Mason City, then east to Marquette, IA which would give them a connection to Savannah, IL and Chicago which would be a gateway to numerous forwarding RR's.
The correct spelling is " SAVANNA " not as you indicated above. Don't take it to hard, many others out there do the same.
ButchKnouse They won't be "taking over" the coal fields. There's enough work for everybody. BNSF got there first, but that didn't keep UP out.
They won't be "taking over" the coal fields. There's enough work for everybody. BNSF got there first, but that didn't keep UP out.
I don't think BNSF and UP would agree with you. I think they would say that they're handling the demand as it is adequately. There is not, as you seem to suggest, an unlimited demand for railroads in this market, and the market is unlikely to grow as much as it did from the time BN opened the market until UP jointed until now. And, as the 2010 Census shows, population growth (and therefore energy demand) continues to be strongest in the South and West. This, coupled with Asian markets, means that the greatest areas for growth in the future are those where CP and their lone east-west route across South Dakota and Minnesota could only serve with great circuity, and a corresponding distance, time, and ultimately, cost disadvantage to UP and BNSF.
Mark Meyer
VerMontanan Boyd: The DM&E would NOT have sold for the price it did to CP if the Powder River basin extentions complete approval didn't have significant value. I'm sure if there are any coal company executives reading your posts they are laughing hysterically. Unlikely. The value of the DM&E/IC&E was the interchange at Kansas City, especially with KCS and its access to Mexico. I'm sure all coal company executives, like most others, are aware of the limited scope of destinations that would be available a CP that would have a route from the coalfields, and that UP and BNSF will not allow their business to be taken over by another carrier without a fight.
Boyd: The DM&E would NOT have sold for the price it did to CP if the Powder River basin extentions complete approval didn't have significant value. I'm sure if there are any coal company executives reading your posts they are laughing hysterically.
The DM&E would NOT have sold for the price it did to CP if the Powder River basin extentions complete approval didn't have significant value. I'm sure if there are any coal company executives reading your posts they are laughing hysterically.
Unlikely.
The value of the DM&E/IC&E was the interchange at Kansas City, especially with KCS and its access to Mexico. I'm sure all coal company executives, like most others, are aware of the limited scope of destinations that would be available a CP that would have a route from the coalfields, and that UP and BNSF will not allow their business to be taken over by another carrier without a fight.
Reality TV is to reality, what Professional Wrestling is to Professional Brain Surgery.
Never say Never on anything in the RR world. Who would have thought that 25 Years ago the SPSF Merger would have been Killed by the ICC. That 20 Years ago the Red and Sliver Warbonnet would return on the Santa Fe and that JB Hunt would put his Trailers on intermodal flatcars. Who would have thought that the NS would have killed its Steam Program in the Early 90's. Who could have seen GE beating EMD in sales when the U25 came out. Who knew that the BN and Santa Fe would be bought be Berkshire Hathaway 5 years ago. Never say Never to anything. The People at the DM&E were not dumb they saw the potential in the market and with CP now in control they could offer seamless service to the PA Plants that D&H Services along with any that are on the CP lines themselves. Look for it to get built sooner than you think I am betting within 5 to 10 years at most why then simple that is when alot of the Nuke Plants either have to be reitred or Replaced and who knows if the NRC and the EPA will alllow the Operators to get another 40 year license to run them.
I don't doubt for a second that access to the KCITY gateway was HUGE - we simply had to have that (and NEVER should have sold it off back in '97 in the first place but that's another argument for another day). But don't totally dismiss CP ever going out to the Powser River Basin either. If the conditions and circumstances warrant it, that option's always available.
Boyd The DM&E would NOT have sold for the price it did to CP if the Powder River basin extentions complete approval didn't have significant value. I'm sure if there are any coal company executives reading your posts they are laughing hysterically.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
beaulieu Mark, the way things are looking Roberts Bank may be the one port on the West Coast where it is possible to ship coal for export. It looks like the Eco groups will have the whole of the US Pacific Coast blocked off.
Mark, the way things are looking Roberts Bank may be the one port on the West Coast where it is possible to ship coal for export. It looks like the Eco groups will have the whole of the US Pacific Coast blocked off.
And Prince Rupert, BC.
VerMontanan Los Angeles Rams Guy: Uh, not necessarily. If CPRS does want to build out there someday, they can definitely get it done if they want to. Right now, with all the uncertainties there are with everything involved, CP President Fred Green has wisely chosen to put the project on hold for the time being. And, as badly as I'd like to see us get out there, I applaud his thinking on this one. But that certainly doesn't mean that it won't be looked at it again if the right conditions and circumstances present themselves down the road. I believe that that the only reason that CP doesn't come right out and say they're never going to build into the Powder River Basin is to save face for the former DM&E management. The project never had merit because of the limited scope where CP could ship the coal (the West Coast, the Southwest, the Southeast are places not accessible by CP). The CP purchase of the DM&E/IC&E was all about the IC&E, not the DM&E. I wouldn't be surprised if CP re-shortlines the DM&E portion in the future.
Los Angeles Rams Guy: Uh, not necessarily. If CPRS does want to build out there someday, they can definitely get it done if they want to. Right now, with all the uncertainties there are with everything involved, CP President Fred Green has wisely chosen to put the project on hold for the time being. And, as badly as I'd like to see us get out there, I applaud his thinking on this one. But that certainly doesn't mean that it won't be looked at it again if the right conditions and circumstances present themselves down the road.
Uh, not necessarily. If CPRS does want to build out there someday, they can definitely get it done if they want to. Right now, with all the uncertainties there are with everything involved, CP President Fred Green has wisely chosen to put the project on hold for the time being. And, as badly as I'd like to see us get out there, I applaud his thinking on this one. But that certainly doesn't mean that it won't be looked at it again if the right conditions and circumstances present themselves down the road.
I believe that that the only reason that CP doesn't come right out and say they're never going to build into the Powder River Basin is to save face for the former DM&E management. The project never had merit because of the limited scope where CP could ship the coal (the West Coast, the Southwest, the Southeast are places not accessible by CP). The CP purchase of the DM&E/IC&E was all about the IC&E, not the DM&E. I wouldn't be surprised if CP re-shortlines the DM&E portion in the future.
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
Los Angeles Rams Guy Uh, not necessarily. If CPRS does want to build out there someday, they can definitely get it done if they want to. Right now, with all the uncertainties there are with everything involved, CP President Fred Green has wisely chosen to put the project on hold for the time being. And, as badly as I'd like to see us get out there, I applaud his thinking on this one. But that certainly doesn't mean that it won't be looked at it again if the right conditions and circumstances present themselves down the road.
RRKen Boyd: Every single hoop, hurdle etc have been passed by the DM&E. CP bought DM&E over 2 years ago. All that CP has to do now is start building it. Still since Sheiffer laid all this out 12 years ago, nada. No money, little support, nothing. CP itself said they aint got the cash at the transaction. Basically, it is still only a pipe dream. If it had been viable, the people with the power and money would have had it done a decade ago. What do they have now? Paper, worthless paper.
Boyd: Every single hoop, hurdle etc have been passed by the DM&E. CP bought DM&E over 2 years ago. All that CP has to do now is start building it.
Every single hoop, hurdle etc have been passed by the DM&E. CP bought DM&E over 2 years ago. All that CP has to do now is start building it.
Still since Sheiffer laid all this out 12 years ago, nada. No money, little support, nothing. CP itself said they aint got the cash at the transaction. Basically, it is still only a pipe dream. If it had been viable, the people with the power and money would have had it done a decade ago.
What do they have now? Paper, worthless paper.
coborn35 A higher up on the CP stated that they were still working on it as of 2011.
A higher up on the CP stated that they were still working on it as of 2011.
Every railroad has hundreds of projects that they say they are "working on". Most don't have half a snowball's chance in Hades of ever coming to be built, but they still say they are working on it...
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
Since this thread was current -- 4 years ago -- we have seen the election of a profoundly anti-fossil fuel administration in Washington. Why would the CP spend several billion to build the western end of the line out to Gillette when faced with a political climate in which coal is public enemy #1? Compared to that problem, the attitude of the good citizens of Rochester is small potatos indeed.
Well it WILL happen sometime in the next 5 years I bet. As soon as the economy comes back,,, demand for coal increases and power plants start to look for cheaper shipping bids it will all open up. When all the oil is gone we will be gobbling up coal like never before.
Boyd Every single hoop, hurdle etc have been passed by the DM&E. CP bought DM&E over 2 years ago. All that CP has to do now is start building it.
There aint gonna be no transload because there aint gonna be no coal. DME had nothing but a pipe dream 12 years or so ago, and they aint got squat now. No investors. No money. Nada.
People keep bringing this up like it is a done deal. Why?
Then of course there is that steep grade down Monana Hill via the 'Bloody Run' stream, ending with a tight curve to the north/south mainline. Dropping down 'Stockton Hill' on the DM&E route at least allows a train to drift up to Minnesota City. The line between Austin and Mason City was in very poor condition in MILW days. It is much better now. Through traffic off of the line west of Austin usually uses a traffic rights cutoff on the Iowa Northern(ex-CRI&P) and bypasses Mason City all together.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
The I C E goes form Owatonna thru Iowa to Marquette Iowa , you could locate a transload facility there.
wjstix wrote:This is just from memory so could be very wrong, but I think the projected customers for the DME coal were in Wisconsin, with perhaps some going to Duluth/Superior to be shipped via the Great Lakes?? I know Wisconsin Power & Light (or whatever they call it) currently gets a lot of Powder River coal via other railroads. Plus there is a coal burning power plant in St.Paul MN that also could become a customer.
If my memory serves me correctly; I think the first plan put forward by DM&E was to move the coal to the East to a transload to be located on the Mississippi River at Winona, MN., and to also interchange with another line to delover some to Wisc. users. The transload facility primarily, was what was being touted originally, with the thru movements to be a secondary benefit.
http://postbulletin.typepad.com/kiger/2006/05/dme_wants_coal_.html
excerpted:
The Dakota, Minnesota & Eastern Railroad is seeking federal permission to haul coal over a line Rochester rail opponents once called “the ultimate bypass.”
In a filing Friday to the federal Surface Transportation Board, the DM&E is petitioning the board to revise earlier conditions forbidding the railroad to route coal traffic onto the Iowa, Chicago & Eastern Railroad, which runs south from the DM&E line at Owatonna, through Iowa to Chicago. The STB imposed the restriction as a condition of approving DM&E’s purchase of IC&E — then the IMRL — in 2002.
This may have been discussed before and if so, my apologies.
I've read an aweful lot about the clamor in Rochester about the proposed DM&E expansion to move PRB coal. On one hand this just kills me given the formerly dependent relationship that Mayo had on the C&NW RR for patient transport... but I'll put that aside.
My question is, in looking at the DM&E / ICE route map, it seems to me that it would be logical to route the coal from the PRB to Owatonna, MN, then south on the IC&E to Mason City, then east to Marquette, IA which would give them a connection to Savannah, IL and Chicago which would be a gateway to numerous forwarding RR's.
I guess it would be a little further, so it would cost more to upgrade, altough the tracks on the line west from Marquette looked pretty decent when I was there recently. If the Owatonna - Mason City segment poor?
Seems like another way to get this thing done.
- - Stack
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