of the home page.
There is a National Collection here - as there is in most Western European countries - comprising of rail related artifacts from locomotives to documents considered culturally and historically significant. It's home base is the National Railway Museum in York (which I hope you've visited - it's only 60 miles from Barrow Hill).
The existence of this body does not preclude societies or individuals from owning equipment or documentation: it simply designates what it considers appropriate and ensures it's future.
To return to the point: viz Younger People. I wrote from my own perspective which presumably must be a global one. As a child I loved anything big and mechanical. When I got to late teens beer and girls supplanted that love but it must have remained latent because now (I'll be 40 in November) I am an active rail preservationist with the blisters to prove it and, as previously mentioned, the proud co-owner (with my partner) a truly ancient property. My experience informs my suggestion that the ideal recruit is slightly older than generally perceived.
I'd also throw in a wild card here - Preservation - v - Restoration. Preservation makes the caboose in our local park look clean and tidy. Restoration makes the caboose run behind a prototypical train on our local tourist line. Restoration is dynamic. Migh'nt that be a greater attraction than a civic monument?
I appreciate that speaking from the UK I speak from a position of some advantage. Within 30 miles of my home (Bradford, in the industrialised North of England) there are at least nine established preservation sites running trains on a regular basis. This degree of concentration is'nt available in North America.
The efforts of many American communities to preserve an element of their rail-related past in the form of a plinthed piece of rolling stock in a public place is laudable but if that form remains inanimate surely any interest will degenerate into complacency.
LNER4472, Simon Reed
"I'm not Tulyar15, but I'm a member of the Deltic Preservation Society. which owns and is restoring his "namesake" Deltic. Close enough?"
Certainly. I have actually been to Barrow Hill and had a tour inside one of the Deltics there. We might have crossed paths.
I wasn't trying to make a point that the UK government is offering more money for railway preservation. I was simply inquiring as to the facts, since someone else suggested this possibility to me. I actually doubted that it was true.
I agree with Simon that
"There is far less of a national appreciation of heritage in North America than Europe. I'd dare to suggest that this is partially because the American ethos looks to the future whilst the European is more mindful of the past.
That arguement, however, is defied by the basic truth that here the younger generations disregard that which has gone before as obsolete and irrelevant."
Yes, while your first thought rings true, the second also applies here as well.
And who do we target? I really don't know. Will our passions outlive us by much or not?
By-the-way, I live in a house built in 1892 -- not old at all in Europe, but very old indeed here in Denver.
johnmallory, et all:
Pardon me for straying off topic a hare. The modeling side of the hobby has to campaign harder too to get the younger generation interested.
I was at the "World's Greatest Hobby" show here in KC Saturday, and I was really impressed at the turnout, especially when the doors opened at 10:00am! Every aisle was filling up. Athearn, Kato, Kalmbach, and Woodland Scenics were just some of the manufacturers there as well as area hobby shops and local model RR clubs. There was even an amusement park type train to give children rides.
What really impressed me was seeing Woodland Scenics giving demonstrations on how to do basic scenery. Honestly, they drew the largest crowds.
I rarely go to model train shows anymore, because past shows mostly resembled flea markets, and that just turned me off. There was nothing as those shows to get new people interested in the hobby. I even hesitated at first going to the WGH show, but I am glad I went.
The WGH show definately lived up to its concept of introducing the younger generation to the hobby.
Take care,
Russell
Not an easy question.
Here in the UK history and heritage is immediately obvious. I grew up half a mile from the substantial remains of Furness Abbey, which was built from around 1127:-
http://www.visitcumbria.com/sl/furnabb.htm
Our present home was partially built in 1653, and extended in 1854.
Despite these links to the past which are all around our country very few kids seem to wish to partake in historical activities, whether it be associated with our built heritage, our natural history or industrial heritage - I'd say Rail Preservation falls within the latter category.
There is far less of a national appreciation of heritage in North America than Europe. I'd dare to suggest that this is partially because the American ethos looks to the future whilst the European is more mindful of the past.
That arguement, however, is defied by the basic truth that here the younger generations disregard that which has gone before as obsolete and irrelevant.
Probably the answer - with a few gilded exceptions - is that we forget youth altogether. Allow the individual to learn and to grow in personal experience and appreciation. Let the peer group acceptance phase run it's course.
Then, perhaps, we should see a young adult becoming aware of their surroundings, and the course of history and heritage that has brought them to where they stand in life.
Who do we target? The High School Student or The Graduate? Conventional wisdom suggests the former. I'd suggest the latter.
I'm not Tulyar15, but I'm a member of the Deltic Preservation Society. which owns and is restoring his "namesake" Deltic. Close enough?
I have no idea where many American railfans got the apparent impression that the British government subsidizes British rail preservation. It does, but I can make the case that the United States governments local, state, and national, 'subsidize" American rail preservation to an equal extent, if not more.
Much of the focus of Americans citing British "subsidy" seems to be on the Heritage Lottery Fund, a holdover from the Millennium celebrations like that big wheel ride in London. In short, there's a state-run lottery, like the state lotteries here, the proceeds of which go to fund varuious history projects in the UK. You have to apply for grants for your project, and you're competing against every castle, battlefield, old house, local square, canal lock, etc. and you have to find your own matching funds, etc.
We have had something like that here--the ISTEA "transportation-effiency" grants, later followed by the TEA-21 grants. Many museums here got money from that program; it was often called "pork-barrel" by many detractors, as there's really no way fixing a steam locomotive or old station really improves transportation efficiency in the big-picture modern world.
The National Railway Museum at York, England? Well, we have Steamtown in Scranton. Apples and oranges, but at least it's a "national" rail museum of a sort eating up national monies. And what about the state-sponsored rail museums in California, Pennsylvania, and North Carolina? Museums housed in local parks, like Travel Town in Los Angeles and Gold Coast in Miami? Or, for that matter, the occasional local grant or cooperation between local or state governments and some American projects?
I will concede mainline access is easier than in the USA. Steamers still have to meet pretty tough standards, established by an agency long before British Rail's denationalization. In part, this stems from a mentality--infused by a half-century of nationalized heavy industry--that the railways are a public utility and not a private corporation.
In short, what government support British (and for that matter German, Japanese, French, Canadian, etc.) rail preservation gets is a pittiance compared to the grand picture of rail preservation in that country, and as such CANNOT be used to readily dismiss the qualitative and quantitative differences between the "preservation scenes" in the USA and Britain/elsewhere. The differences run much deeper: basic geography and population distribution, a culture dependent upon local transit as opposed to private autos and the open road, basic cultural historical awareness, etc.
another thought I had about getting younger people involved is to show younger people volunteering in promotional materials. Often rail museums will have a section on how to get involved with no pictures. The average reader will assume that this is an invitation to males in the 40 - 60 age group, despite anything that is said. So it might be a better idea for museums to have pictures of their volunteers at work, and plenty of those in the younger age range together with females also (both groups don't tend to get involved). How about some profiles also? It might just reinforce the message that railways are for everyone to enjoy. There are of course many other factors that need to be dealt with but it might help with one.
In the UK there is no specific funding I can think of for rail museums. However very often heritage railways exist to a large extent becuase local government has come on board and backed the idea - helping with planning, funding etc. It has been common for grants for specific projects to be given to railways. Another useful source of funding is the National Lottery.
Does the government in the UK help out in any way with financing of railway museums, operating heritage railways or in making main line access available for steam specials?
Thanks,
At the Travel Town museum, we also used the court ordered community service volunteers, though much less than in the past. We are also fortunate, in that many of the local High Schools require the kids to put in a certain amount of community service hours each semester to graduate.
We try and coordinate this with school so we have large turnouts on days we are doing trackwork or other projects that require lots of labor, but we also tend to get a steady supply of kids we can put to work on all sorts of small jobs. A lot of this kind of labor tends to disappear after than get their hours in, but a small percentage discover they like it and keep coming.
We've also had a fair amount of luck over the last couple of years attracting Boy Scouts doing their Eagle Projects. And that has the advantage of bringing the kids as well as their parents. Again, a few of those discover that even driving spikes can be fun.
Greg
Kids (and people in general) want to "DO" something, to volunteer to clean and paint a piece of RR equipment, and then not be allowed to ride on, or further participate with it is a deal breaker.
Problem #2= "Cliques" by the time the rivit counters and elites pass on, we have found other interests......
Phoebe Vet wrote: Younger people don't like to LOOK, they like to DO.Museums need to put a real steamer on display, and nearby a replica that young people can climb around on and explore. They need cutaways so people can see how they worked, and perhaps a simulator so they can "experience" what it was like riding the engine. Then outside they should be able to RIDE one.
Younger people don't like to LOOK, they like to DO.
Museums need to put a real steamer on display, and nearby a replica that young people can climb around on and explore. They need cutaways so people can see how they worked, and perhaps a simulator so they can "experience" what it was like riding the engine. Then outside they should be able to RIDE one.
Exactly like the LSRM.
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
I'm responding to all 6 of the messages visible at present concerning younger people in railfanning. I agree with all that's been said and would add only three points and make one suggestion. First, parental and familial interest (or that of friends) is very important in developing interests in younger people. I'm active in the Long Island Sunrise Trail Chapter of NRHS and wrote an article for the chapter newsletter a few years ago indicating why I love trains. The thesis of the article is that in my childhood, railroads were almost completely connected with visiting my grandmother. I lived in Brooklyn (1935-1957), and my mother, father, and I, an only child, took 5 rail conveyances to visit my grandmother in suburban Philadelphia about 4 times a year: the BRT elevated train in front of my house, the new IND subway to Penn Station, one of the PRR "Clockers" to Broad Street Station, Philadelphia; the Market-Frankford Subway-Elevated to the 69th St. Terminal; and the Red Arrow (now SEPTA) Sharon Hill trolley. My grandmother's house was 300 feet from the "Royal Blue Line" of the B&O, and that trolley line ran its last quarter mile in back of the house, near where it ducked under the B&O. Thus railroading of several types was in a Pavlovian way connected with my grandmother, whom I loved dearly and found endlessly fascinating. My parents always acted excited about the trips, we always dressed up to travel, and my parents regularly told me about the places we were passing. Rail travel itself was thus a special part of our life together.
The second point is that modern trains are not as inherently interesting as they were in the 30s, 40s, and 50s. Streamlining was creating a new image for passenger trains; old open-windowed P-70 coaches gave way to their rejuvenated selves with airconditioning and "art moderne" design; passenger trains seemed bigger seen from track-level platforms than from platforms at car-floor level; steam, obviously threatened with extinction, made every appearance a perhaps-final experience; freight trains were composed of cars of many types from many--often far-away--railroads; and trains were exciting to see coming, of course, and going with their observation cars--sporting imposing names--and cabooses.
The third point is that trains no longer play as important a part in our lives as they once did. A smaller percentage of Americans now work for railroads; the average American knows no railroader personally. Most people I know, besides my railfan friends, are completely unaware that rail historical societies, many magazines, dozens of books a year, and hundreds of rail museums and tourist railroads exist.
I fear that we are not going to see large numbers of children, teens, and young adults volunteering at tourist railroads and joining fan and T & H societies. Our missionary work will have to be done among people whose children have grown and who are facing or are already in retirement. When I was actively a father of 3 children, with a career of my own and a wife with a career, I'd have had no time to belong to 3 rail history groups or to read and respond to this forum.
I was a volunteer at a museum for many years that has static displays as well as an operating railroad with a couple of cabooses pulled by a former Army Baldwin switcher. As an NPO we would get "volunteers" via court ordered community service. Some of the younger kids would stay around after they completed their legal obligations and turned out to be decent "kids". Most over time would quit coming out due to other activities they were involved, as many teens have a lot going on. I would hope that this experience planted a seed that would eventually lead them back to the museum when they are ready to commit themselves.
Older people look at a static display and remember when they used to run. Young people would rather ride one. I am 61 years old, and Only saw one or two of the very last steam engines in actual service when I was very young. Most people today have only seen them in museums. Few people today have even seen an "F" or "E" unit except in the movies.
A Railroad theme park would draw more visitors than a museum. And even the museums need more "hands on". Perhaps a period dressed and greasy appearing engineer explaining the workings of the exhibit.
My grandchildren couldn't care less how prototypical my layout is. They want to run the trains.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
coborn35, you enlight me! it's great to hear this interest you have. we need to spread this. As a young person, any ideas on how to bring other people your age "into the fold"?
I had a discussion once (well, actually, several times) with my non-railroad freinds about what would you do in a nuclear or any other kind of collapse of government or yatta..yatta..yatta. you get the idea , hopefully. I always said i'd go to the country, to get a horse a cow several chickens some feed, a carriage or two of some kind and as much seed as I could. As a child i would have gone instinctly to my grandfather's place in Sugar Grove, IL. He had been considered a junk collecter mos of his life, but I knew he had all the tools needed to build a simple house, plow a basic field (including all the harness to tie the animals, ect. ect. ect. would I have known exaxctly (spell-check) what to do with it all? Maybe in principle, but not in practice. But it was ALWAYS nice to know those manual tools, and the knowledge I gained to understand there purposewould get me through any disaster has always made me feel secure. Most people I asked the same thing would go to the city with lots of guns and try to rob everyone. different perspectives.
I'm not a farmer by any means. Grew up in Aurora, working lower middle class. but my Grandparents were country folks. I like, but have little understanding of, modern tech. But I have every respect of those that did so much more than we can imagine with so much less. so we don't have to shovel coal into a firebox no more, should we forget our ancestors did it? For generations without (much) complaint? It was a way of life for the times. they didn't even think of something better. do you know what technology your children will be privileged to?
Oh my God, what a I'm on, and I apologize! we need you, and your youthful enthusism. I don't want to be the "get off my grass" guy (hehehe, Yes , i watch Craig Ferguson, too. My last name IS SCOTT, you know!). We are losing our past. I'm not someone who is saying we should all ride horses and forget cars, ect. ect. ect....but knowing what your'e ancestor went through, in hopes of what the future held fo ryou, is THE MOST IMPORTANT view, IMMHOP... you know what, forget the whole new language.. THE MOST IMPORTANT VIEW of our ancesters, In my most humblist of opinions! Join a society, just one. one that suits you're veiws or opinions or, most importantly, youre history and memories. Those cornfields of Sugar Grove and Amboy of my Grandparents are already mass produced houses. and, as I said, I'm only 35!. YOU'RE HISTORY IS YOU'RE FUTURE!
I'm sorry if I seem to be lecturing you, I apologize. I don't mean to be preachin' to the choir. That's probably another reason we have such low application rates! I'm trying to say, please.. please spread the word on how important history..be it railroad..or otherwise.. is SO IMPORTANT, and not to be ignored. PLEASE!
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
dmcclendon wrote: The sad part this is happening all across the country. I have seen local service clubs (Lions, Jaycee's,etc) suffering from the same issues as railroads. It seems our young people have the attitude of "what's in it for me". Even in our churches we have the same attitudes. I belong to a local Tourist shortline and we try very hard to recruit younger volunteers. What I found that works is to make sure you acknowledge them. What I mean by that is "talk" to them instead of down to them. Hopefully others will get on here and express some good ideas. I agree we need to get more "young blood" involved.
The sad part this is happening all across the country. I have seen local service clubs (Lions, Jaycee's,etc) suffering from the same issues as railroads. It seems our young people have the attitude of "what's in it for me". Even in our churches we have the same attitudes. I belong to a local Tourist shortline and we try very hard to recruit younger volunteers. What I found that works is to make sure you acknowledge them. What I mean by that is "talk" to them instead of down to them. Hopefully others will get on here and express some good ideas. I agree we need to get more "young blood" involved.
I am 16, play football and baseball, and plan to play those in college. I volunteer and am employed at the North Shore Scenic Railroad and Lake Superior Railroad Museum in Duluth,MN. I have a co-worker/volunteer that is 16, and one thatis now 19. The one that is 16 has been there 9 years, I have been there 5, and the one that is 19 has been there 6-7 years. I am by no means tootin my own horn, but we know the operation backwards and forwards and are respected by most of the older members. If the volunteers dont talk to us and treat us like kids, thats fine, we wont respect them.
For the most part the volunteers appreciate us and engage in frequent conversations.
It is very itneresting that all 3 of us really like trains, but are not like some of the kids out there that are trains 24/7, not very friendly towards other kids, and play video games all day. Its not that healthy and sadly, thats what alot young railfans are it seems like.
The 19 year old's father works for the CN, and he is soon going to be emplyed by either BNSF, or Amtrak.
The 16 year old is a Boy Scout, loves trucks, walking train encyclopedia, has alot of friends etc.
I play varsity football and baseball on State Paticipating teams, am fairly "popular", stay outside playing games until I get called in for supper etc, and really like trains.
Trains have to be a naturally aquired taste, methinks.
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