The Chicago derailment

[eolafan]

Well Wahash1 you really need to read these posts more closely. I never said I thought he SHOULD lose his job permanently (although as a matter of fact I do...provided he is at fault...and not that he should not get another job, just not as an engineer), but what I said is that he WILL lose his job. Furthermore, at the company I work for, if I were the cause of $5 million plus in damage, you better believe I would be fired for good, and so would you (likely). This was no fender bender my friend, and it was just good luck that nobody got killed this time.

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1

eolafan so you think that if a man makes a mistake he should lose lose his job for ever. that would be like you having a fender bender and losing your drivers lic for life. dont make any sense. When a traffic accident happens the person at fault gets a ticket if it happens to be a big accedent ( 10 cars or more) it is worse more people get tickets. but everyone goes on and not thinking of someone getting fired or losing there lic or job.but let a plane fall out of the sky or a train derail and it might be 10% operator fault and 90% company fault they want to hang the operator. Nobody goes to work saying i am going to hurt myself or hurt others today cause i am mad at the company or I dont want to work so ill have a wreck and make a short day of it. this is why they call them accidents the man will get his job back and you will never hear when if he even gets any time off. With the fra investigating I believe he will get some time but the company will get a fine also. this you wont hear about either.

[wabash1]

eolafan so you think that if a man makes a mistake he should lose lose his job for ever. that would be like you having a fender bender and losing your drivers lic for life. dont make any sense. When a traffic accident happens the person at fault gets a ticket if it happens to be a big accedent ( 10 cars or more) it is worse more people get tickets. but everyone goes on and not thinking of someone getting fired or losing there lic or job.but let a plane fall out of the sky or a train derail and it might be 10% operator fault and 90% company fault they want to hang the operator. Nobody goes to work saying i am going to hurt myself or hurt others today cause i am mad at the company or I dont want to work so ill have a wreck and make a short day of it. this is why they call them accidents the man will get his job back and you will never hear when if he even gets any time off. With the fra investigating I believe he will get some time but the company will get a fine also. this you wont hear about either.

[eolafan]

Personally I like anything new and different and the MP36PH-3S units certainly qualify as different to me. They have a sound vaguely remminiscent of an E9 or perhaps it is an SD45, I can't tell for sure but it sure sounds good to me, and the bright shining color scheme is really nice to me as well. Jim

QUOTE: Originally posted by kwboehm

QUOTE: Originally posted by BahnMan1

One of the Locomotives was a brand-new Motive Power Inc. (MPI) MP36PH-3S, just delivered a few months ago. The MP36s are really nice, new, powerful (3600HP)locomotives. It is really a shame for this to happen to one. This is the same type of locomotive delivered to CalTrain for their "Baby Bullet" service.

I don't know about this...I personally think the new units are uglier than sin...or maybe it's just hard feelings because they're being brought in to replace the F40C's

[kwboehm]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BahnMan1

One of the Locomotives was a brand-new Motive Power Inc. (MPI) MP36PH-3S, just delivered a few months ago. The MP36s are really nice, new, powerful (3600HP)locomotives. It is really a shame for this to happen to one. This is the same type of locomotive delivered to CalTrain for their "Baby Bullet" service.

I don't know about this...I personally think the new units are uglier than sin...or maybe it's just hard feelings because they're being brought in to replace the F40C's

[eolafan]

God bless the unions, NOT! (Wow, I can hardly wait for the backlash on that one).

[kenneo]

You will never hear if the hogger gets his job back. You will hear, however, if he does not. If management really tries to make an example of him, the union will shut the place down until he is rehired.

Even though in a mess like this the only logical person at fault is the hogger, management is required by the NTSB to make certain tests and inspections, one of which is proper operation of the signal system and the dispatchers tape which, among other things, shows when signals were set, sometimes even with what indication was showing in the field; switches alaigned (normal or reverse); time a train enters a controlled track circuit and the time it exits. If it changes tracks, that would be shown also. Having been through the experience, even before the hogger is even thought of, the dispatcher understands what a steak feels like on a braisier.

I have seen the following happen --- and it should happen here if applicable, but if the train would get something other than a high green (ie., some sort of restricting signal) departing his previous station (Chicago) to crossover at (54th was it?) and what he did get was a high green (no restrictions), then that dispatcher WILL get 90 days.

You do not change a routing in front of a train within three blocks because it can cause just this sort of thing. The hogger, however, IS REQUIRED to keep the train UNDER CONTROL AT ALL TIMES. Period. So, it really doesn't matter if something else is the real cause, the hogger is looking at 90-365 days; depending on when the switch was turned and the signals set, the dispatcher is looking at 30-90 days. Automatically.

And don't forget that the FEDS have an interest in this. The FRA can mandate (and probably will in this case) what any punishments will be.

[Anonymous]

One of the Locomotives was a brand-new Motive Power Inc. (MPI) MP36PH-3S, just delivered a few months ago. The MP36s are really nice, new, powerful (3600HP)locomotives. It is really a shame for this to happen to one. This is the same type of locomotive delivered to CalTrain for their "Baby Bullet" service.

[eolafan]

OK, wanna bet? Let's make a gentlemens bet. If you see anything that says he gets his job back, let us know the source and I will publicly admit I was wrong. I really don't believe the public will stand for this guy getting his job back as an engineer...track gang member perhaps....but not an engineer. Jim

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1

It dont matter the engineer will get his job back it might take 6 months but he will be back.

[wabash1]

It dont matter the engineer will get his job back it might take 6 months but he will be back.

[kwboehm]

So it was officially determined that the engineer missed the signal, and fault was with the engineer? I thought earlier in the thread that they were looking at the dispatcher pretty hard as well.
Anyone hear anything on the Milwaukee District derailment yet? So far all I've heard was no injuries, but messed up schedules. Any details as to cause yet?

[eolafan]

Bottom line on the RI District deal is that some people got banged up (nobody killed, thank God), a lot of equipment messed up ($5,000,000 plus), a lot of track ripped up, schedules really messed up for two days plus, and a rookie engineer's career and life permanently ruined (better call McDonalds and see if they need a burger flipper, guy!)

[kwboehm]

So, does anyone have a final verdict to the Rock Island District fiasco? Also what's the deal with the latest Metra foul up on the Milwaukee near Wetern Ave.?

[zardoz]

Wabash-
I know, I know. What you said is how we often felt, but ya gotta follow the rules, cause most of the officials from the railroad rode home from downtown Chicago on the trains, so they had "spies" everywhere -- all little yuppie toads just waiting to be able to snitch on someone to help their own pathetic career.

But the hours were regular, and they paid by the mile, as well as overtime...made for some real high-paying jobs, with regular hours as a bonus. But lots of guys could not get over the very feelings you mentioned, that's why lots of the older guys stayed in the pool.

[wabash1]

See it wouldnt pay for me to work on a commuter or even a passenger t rain. If there was a lady in the 4th coach bitching about her pakages .hey sit down shut up i aint going back . train master wants what. he can kiss my and the guy would be a bug on the engine if he stayed in front of the engine. i might start out with 500 people on the train, and if they start complaining we will lose them 1 at a time and if they are a close family they all can go. freight is so much easier.

[zardoz]

Wabash-

Running a suburban train in so close to a station is a necessity in order to make the schedule. Of course, there is some leeway, one does not have to go from "run8" to "full service" at the same spot every time; however, there is very little 'extra' time built in for a more leisurely stop, and frequently that 'extra' time is absorbed by 'runners' (late commuters running for the train that the conductors are required to wait for), people on the wrong side of the platform, or someone with multiple suitcases and kids trying to get on or off the train.

Each different length of train has different stopping differences, with the long trains (7-9 cars) stopping very quick [one 10-car train we ran on the CNW stopped so well, that you could set the brake at 70mph at one end of the station platform (15 cars long) and make a controlled station stop by the opposite end of the platform], and the shorter trains (3-4 cars) requiring longer stopping distances. By the way, I am refering to passenger car lengths (90').

And what kenneo said about the length of time allowed before one all alone in the cab is WAY too short. Sure, if everything is going well and by the book, equipment is functioning as intended, and everyone is on time, then yes, a person with only 9 months can handle it.

But when things start going wrong, and innovation and quick thinking are needed, as well as the ability of concentrating on multiple concerns (forn B orders, slow orders, tresspassers on the right-of-way, reading and understanding your schedule [where to stop, where not to], looking for the tree in the distance which is your spot to either set the brakes or to stop the train using the third coach behind two deadhead coaches, Commuter Control on the radio asking you to tell the conductor that a lady forgot her package in the third car, yadayadayada, decisions and actions are required quickly, and someone with limited experience is likely to have problems.

I am not saying this was the cause of the derailment, I was merely confirming kenneo's point. However, a situation as just described COULD be the cause of such an occurrence!

[wabash1]

well the signals i figure he would get was a clear ( green over red ) then a yellow over green approach diverging and then a red over yellow diverging appraoch. if the distaance is to short your yellow over yellow. if anything was changed it would have been a clear leaving then disp changed route should have went to yellow over red or a red over red over yellow. ( or yellow over yellow restricting is what you say it is on that line) this would mean get it down to a crawl. then put the blame on the disp.

One thing keeps comming to mind. where he derailed it seems like someone gave me the impression that the station was not far away ( a dozen cars or so) if not this statement dont mean nothing if so why was he running so hard I am aware that these passenger trains can piinch down real quick and stop ( not like freight) but still i see no reason to cowboy these things in at that close to a stop at that speed. I know some people get a sense of accomplishment or grattitude if they can do this ( we have something similar in freight) but when its all done the old head guys are not impressed and only self accomplishment is achived. a lot of risk for very little gain. and then the railroad wont release the truth anyways it is always the operator fault regardless of anything else.

[kenneo]

CShaveRR: " ... may not have been changed in time for the engineer to see it."
Wabash1: " ... Exactly what i was waiting for. the previous signal should have been a approach diverging. if it was clear then i would keep going...."

This is a good practical excercise for our new DSt. On the SP when I was DSing, if you needed to change a signal or switch position after the locomotive of an aproaching train had departed the last control point prior, you would set the signal at "STOP" and then contact the train to get an exact location and determine if he thought he could stop prior to your changed signal. If so, and if he was 3 or more signals from your changed signal, you could bend the iron. If not, he had to come to a complete stop at the signal before you could bend the iron. That way, if he could not get stopped, all you had was a signal violation chargable to the dispatcher. No train wreck.

Incidents such as this are caused by a DS not paying attention to his job, by a DS having too much territory, or by the DS not protecting prior to authorizing.

Now, had he departed LaSalle under a restricting signal, there is no excuse for him. The signal he would have had at 47th street probably should have been red over yellow, preceeded by either a yellow over yellow or yellow over red, preceded by a yellow over yellow (dual head) or flashing yellow (signal head). (I don't know how the Rock set up its signals, so I am WAGing on the sequence of signals.)

At one time, a signal "Diverging Clear" could be given (Red over Green or Red over Lunar), but that aspect disappeared 20-25 years ago, except, perhaps, on the old Wabash.

I noticed that he had only 9 months as qualified. What you want to bet that he was the only one in the cab? Inexperience on the handle is the primary reason that firemen were required on passenger trains even though they had been removed elsewhere. Certain kinds of jobs require mentoring and experience under a trainer for a lot longer that some others, and dispatching and locomotive engineers are among them.

[wabash1]

My definition comes from the ns true. but as it was stated that this is the old rock island line, in that it is a old freight line. and that the signals may have been from that old signal system. I know it is hard to believe but as a engineer i do know that differant roads signals mean diferant things. and as some people in this forum Im slightly confused at the meaning of those signals. I know the meanings but the indication is what is confusing.

Now every body get off the floor from falling out of your seats ( ed this means you) as a engineer said he didnt know everything.

[Anonymous]

37 years on the RR as an Engr., and I have yet to see the truth come out, when the public is involved, as far as responsibility goes, for a derailment from the carrier. There is a whole lot more at play here then the public, or the NTSB, will EVER know. His whole life is in the toilet, by the way. I KNOW !!

[CShaveRR]

If this engineer had a yellow-over-green, it's a signal not shown in the Metra section of the CORA book (in fact, there are no signals where yellow and green appear together!).

Wabash1, I know one of "your" railroads must be the NS, and you're right about the definitions on that railroad...but they aren't Metra's!

[eolafan]

My understanding is (from newspaper accounts) that the signals were lined up at the time this train left LaSalle St. station and that his first signal (of three) was amber over amber, followed by amber over green, so they are saying he should have had plenty of warning of his need to prepare to cross over tracks.

[wabash1]

on that road it may be but on the 2 roads i run its advance approach, approach diverging is yellow over green. Now correct me if i am wrong but isnt the metra just a mass transit service operated on old or even current frieght rail? and that its not considered light rail but it uses regular passenger cars and engines?

[CShaveRR]

Wabash1, in the General Code of Operating Rules, amber-over-amber is in fact Approach Diverging.

Today's report says that the route was lined up in plenty of time for the engineer to see all signals connected with the move (so there goes that theory!).

[wabash1]

advance approach it seems like the powers to be are covering something . this signal tells me to prepare to stop at second signal. not prepare for a diverging route.

[wabash1]

advance approach it seems like the powers to be are covering something . this signal tells me to prepare to stop at second signal. not prepare for a diverging route.

[eolafan]

From reports coming out of NTSB and METRA Headquarters and reported in this mornings Chicago Tribune, the rookie engineer simply ignored the signals (his first out of LaSalle staion was amber over amber telling him to slow to 10 mph) but he ignored three signal indications and....WHAM! He has been suspended without pay until the final report from NTSB.

[wabash1]

Exactly what i was waiting for. the previous signal should have been a approach diverging. if it was clear then i would keep going. all of these signals are recorded also when they are lined and when the signal was taken if he took the clear i assume that the next switch could not be lined as our dispatchers can not line a switch on us after taking the previous signal. the only exception is if we take a approch signal previous and then get a diverging approach at nest signal. ( why you ask this is because we are down to a speed that lets us stop at next signal when we get there it is procede and at the speed of the signal and track turn out speed) In my opinion if the dispatcher lined the switch the indication was that the train had not taken the previous signal and showed he had time to reroute the train.. in talking with our dispatchers the system is not perfect. they tryed lining a train who showed he was 10 miles away when he was about to take the signal they was working on lining. what happened is the signal dropped on him causing him to stop. the dispatchers had no idea he was at that signal. the rule is you dont change a signal or route with out contacting engineer to make sure he can stop his train safely before taking that signal. sounds like this didnt happen.

[CShaveRR]

One article I read somewhere (in more than one place) says that the approach signal (actually would have shown as Approach Diverging) may not have been changed in time for the engineer to see it.

So here's my question: is the dispatcher's console monitored by an event recorder, too? Wouldn't it be interesting if the route were lined up only a short time (we're talking seconds here) before the train hit the crossover? There has to be a point where the engineer stops looking at his clear signal and concentrates on the track beyond it. I, for one, would be interested in knowing how the two times (the time the route was lined up and the time of the incident) compare to each other.

[Wdlgln005]

Metra engineer says signals told him to stay on track

October 16, 2003

BY ROBERT C. HERGUTH Transportation Reporter




The engineer of the Metra train that derailed over the weekend told federal investigators that trackside signals indicated just before the incident he was to continue on the current path, not cross to adjacent tracks.

It was at that crossing point just south of 47th Street that the Metra Rock Island District Line train derailed late Sunday afternoon.

The switch had been thrown by a dispatcher for the train to cross from the easternmost tracks to the western ones. The speed limit is 10 mph at the crossover, but the train was traveling at 67 mph, just below the 70 mph limit for continuing on the straight stretch.

"The train's engineer was interviewed on Tuesday," the National Transportation Safety Board said in a Wednesday statement. "He reports that he believed the signals were set for continued operation on track 1, with no crossover movement indicated."

NTSB experts are testing the "signal system on the route . . . to determine if it is operating as designed."

Metra officials, however, have no evidence of signal malfunction.

The NTSB also noted the engineer, while holding nine years of "railroad experience," just became an engineer in July.

"The best news is everything ran on time today," said Metra spokesman Dan Schnolis, adding all damaged track has been replaced and schedules have returned to normal.