Paul_D_North_Jr Sometime during the 1965 - 1980 time frame (approx.), Trains had an essay or 'frontispiece' - by then-Editor David P. Morgan, as I recall - about a B&O train starting out with the POTUS car - Ferdinand Magellan, with FDR aboard - on the rear. That article was notable because the ending was about how the jolt in the cab as the slack ran out warned the crew that the heavyweight Pullman on the rear was going to give them a hard time on the mountain grades ahead ! - Paul North.
Sometime during the 1965 - 1980 time frame (approx.), Trains had an essay or 'frontispiece' - by then-Editor David P. Morgan, as I recall - about a B&O train starting out with the POTUS car - Ferdinand Magellan, with FDR aboard - on the rear. That article was notable because the ending was about how the jolt in the cab as the slack ran out warned the crew that the heavyweight Pullman on the rear was going to give them a hard time on the mountain grades ahead !
- Paul North.
.The Summer 2003 issue of Classic Trains tells how the Magellan was placed at the head end of a POTUS special for President Eisenhower. It solved the problem of slack action but gave the President a very narrow speaking platform. It was never tried again
At one plant where I work regularly the freight elevator is 16'X16" and has a capy of 22500 lbs. 8000 ain't crap. You still can never document FDR in a Pierce-Arrow. It is a plain vanilla old baggage car and the claims that it "hasn't been touched" in all those years are debunked by it's Metro North reporting marks.
Yup - sure do. But fun is where you find it, and facts are timeless - and I'm usually pretty willing to discuss something railroad-oriented technical with somebody who knows their stuff !
Phoebe Vet You guys do know tha this thread is from 2007, don't you?
You guys do know tha this thread is from 2007, don't you?
Which means that if your relatives are visiting, time seems to sloooooow waaaaaay dooooown......
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
I have no idea of the actual weight per sq. ft. capacity requirements of the various building, elevator, and 'hoisting machinery' codes, but consider this nevertheless:
Using 50 lb. per sq. ft. for the "Live Load" - (common for residential buildings), the 8,000 lbs. would correspond to 160 sq. ft. floor area, which could be either a 16 ft. x 10 ft. or 9 ft. x 18 ft., etc. elevator car. (The 3,000 lb. passenger elevator would be 60 sq. ft. or 6 ft. x 10 ft. or so, which seems about right - maybe a little larger than most ?) However, a conventional parking space these days should be 10 ft. x 20 ft. or 9 ft. x 18 ft. or so. In comparison to that, such an elevator would barely be big enough to hold the auto and allow someone to get out of the doors while in transit if necessary. So I could believe the 8,000 lb. capacity requirement on the basis of the required floor area alone. Then too, while a normal automobile might weigh only about 4,000 lbs. or so, what with armor plate, etc. added it might be closer to the 8,000 lb. load than would otherwise be the case. Steel weighs about 490 lbs. per cubic foot, or 41 lbs. per sq. ft. for 1" thick, or 25.5 lbs. for 5/8" thick if it's the same as on the Ferdinand Magellan, so 4,000 lbs. of armor would be 160 sq. ft - probably just about enough to 'wrap' the limousine in (5 ft. wide x 16 ft. long = 80 sq. ft. for the top and bottom = 160 sq. ft. total). So that 8,000 lb. value seems pretty consistent and supportable to me, at least until further and better information is available.
tdmidgetAlso much hoo-hah was made of the 8000 lb frt elevator( not much for a frt elevator in my opinion) " specially designed to carry Roosevelt's Pierce Arrow". Can anyone verify that he indeed used such a car? I did a quick search on Google and found two references to cars used while president, a 1936 Ford and a 1939 Lincoln. At Warm Springs Ga. you can see the car he used there, a 1936 Ford if I remember correctly.
An 8,000 lb capacity elevator is a really big one, it would be a custom size. Capacity, by code, is determined by the square foot area of the elevator platform. An elevator to carry an automobile requires a large platform and therefor a high capacity. A Normal Passenger Elevator today is ether 3,000 or 3,500 pound capacity. A Hospital elevator (Stretcher Car) is normally 4,000 lb capacity, while a Hospital Power Bed size elevator, 5,000 lb capacity. Freight elevators run from 2,500 lb to 6,000 lb capacity.
Don U. TCA 73-5735
First: WELCOME ! Alleghney !
Since this thread does contailne information on the former Presidential Pullman, The following link from 2009 migh be of interest as well:
"Presidential Armoured Train"
http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/p/160700/1770748.aspx#1770748
I think there are also more Threads on the "Mystery Car" that was under GCT in Noo Yawk! As well, a Community Search might bring those links up.
I must respectfully take exception to some things you say about the Ferdinand Magellan.
It was indeed a Pullman "heavyweight" Clerestory car but was decidedly NOT a baggage car. It was ALWAYS an Observation Car, with the usual observation platform on the rear. It was painted "Pullman Green" -not Olive Drab (O.D.). It was originally made by Pullman as one of a special series intended for use as "private cars" having six bedrooms, kitchen, train personnel accomodations, etc, Each car was named after an explorer. When FDR's people thought he needed a special railway car, the Ferdinand Magellan (Later AKA "U.S.No.1") was selected to be rebuilt for his use. The outside was armored on sides, ends,roof and (i think) undercarriage with 5/8" thick armor plate (not really that thick but nonetheless armor plate). The windows were replaced with multi-plate ones to protect the President. Other exterior changes included loud speakers on the rear obervation platform for speech making, and a wheelchair lift to get FDR in his wheelchair onto the car platform from the ground. The interior was changed from six bedrooms to four, making a large bedroom for FDR with grab rails on the wall overn his bed and a large bath with tub between FDR's bedroom and Eleanor's. A special wheelchair was made for FDR's use while on the Ferdinand Magellan. A large conference table was also installed. A crude air conditioning system, using air blown over melting ice was also installed.
The car travelled with sleepers for secret service and other staff, a baggage car, a diner and a signal car, which was staffed by the army signal corps and at stops hooked up to telephone lines provided by the local telephone company. The entire consist was referred to by railroad telegraphers as "POTUS" (an acronym for "President of the United States")for ease in transmission.
dehusman wrote: Except that Roosevelt's 'armored car' was the "Ferdinand Magellan" and is (or was) a museum in Florida.The "armor", "military green" and "gun turrets" is nothing more than people who don't know squat about railroads trying to explain something in as sinister a way as possible to suck in as many veiwers as possible. Its just a heavy weight baggage car with a clerestory roof and riveted construction that was painted a Pullman green color, just like the HUNDREDS of other cars like it were. Nothing more sinister than that. Its like finding an old Studebaker and deciding it must have been used as a secret military "jet engine car" because it has a rocket nose in the middle of the grill.While you people that believe its a secret FDR armored car are in New York, take a look at that bridge in Brooklyn, its for sale and if you want I can get you a good deal on it too.Dave H.
Except that Roosevelt's 'armored car' was the "Ferdinand Magellan" and is (or was) a museum in Florida.
The "armor", "military green" and "gun turrets" is nothing more than people who don't know squat about railroads trying to explain something in as sinister a way as possible to suck in as many veiwers as possible.
Its just a heavy weight baggage car with a clerestory roof and riveted construction that was painted a Pullman green color, just like the HUNDREDS of other cars like it were. Nothing more sinister than that. Its like finding an old Studebaker and deciding it must have been used as a secret military "jet engine car" because it has a rocket nose in the middle of the grill.
While you people that believe its a secret FDR armored car are in New York, take a look at that bridge in Brooklyn, its for sale and if you want I can get you a good deal on it too.
Dave H.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Y6bs evergreen in my mind
The Bagage car is a standard PRR B-60 bagage car assigned by Penn Central to Metro politan region.
It was one of 2 used on Metro North the other one is at Danbury railway museum and was part of old wire train as workshop car, now with roof walk removed.
The presidents car did not travel by rail to GCT it was driven, and backed into elevator to be lowerd to platform where president was picked up.
The MNCX reporting marks were only applied to the cars in 1983 when MNCR was created, they did not have a X in reporting marks under Conrail/Penncentral days.
See:
As you can see the doors are not big enough to have a small car enter the car and turn.
The Waldorf Astoria platform can not be seen from a passenger train unless the train goes around loop track, to poster who says he sees it everyday your confusing it with the 59th street emergency exit.
The Waldorf astoria platform is track 59 and 56, north of yard ladder O and M and north of yard tracks 3 and 4 at extreem right side of terminal, the tracks are still used for storage of MU equipment during the day.
For some of Debunking and maps see Mr Brennan's site:
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/gct61.html
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Actually the Borsig DRG Series 05 002 4-6-4 Was the first to set a steam speed record on 5-11-1936. Speed was 200.4.
-First Diesel Was the DRG SVT 137 :Bauart Leipzig In Germany on 2-17-1936
So far the fastest rocket train is an unmanned rocket sled. Speed was 6453 MPH.
All of this info was found on the link below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_speed_record_for_railed_vehicles
Haha, wikepedia? thats the first thing they tell us in high school! never use Wikepedia!
tdmidget wrote:Also much hoo-hah was made of the 8000 lb frt elevator( not much for a frt elevator in my opinion) " specially designed to carry Roosevelt's Pierce Arrow". Can anyone verify that he indeed used such a car? I did a quick search on Google and found two references to cars used while president, a 1936 Ford and a 1939 Lincoln. At Warm Springs Ga. you can see the car he used there, a 1936 Ford if I remember correctly.
Pierce Arrow went out of business about 1933, when Roosevelt took office, so it's unlikely he used one unless it was a White House vehicle left over from a previous administration. Don't know how often such vehicles were changed or what was in the WH fleet when FDR took office. The talk about the freight elevator sounds like the usual breathless overwrought BS that narrators shovel when trying to make some connection that isn't there. If the elevator was indeed 8000 lb. capacity, some of the limos from FDR's time as president would have come close to maxing it out.
Jack_S wrote: The History Channel has had some real howlers too, unrelated to RRs. I was watching an HC show titled "The Revolution" some years ago (with Walter Cronkite narrating, no less). In solemn tones Cronkite described the British, before the battle of Saratoga, sending an expedition to outflank the Americans by going up the "St. Lawrence Seaway" to Lake Ontario and then east along the Mohawk River to Albany. Cronkite, of course, was just reading the script he was given.Yes, such an expedtion did happen, foiled by the battle of Oriskany and the arrival of an American detachment under Benedict Arnold. But the St. Lawrence Seaway wasn't finished until the Eisenhower Administration, and was barely a dream in the 1770s.And every time some show on Rome refers to Julius Caesar as being a Roman Emperor, I grit my teeth. Every so often they refer to Caesar as a brilliant general who made a play for political power, when the opposite is really true. After a very successful political career, Caesar made a successful play for a plum military command, and succeeded in that as well. It was when he tried to return to politics that the trouble began.Jack
The History Channel has had some real howlers too, unrelated to RRs. I was watching an HC show titled "The Revolution" some years ago (with Walter Cronkite narrating, no less).
In solemn tones Cronkite described the British, before the battle of Saratoga, sending an expedition to outflank the Americans by going up the "St. Lawrence Seaway" to Lake Ontario and then east along the Mohawk River to Albany. Cronkite, of course, was just reading the script he was given.
Yes, such an expedtion did happen, foiled by the battle of Oriskany and the arrival of an American detachment under Benedict Arnold. But the St. Lawrence Seaway wasn't finished until the Eisenhower Administration, and was barely a dream in the 1770s.
And every time some show on Rome refers to Julius Caesar as being a Roman Emperor, I grit my teeth. Every so often they refer to Caesar as a brilliant general who made a play for political power, when the opposite is really true. After a very successful political career, Caesar made a successful play for a plum military command, and succeeded in that as well. It was when he tried to return to politics that the trouble began.
Jack
I bet he was talking the present day seaway.
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
Kurn wrote: If this was such a big deal,someone would have checked it out long ago.The reporting marks are in white paint,not faded,so aren't 60 years old.They read MNCX 01.Metro-North is not that old,so somebody added the marks fairly recently.So Metro-north certainly knows about it.This has been on at least 3 different shows,with people saying they are going to check into it.Maybe the History Channel is planning a "special" where they cut the lock and look inside.
csx engineer
If there are no dogs in heaven,then I want to go where they go.
The real mystery here is how you could be so gullible. LISTEN to this clown. Everything is amazing and mysterious. He claimed that if the old grand central power rectification systen was sabotaged that the entire war effort would have come to a stop because ALL war materiel passed thru there. You believed that? All war materiel for the East coast passed thru a subway station? He rants about "underground rivers" as tho you could fish in them. He claimed that all you had to do was throw a handfull of sand in the "converters" (motor generator sets) and the gears would be destroyed. There no gears in an mg set. He claimed that the trucks were "overengineered" . They did not even have roller bearings.He looks at the side sill and claims that the sides are at least an inch thick.
Do not believe anything you here on these shows. Recently on Mail Call Ermey cliamed that the B36 bomber had turbo prop engines!.
These people are slipshod at best in there research. This particular show was the worst I've seen.
If you complain to them about factual errors you get a form letter thanking you for your interest.
kenneo wrote: OK. So where is the proof. All the "X" means is that the car is not railway owned - as in "Private Car Line" other than AMTK qualified passenger equipment.Csxeng. -- not trying to be snooty, here, but where is the proof - such as a car number or some other documentation. Otherwise, even if what we think we know is true, all we really know is that we have a fine story.
OK. So where is the proof.
All the "X" means is that the car is not railway owned - as in "Private Car Line" other than AMTK qualified passenger equipment.
Csxeng. -- not trying to be snooty, here, but where is the proof - such as a car number or some other documentation. Otherwise, even if what we think we know is true, all we really know is that we have a fine story.
The proof would have been presented on the Discovery. I have personally not seen this episode, but Discovery Channel usually goes for the truth. Just like on the Titanic Mystery. Discovery Channel has all of the people working together to figure out what really happened.
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