Form B question

[kenneo]

nhs792 -- a Form B with a limit of 4PM holds until 5PM. Flags left by a 4man set for a Form B cause the restriction to remain in effect. A 4man can take the railroad home in his pocket and absolutely close the railroad down if he had a valid Form B in effect and the flags out. I have seen this happen several times. Form B's are there to prevent trains from running over track crews, and such, they absolutely inviolate.

Ed --- Glad to see all is working better. Music sounds so much better when all of the instruments play from the same sheet of music. Railroads run better for the same reason - but then we both know that!

Problem here now is not staying Frosty, we have plenty of that at the moment. But I'm sure you could use some of it, but Uncle Pete won't be able to get it to you fast enough to do you any good!!

Stay Frosty - me? I'll try to stay warm, thank you.

[Anonymous]

There is still something missing here. There has to be more to the story of the second incident.

If the form B was in effect until 1600 and the incident occurred at 1615, then the form B was not in effect.
If the foreman had removed the red flags then there were no flags displayed.

Why does everybody think the dispatcher did something wrong?
There was no form B in effect at the time and there was no red flag displayed for her to tell the crew to go past. If everything that Ed has said has happened exactly that way then she owns the railroad again. She can line signals to her hearts content. She can run whatever trains she wants into the bridge area because the form B has expired. Its over, its finished. The foreman doesn't "give it back". If he wants to retain it he leaves the boards out and its handled as an undocumented red flags or he has to get track and time.

There is something else going on with the second incident. From what I've read it wasn't a form B incident. Basically at 1615 there wasn't a form B in effect to violate. There have been little snippets of stuff about track and time but no details. That T&T may be the problem.

Smith

[edblysard]

Well,
So far, every PTRA crew now knows more about form B than they ever though they could.
Both crews back in service, and the UP mow foreman answers his radio in a flash.
We printed up a from, simular to the track and time forms, and when we get permission from the foreman, we write down exactly what he says, and repeat it back word for word.
He is happy, our crews are happy, but I have no idea where the dispatcher is, I havent her her on the horn again.
Flags are where thay are supposed to be, and we all are playing on the same page.
I bet the track gang feels alot better about being out on that bridge now.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[kenneo]

Ed ....... How has this turned out???

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeffhergert

When a Form B is in effect in CTC territory signals at Control Points aren't always red. Unless there is a track and time beyond a CP where the Form B is the Dispatcher can route traffic into the area. If you get a permissive signal at a CP it doesn't relieve you of getting the MOW Foremans permission to enter his limits.

As I mentioned, I have a time gap against me, here, but in "my day" the dispatcher could not clear (it was required to be physically blocked on the control panel) the last A signal (A=Absolute as in CP - the signal that the DS actually can control) had to stay red. After the 4man authorized the dispatcher to permit the train past the A Block, the DS talked the train past the signal and the train then had to proceed at restricted speed to the red flag where he was then under the 4mans authority. After the rear end cleared the green flag, normal operations commenced.

As evidenced in Ed's post, trains get by signals into restricted trackage when the DS can clear into the restriction. Witness the news stories we see from time to time about MofW crews getting run over by a train.

[jeffhergert]

When a Form B is in effect in CTC territory signals at Control Points aren't always red. Unless there is a track and time beyond a CP where the Form B is the Dispatcher can route traffic into the area. If you get a permissive signal at a CP it doesn't relieve you of getting the MOW Foremans permission to enter his limits.
In the first example when the crew came up to a red signal, the dispr can authorize movement past the signal, it is not authorization into the Form B limit, only to pass the signal.
The second example track and time is mentioned. Track and time is different from a Form B. Track and time is between CPs where a Form B may only cover a portion between the same CPs. If a Form B is in effect, MOW wouldn't need to have track and time unless they needed to occupy trackage outside of the B's limits (to move machinery etc.) If a track and time is in effect, trains can only be moved into the T&T by being issued their own T&T joint with the original T&T holder.
Generally, it seems that MOW only contacts the dispr at the end of Form B time limits only if they aren't finished with their project or they finish early. If they need more time, they usually get some other on-track authority (track warrant, track permit or track and time depending on the territory) and pull their flags down. If they finish early (or for some reason can't work that day) They will ask to have the B voided. I remember one day a MOW gang finished about 3hrs early and asked to have their B voided. The dispr wouldn't void the B so someone had to stay and clear trains thru the limits.
If they do finish early, sometimes they take the flags down and that fact will be mentioned in the oral clearance.

[kenneo]

Ed

You will live to run another day that way (intentional play on words). Now days, it can be a rep of the 4man or oral permission via radio. But the days I was talking about only the engine and caboose had radios. No dispatcher had them and few wayside stations, so one of the laborers did the honors.

Anyway, something to think about, I don't know the name (as in Control Point hereor there), but if the UP would put out the information that would apply between Englewood (that is where you go for the bridge?) and your switch, (Trains Via Eds Switch), all you would get would be thde stuff that applied between your switch and the yard in question. I can remember putting out orders for one branch hauler with "-- Trains Via --" for at least 6 different places so that it got only the orders for its route and the other trains got only the orders for their routes. A dispatcher will understand what I'm talking about, but I fear your baby TM may not.

That UP dispatcher neads to be re-educated. A year sweeping the floor might not be enough. She is the type that kills crews. She can set the rooute up, but has no authority to tell the guys to move.

And your comment about the second crew - too bad so sad. They should have seen it comming and probably need to have some time to study the Rule Book.

I presume that the first crew did not have a copy of the order in their possession? If they did not, that could be their ticket. Hang it on the UP good and proper there. The UP has just gotten too big. They can't manage to manage themselves. It won't happen, but I am of the opinion that these 5 big roads we now have need to be made smaller - reverse mergers. Off topic.

[edblysard]

Kenno,
Thats exactally how I read it.
Now, in all fairness, the second crew earned their upcoming vacation.
Not only did they know about the form B, from the fist screw up, but had a copy in hand, and I hope at least one of them had the GCOR and their rule book with them.
It reads no other way besides what you stated.
Stop.
No movement till gang foreman says ok.
Period.

Both foreman and dispatcher should serve the same amount of days off as the crew.

I go back to work saturday, so maybe someone has bothered to get everyone on the same page by then.

But bet on this,

Between 0800 and 1700, Momma Blysards only son aint going to budge from MP 1.4 till the gang foreman gives me the track, and he comes and removes the flag himself...
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[kenneo]

Ed, if the first crew didn't have a properly issued Form B, they probably can get off. But not the second crew. The Foreman needs re-education. The Dispatcher needs to learn how to sweep a floor because she shure can't dispatch trains.

You are correct about what you do with a Form B. (In the SP Train Order days, it was a Form Y and covered the entire page.)

You come to the limit, stop, and wait for the Foreman to contact you. He is not required to let any train into that limit unless he wants to. When we first went to TWC/DTC (Track Warrent Control / Direct Train Control), we used a version of the CTC rule for Form Y's now know as Form B. Stop. Do not move. When one of the track crew comes to talk with you, he might ride through with you, and if he doesn't, you stop moving right there, because he was required to "flag" you through. He either walked ahead of your train or rode the footplate. If the flag was still up, the foreman himself had to come and flag you through.

I've seen a line shut down for 16 hours because they couldn't find the Foreman. You simply can not enter a Form B limit for any reason at any time without the Foreman giving the OK. Period.

[Anonymous]

This is of NO help whatsoever on this topic, but what the hell.. mine as well post it

This summer all the RTC's Went on Strike. and their managers had to take their jobs, and a Half assed job they did! On a single track, We called in the possibly a "Divergiung clear" signal was not quite the appropriate one, and The amount of times the coulors changed to get from "Diverging clear" (Red/Green/Red) to "Clear" (Green/red/red/) was absolutely amazing (pardon the pun). I'd never seen so many differnet aspects in my life! until finally 2 minutes later the right one was displayed...

Trust me, when Railroad Traffic Controlers go on strike, and your left with a bunch of idiots (their BOSES!) controlling the signals, everyhting goes to hell in handbasket.

[edblysard]

Nhs792,
Read the situtation again, both times, the track gang foreman failed to protect his gang with flags.
Yes, the crews on the PTRA should have read and understood the form B, but, as we dont use them, and until now, never came upon a time where it was applied, no one here knew how to proceed.
We dont blow off rules, this just happens to be the one time we ran across something we dont use.
And trust me, working under RTC leaves you little choice but to follow every safety rule there is.

You could have included the gang foreman and the dispatcher in your statement, they too, failed to do what they were required to under the rules.
I am not here trying to attach blame, I already said our crews screwed up.
What I was makeing sure of was how I interpeted the rules, what it did and didnt say, because its my turn sometime next week.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

Mud, I think that the "hour thing," that you are talking about is that the Foreman is allowed to display their flags up to 1hour before and 1 hour after the times specified for the form B and it still be considered specified in writing. If the flags are displayed outside of these times you are supposed to treat it as a form B unspecified in writing.
Nhs792, I don't think that any of us Just Blow Off rules intentionally. We are human and are subject to misinterpreting rulse. The end result is just as horrible, but not malicious.
Ken

[Mookie]

I smell blood in the air, so before it gets too bad, wanted to share this article I found in this morning's paper.

BNSF railroad works filed lawsuit against the company, saying they were ordered to skip federally required safety measures or face being fired.

Lawsuit was filed in Sioux City US District Court. Managers at BNSF terminal in Sioux City threatened and intimidated employees into not performing safety procedures so the trains would keep running on time.

Employees were ordered to skip inspections and testing of air brake systems, skip inspections of trains for defective cars, not switch out defective cars and run trains w/o required monitoring and communication devices, the lawsuit states.

Back to the adult supervision comment - when DID the animals start running the farm?

Mookie

[Anonymous]

Just a question, what other parts of your rules test are you just blowing off?

Maybe if you can identify the other rules that you are just going through the motions on, you can head off an incident on other rules.

Smith

[edblysard]

I wasnt real clear on why management never bothered to bring up the UP warrants in the first place, after all, we have shared these same stretchs of track with SP, then UP, for almost 80 years!
Of course, everybody is running for cover anyway, but when you ask them, they put on their "real sincere face" and tell you, "but it is in the rule book, and on your rule test, we thought you all knew what it meant.."
Yeah, right.
What they should be doing is
1: Thanking God no one got run over.
2: Looking at this as a learning experience.
3: Solving the problem.
I mean, you have four different groups of people, PTRA management, PTRA road crews, UP MOW and UP dispatchers, all having to work together, and one piece of railroad track and bridge we all have to use to complete our jobs.
Yet, so far, no one has gotten all four groups together, much less on the same page, about a rule that, if not followed by all players, will get someone killed.

Instead of worrying about who to blame, and who to fire, they should be worrying about making sure all parties understand how a form B works.
You would think the MOW foreman would be pushing that, after all, its him and his guys in danger of getting killed.

Instead, the blame game has started already.
Sad, but your right, it often seems there is no adult supervision in things like this.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[mudchicken]

Ed:

We both seem to be on the same page except for the "one hour past" line which I don't remember ever seeing in the rule book. Having been screamed at by a DS to find a missing foreman with the track in his pocket on more than one occasion,the expiration of the form "B" was always treated as an estimate, not cast in stone. Nobody got in there, flags or not, until the discrepancy gets cleared up with the holder of the Form "B"....

It's clear that the bridge and the track over it is Uncle Pete's and that you play by the yellow peril's rules for that reason. I absolutely cannot understand why the local adult supervision allows the problem to repeat itself. At this point, I think I would be pulling the local rules examiner's chain to get this rather callous handling of a safety concern cleaned-up. There is absolutely nothing that stops a railroad from pulling a supervisor out-of-service until he gets the point. Do NOT look at this as a punishment issue, Look at it as correcting an unsafe act(s)....I would be marching PTRA management over to Spring, TX to visit with the Dispatcher Pod and their UP counterparts yesterday, if not sooner, to fix this. This type of nonsense gets people hurt and the clusterfluff was a group effort to get to this point. Scary.

Wear your cast iron shorts to next year's rules class! Should be fun to watch the fur fly.

Mudchicken

[edblysard]

Hi Mudchicken,
Glad to see I explained it correctly.
UPs main comes around a curve, then runs tangent to our track for a half mile.
Our track come out of north yard, crosses a manual interlocker, then runs arrow straight to the power switch with the UP main, said switch is 20 yards away from the bridge.
Both tracks have signals, CTC controled from Spring dispatching center.
The signal is 40 to 50 yards from the bridge.
The UP gang had flagged their main correctly, but two miles away from the bridge puts their flag around the curve, and out of sight from the PTRA track.
They did have a red flag on the UP track in front of the switch, but instead of placing it in the track, it was on the right side of their track, if your facing the bridge.
No flagman, or switch tender.
The limits of the form B sent to us show the north limit as MP 1.4, south limit as mp 2.5, yet the bridge proper is less than a mile from our switching lead, so, unless they are measuring from the center of north yard, the mile post shown would be on the south side of the bridge.
I went over there and looked, their mile post on their main is 3.5, and I know its from Englewood yard.
First time, the crew didnt see a flag, asked for a signal, got it, and ran through a form b limits.
Second time, the PTRA track had been flagged, but when the crew got there, no flag, the foreman had removed it, but hadent given the track back to the DS.
Now, if it was up to me, not only would the crews get canned, but the foreman would be on vacation too, along with the dispatcher.
And I would have someone from UPs Mow and dispatchers come over to the Port, and sit in on our job briefings, and explaind in detail how they go about it.

Like I said, I read the form B to say,
When you get to this point, between these times, stop, and contact the work gang foreman.
Do not proceed untill you get the OK from him.
Period.
No one else can tell you to go, unless a hour had passed from when the form B ended, and then only if no flag is shown.

A older trainmaster told me, signals protect trains, flags protect men.
Sounds good to me.

Sound like a cluster thing to me, they(UP) didnt do what they were supposed to , and protect themselves correctly, the DS didnt read her turnover, (same dispatcher, both times) and our crews didnt read the form B, and if they did, and didnt understand it, they should have asked before they got on the trains!
And, after the first time, you would think PTRA management would have crammed form B down our throats at ever job briefing.
But it took two screw ups before they even brought it up.
Someone is playing cover their butt.
Stay frosty,
Ed

[mudchicken]

Ed, before I Take issue with 2 DS's, a TM and a 4man, I need to understand and make sure I'm clear on the track over Buffalo Bayou bridge....
(1) The bridge is single track CTC (UP controls)
(2) Your main track joins Uncle Pete at a control switch (CTC Signals, interlocking and a power switch machine)
(3) No form B flag (Yellow/Red or Red) set on PTRA's side of the signals at the switch. (i.e. no red flag for PTRA movements on the single track or just prior to the power switch on PTRA's side)
(4) nothing in the form b about short flags (less than 2 miles) or NO flag posted.
(5) no switch tender in place (for whatever reason, temporary interlocking control)

From first impressions until I get some answers:
(A) Forman has properly failed to correctly protect & flag the approach to the bridge (Flagged UP side but not PTRA's ahead of the switch)...The forman is only supposed to answer your radio prompt when he is good and ready to, he is counting on you not passing the red flag (i.e. stop) until he verbals by radio. If he inadvertantly allowed you into his limits by not flagging PTRA's entry to the bridge, hope he stays home until he figured out what he did wrong.
(B) Dispatcher CAN NOT allow train to flag into Form B limit even if its time has expired. DS must hear from person in charge who set the Form "B" up. As in Ironken's and my conversation about taking the railroad home in your pocket, this applies to form "B" or track warrants or "Track and time". If the DS tells them to flag on in, the DS can enjoy an unpaid vacation as well.
(C) If the rookie TM isn't out there finding out where the communication failure is between UP and PTRA, he just lost my respect. If he tells you to flag in there, see how he likes unpaid time off. He better be out there looking for the employee in charge and protecting his crews's safety and freedom to operate...
(D)Why the sam hill can't the railroads communicate better on such a critical issue. They had better fix the problem before an FRA operating practices guy sees this. (ugly)...

There is considerable poor judgement to go around. The whole situation would appear to be an "unsafe act" and I would stop short of the limits and not move until management took full responsibility for this fubar'ed safety situation.

UP M/W foremen, roadmasters, etc. and most others have to apply for form "B" limits 24-48 hours in advance for planning purposes with the DS and the Chief DS's staff. There is supposed to be an overlapping series of conversations set in motion even before the form "B" goes into effect. I detect a basic failure in here as well.

Keep being nosey, I would be too...

Mudchicken

[edblysard]

Actually, its not all that hard to belive when you consider that we are a terminal road, all of our track is considered yard track by the FRA, our main tracks are considered running rails, and we work under RTC in dark territory.
Yes, most of the crews knew what a form B was, from the rules test, but never used them, because the PTRA dosnt issue them, there is no need, with yard speed as the max, and our MOW flags tracks at least one mile ahead of the work.
We also have a job briefing at the begining of every shift, and the yardmaster, who is our "dispatcher" informs crews where and when our MOW will be.
There is only a few places where we have joint track with UP.
And it wasnt untill a year ago that UP even bothered to fax over their track warrants to the tower, and then only because the FRA told them to, so none of our crews have had to deal with a form B on a daily basis.
Basicly, our yardmasters would photocopy the warrants, and hand them to our engineers, who promptly folded them up and stuck them in their back pocket.
Almost every piece of information in the warrants dosnt concern us, its about UPs trackage, which we only use for a short run.
After all, none of our crews are ever going to opperate over the Hearn subdivision!
Management on our property never made a issue about the warrants, and the yardmasters treated the warrants as a bothersome thing.
Because we dont use them for our own opperations, and most of our T&E started out here, and never worked anywhere else, management just flat out didnt bother warrants.
I knew what a form B was, and knew there was one in effect, because I get the warrants from my engineer, and read them, because I am a nosey guy, and figured if we are going to run on their track, like when we run out to their yard to get a transfer train, I figured I should at least read their paperwork.
But, because we have never encountered a UP work gang on any of the joint track we use, no one here had ever had to follow what was on the form B, which we wernt even getting until last year.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

It's very hard for me to belive that an operating crew would not know what a FORM B track bulletin is. It is one of the most basic rules of railroading. In a Form B the Foreman in charge is the ONLY person who can authorize a movement through his limits whie his Form B is in effect. A dispatcher can line switches and signals through a Form B, but the crew may not enter limits without the foreman's ok. Both your crews messed up big time. They should be grateful that they didn't kill somebody.

[edblysard]

This is for CSX dispatcher, and the other pros othe there.
Down here on the little old PTRA, we work under RTC.
But we have some joint CTC trackage with the UP.
On occasion, they bother to send us their track warrants and form B.
Now, our management never stressed the importance of the form B, due in part to the fact we dont use them on our road, our MOW flags the tracks, and our max speed is 20mph, along with the fact that we all know where and what everyone else is doing.
Now, our main and UP's main merge and cross Buffaloe Bayou draw bridge, then continue on for a few miles before splitting again.
UP owns the bridge, and is in the process of replacing cross ties, so the track gang has a form B in effect, form 0800 to 1600.
Within the last week, the dispatcher for UP has run two of our crews past the limits of the form B, and both crews are out of service.
The first time, the track gang red flagged thier main, but not ours, so our crew assumed that was the only track flagged.
Got to the bridge, facing a red board, called the dispatcher for a signal, she gave them a green, and they went on past the signal, but never got to the bridge, the foreman for the track gang got them on the radio and got them stopped.
Second time, the crew arrived at the form B limits, at 1615, no flag, no workers around, again, called the dispatcher, (same lady) to ask if the track gang had given up thier track and time.
She didnt know, but gave them permission to proceed.
Same thing, track gang forman raised heck with them, demanded they be pulled from service.
The question is, who lets you, the dispatcher, know if, when and what limits a form B has.
I read the rule several times over, and the best I can tell, it in effect, gives the track gang forman the track, and no one can supersede that.
He, in effect, owns the track, from 0800 to a hour after the 1600 time frame, if he hasent released the track back to the dispatcher by 1600.
No one can order, or give permission to violate the limits of the form B except the gang forman listed on the form B.

The dispatcher in both these instances, claims to not even know there was a form B in effect, yet on the second violation, she also claims she tried to get the track gang on the radio, and received no answer from him, so assumed they were gone.
How do you and your railroad handle this?
It would seem the responsibility would rest with the track gang foreman to notify the dispatcher when they arrive, and when they are releasing the track back, but if he didnt, the form B would still be effective.
Now, I also interpet the rule to state that, if you can not contact the track forman, you sit there until you get ahold of him, period.
Form B reads Stop, until the person listed on the form gives permission to enter the limits, it gives no other option, and allows no one else to give permission.

By the way, I am not going to quote your answer or opinion at a investigation, just wanted to settle a difference of opinion between myself and a rookie tranmaster, who thinks the dispatcher has the right to allow the crew to proceed if thay cant raise the track gang forman.
He also thinks the gang foreman is at fault, first, for not flagging both tracks, second time for not answering his radio.
I think the crews screwed up, as far as I am concerned, if your on someone elses railroad, you better read and understand their track warrants, especially the form B.
Stay Frosty,
Ed