Let's get back on track with this topic .
This was installed on the tracks in front of my house to reduce noise, courtesy of the builders of the high speed line from Amsterdam to the Belgian border. It seems to work too, there is less noise from trains. Though the freight trains at night can still be heard. Anyway, it is better than a 6 meter high sound barrier as was installed on the opposite side of the tracks.
By the way, the high rise in the left background is a hospital. It is going to build a new complex (to consolidate 2 facilities) further down the line next to Rotterdam Lombardijen station.
greetings,
Marc Immeker
deepspire wrote: ::Shudder:: Reminds me of the logic used in the old Soviet Union..
::Shudder::
Reminds me of the logic used in the old Soviet Union..
Reminds me of what they used to say in those USSR days -- one of your guaranteed freedoms as a U.S. citizen is to leave if you don't like this country.
solzrules: "Again, if you aren't doing anything illegal what do you have to worry about?"
marcimmeker wrote: Does "echelon" ring a bell? http://www.fas.org/irp/program/process/echelon.htm
Does "echelon" ring a bell? http://www.fas.org/irp/program/process/echelon.htm
That has to do with computers, not telephones.
I am not I US Citizen. It scares me that my opinion or my legal activities in a country outside the US might lead to a knock on the door in the night and being transported across the world, being tortured and being locked up for years without due process etc. There are plenty of people send home from Guantanamo Bay after years without being charged of any wrongdoing. Are you saying that it is okay to have to classes of people in the judiciary system, US citizens and everybody else? At least the Dutch constitution garantuees equal rights to EVERYBODY on Dutch territory, not just to citizens.
I am saying that American citizens should have full access to the American judicial system. The world is not entitled to it. If you are engaged in plans to blow up Americans (or anyone for that matter) I hope that SOME government has enough wit to start tracking your activities. Again, if you aren't doing anything illegal what do you have to worry about?
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2006/08/connecticut-library-case-records-show.php
And this case is an example of someone's personal freedoms being infringed upon how?
The current government is on a sliding scale down in my opinion. Let us hope that some common sense returns. Most if not all people run a greater risk in traffic than from terrorism. To give up hard won rights without a fight just because a government says so is plain stupid.
Again, no one has asked me to give up any personal freedoms. What personal freedoms has anyone here lost? Librarians have to give information to the government? That isn't a personal freedom. I wish some people would be as excited about credit card companies giving information to the government as they are about librarians.
I climb off my soapbox. greetings, Marc Immeker
I climb off my soapbox.
anyhoo, thanks for the input. Marc. I did actually take the time to read over your links and I appreciate your interest in the matter.
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
wallyworld wrote:Poppa Zit- I dont invest much capital in the quasi-tabloid media's ability to ferret much of anything of value whether it rates paranoia or self comforting illusions of Pollyanna. One can be certain that a certain amount of tracking is going on a overt basis beyond a reasonable doubt.
Well, that's where we disagree. I don't know how you can be "certain" even though you have absolutely no proof. This is a popular conspiracy theory, that's all, that has festered in a paranoid society. I could care less if the government has people monitoring my phone calls to have pizza delivered (cheese, onions and green peppers). Or that I check out railroading books at the library. Personally, if evil people are using the telephone to make plans to kill innocent people, I want the government to know.
Whether this warrants fear that it's only the tip of a long term trend of covert listings is anybody's guess. I just don't need a bunch of bungling bureaucrats in some huge federally ineffective program "assisting " me with enforced strongarm protection out of a misspent free floating anxiety that some potential terrorist is going to "get me" I can get run over by a car tomorrow crossing the highway...as a matter of fact, a little over a month ago I woke up to find myself in the midst of a heart attack...I admire what the folks did in Spain after the bombings -they didnt participate in group hand wringing when they went out on the streets and collectively announced that they were unafraid. Life goes on..and its like stepping onto a boat thats about to sink. Warren Zevon said it best..Life will kill you.
That would be the same "unafraid" Spain that immediately yanked its troops out of Iraq to appease the terrorists, after voting its administration out of office, right?
Enough on this already -- we're way off the topic.
solzrules wrote: wallyworld wrote:There are specific examples of our civil rights being quashed. The balancing act between civil rights, private property and national security is very well encapsulated in the October issue of Trains in the article "We, the railfans, reserve the right to bear cameras." I was surprised that Trains took on a civil rights issue considering their adverse reaction to political commentary on these pages. I applaud them for their stance. Going further, previous attempts to have the government monitor what books I take from the library, What kind of books you want to check out from the library would peak the governments interest? Honestly is this a major crisis? The bill of rights is in danger because the government wants to track books? Guess what, if you keep those books too long the you will be charged late fees. Are they wrong for keeping tabs on that, too? Not only that, the government is more interested in tracking people that use the computers in libraries for illegal activities. It is, after all, a nice inconspicuous IP address. who listens to my private conversations via the telephone, They need a court order to do that (if you're a citizen, that is).
wallyworld wrote:There are specific examples of our civil rights being quashed. The balancing act between civil rights, private property and national security is very well encapsulated in the October issue of Trains in the article "We, the railfans, reserve the right to bear cameras." I was surprised that Trains took on a civil rights issue considering their adverse reaction to political commentary on these pages. I applaud them for their stance. Going further, previous attempts to have the government monitor what books I take from the library,
What kind of books you want to check out from the library would peak the governments interest? Honestly is this a major crisis? The bill of rights is in danger because the government wants to track books? Guess what, if you keep those books too long the you will be charged late fees. Are they wrong for keeping tabs on that, too? Not only that, the government is more interested in tracking people that use the computers in libraries for illegal activities. It is, after all, a nice inconspicuous IP address.
who listens to my private conversations via the telephone,
They need a court order to do that (if you're a citizen, that is).
trials without defendants being able to see the evidence against them
Are you referring to military tribunals? If so, you have nothing to worry about if you aren't a terrorist and you are a legal citizen of this country. The Bill of Rights, after all, only applies to those who are citizens here, not everyone in the world.
And so back to my first point. Do you have SPECIFIC cases where citizens of this country have been refused their rights under the Bill of Rights for any reason (other than criminal convictions)? So far I have read nothing but generalities and hypotheticals. I have not, and I am confident that no one else has either.
This is but one page if you google ACLU Connecticut library to get to the case were librarians had to hand over their data and not be able to talk about what happens.
Photographing trains on private property that isn't yours is a violation of the law and as such, you can expect to be questioned and/or charged. Photographing them on public property is not a crime and therefore you can remind the police of this and continue on your way. If they arrest you then sue them for false arrest.
The current US government is on a sliding scale down in my opinion. Let us hope that some common sense returns. Most if not all people run a greater risk in traffic than from terrorism. To give up hard won rights without a fight just because a government says so is plain stupid.
Our 51st state will probably be Paranoia.
How can anyone be certain the government is listening to their phone calls, monitoring their internet use, or clocking what books they take out of the library? How would anyone know this?
Oh. Because the media says so.
The same "drive-by" media that everyone says is lying to us. So I guess it's OK for conspiracy theorists to pick-and-choose from the media all storylines that are convenient to their purpose, and reject as lies all of those that do not.
wallyworld wrote:There are specific examples of our civil rights being quashed. The balancing act between civil rights, private property and national security is very well encapsulated in the October issue of Trains in the article "We, the railfans, reserve the right to bear cameras." I was surprised that Trains took on a civil rights issue considering their adverse reaction to political commentary on these pages. I applaud them for their stance. Going further, previous attempts to have the government monitor what books I take from the library, what web sites I go to, who listens to my private conversations via the telephone, trials without defendants being able to see the evidence against them are not in my definition of what this country should be admired for.We can all be made very safe if none of of us are able to legally exercise freedom to potentially do ill. However, the DM&E should be able to easily make a case for the greater public good in being able to exercise their right to conduct commerce under existing law rather than be subjected to innovated legislation tailored to suit the interests of Mayo. I think the rights and interests of corporations and the rights of the and interests of the public have always been in contested territory throughout our history whether it was the mining strikes of the Molly McGuires, the Grainger Movement, the GM public transit conspiracy case or the Pullman strikes.
Really good points, Wally!
And don't forget the guy who probably made it possible for FM to do his free library research, Andrew Carnegie, the father of the 1892 Homstead, Pa. Steel Strike, he deserves a place in your list.
what web sites I go to,
I hope for my daughter's sake they track everyone who visit pedophile sites and online predators. More power to 'em. If it is illegal, they should be able to track them just as freely as someone buying drugs in a bad neighborhood.
are not in my definition of what this country should be admired for.We can all be made very safe if none of of us are able to legally exercise freedom to potentially do ill. However, the DM&E should be able to easily make a case for the greater public good in being able to exercise their right to conduct commerce under existing law rather than be subjected to innovated legislation tailored to suit the interests of Mayo. I think the rights and interests of corporations and the rights of the and interests of the public have always been in contested territory throughout our history whether it was the mining strikes of the Molly McGuires, the Grainger Movement, the GM public transit conspiracy case or the Pullman strikes.
You should also note that union workers striking do not always have the interests of the public at large in mind when they are on strike. Usually they are worried about the union members. I would certainly not take a union strike to mean that there is unrest in the rest of the populace. Unions are very good at looking out for unions.
CSSHEGEWISCH wrote:And FM is still willing to abolish the Fifth and Fourteenth Articles of Amendment to support his mantra of "open" access to private property.
What, you're trolling me again?
And since when is anti-trust action in violation of the 5th, 14th, or any other Amendment?
There's a night and day difference between individual liberties and corporate regulation.
TheAntiGates wrote: Humoring you for the moment: The fact of the matter is, citizens protections under the bill of rights have been whitled away under the pretense of making america safer, and the sad reality that many people are gullible enough to swallow that compromise as a good bargain, is very lamentable. Seeing the war powers act manipulated so as to make a mockery of the constitution, is a pantload. Sorry if you disagree.
Humoring you for the moment: The fact of the matter is, citizens protections under the bill of rights have been whitled away under the pretense of making america safer, and the sad reality that many people are gullible enough to swallow that compromise as a good bargain, is very lamentable. Seeing the war powers act manipulated so as to make a mockery of the constitution, is a pantload. Sorry if you disagree.
Yes, you are making me laugh, I'll grant you that. I take it you're not a Bible reader, but even so you might recall the verse to whit (and paraphrasing) "complaining about the spec in your neighbor's eye while ignoring the plank in your own eye". Here you are, complaining about alleged civil rights erosions due to Bush, the Patriot Act, et al, even though you can't name a single right that you've actually lost under said "war powers act manipulation". Yet your mentors on the far left have gone out of the way to ban smoking from public and private properties, banned even the mention Christ/religion during the Christmas holidays at schools and other public places, have tried to get talk radio *regulated* for the sake of some unwritten *fairness* doctrine, are suppressing any scientist that dares criticise whatever eco-crisis indoctrinization is being pushed (global warming, MSG, red meat, arsenic in water, eugenics, et al), are now trying to start taxing carbon dioxide (I guess that means we owe a tax payment every time we exhale!), etc., etc., etc. And now your buddies are trying to stop a badly needed rail project under the guise of *concern* that DM&E might not be able to pay back the federal loan they will get. Paaaaleeaase!
You want gullible, AG? Go look in the mirror, you'll get all the gullible you can stomach!
zardoz wrote: And what the heck does the Sierra Club care about this? I would rant about organizations such as this, but it is too off-topic, and my soapbox is broken.
And what the heck does the Sierra Club care about this? I would rant about organizations such as this, but it is too off-topic, and my soapbox is broken.
Shows me one thing: the Sierra Club has too much time, money and volunteer lawyers on its hands.
samfp1943 wrote: A specific date has not yet been determined, the Sioux Falls Argus-Leader and other news sources reported. "It's possible they could have a decision this year, but I'm still looking for it in early '07," said Rochester City Attorney Terry Adkins.The city of Rochester, the Mayo Clinic, Olmsted County and the Sierra Club all filed appeals of the Federal Surface Transportation Board's approval of the DM&E's proposed project, which would extend the railroad 260 miles into Wyoming's coal-rich Powder River Basin. The STB previously approved the project in 2002, and many of the same parties appealed that decision.
A specific date has not yet been determined, the Sioux Falls Argus-Leader and other news sources reported. "It's possible they could have a decision this year, but I'm still looking for it in early '07," said Rochester City Attorney Terry Adkins.The city of Rochester, the Mayo Clinic, Olmsted County and the Sierra Club all filed appeals of the Federal Surface Transportation Board's approval of the DM&E's proposed project, which would extend the railroad 260 miles into Wyoming's coal-rich Powder River Basin. The STB previously approved the project in 2002, and many of the same parties appealed that decision.
Cripes! The way this is dragging out, the coal seams will be exhausted before DM&E ever lays a rail into the coal fields.
I'm kidding of course about the coal running out, but this sure is taking a long time to resolve.
From a cut and paste of the 20Sept.TRAINS- NEWSWIRE:
Apparently this case is on a track to meove into another courtroom; at this point my only prtediction is that the only winners will be the "suits" [Attorneys]
TheAntiGates wrote: futuremodal wrote: Which of course is your classic way of avoiding an answer to the questions. I could read every one of your leftist rags till my eyes bugged out, and that still wouldn't provide the reasoning for why you can't answer straightforward questions. "Can't"...or"won't bother"? Considering it was you asking, I think that the difference between the two is worth considering. Humoring you for the moment: The fact of the matter is, citizens protections under the bill of rights have been whitled away under the pretense of making america safer, and the sad reality that many people are gullible enough to swallow that compromise as a good bargain, is very lamentable. Seeing the war powers act manipulated so as to make a mockery of the constitution, is a pantload. Sorry if you disagree.
futuremodal wrote: Which of course is your classic way of avoiding an answer to the questions. I could read every one of your leftist rags till my eyes bugged out, and that still wouldn't provide the reasoning for why you can't answer straightforward questions.
Which of course is your classic way of avoiding an answer to the questions. I could read every one of your leftist rags till my eyes bugged out, and that still wouldn't provide the reasoning for why you can't answer straightforward questions.
Generalities and no specifics. You have preconceived notions on what has happened to our bill of rights but no actual evidence to support your claims. What rights have we lost? Do you repeat what other people tell you or do you think for yourself? If you have no specific evidence in regards to what rights and freedoms we have lost than you sound like a 'seal' repeating all the garbage from the bankrupt airamerica-don't bother with the facts, just repeat the rumor because it is politically expedient. Not only that, as soon as you got pressed by PZ about the DME you don't answer the arguments but resort to faulting everyone in the current administration. Sounds to me like a cop out. Can't hit a moving target, right?
futuremodal wrote:Which of course is your classic way of avoiding an answer to the questions. I could read every one of your leftist rags till my eyes bugged out, and that still wouldn't provide the reasoning for why you can't answer straightforward questions.
Poppa_Zit wrote:Most of the time, AG, you make some sense. This is not one of those times. I thought you could do better than playing the hackneyed hole card of going political and blaming the current administration for all that irks you. How does your claim of us attacking other nations to make them safe even remotely relate to this discussion? We went into Iraq to make ourselves safer at home. Maybe we should attack the DME, then go in and rebuild its infrastructure? You have adapted a new style -- parrying all thrusts by failing to answer sound rebuttals, choosing instead to answer with fresh rounds of attacks on minutiae. Oh, woe is us as a species! Jeez, you're letting your sarcasm create a steaming pile of doom for you to sit in. How can one person be so disconsolate? Do you ever allow yourself to have fun?
Most of the time, AG, you make some sense. This is not one of those times.
I thought you could do better than playing the hackneyed hole card of going political and blaming the current administration for all that irks you. How does your claim of us attacking other nations to make them safe even remotely relate to this discussion? We went into Iraq to make ourselves safer at home. Maybe we should attack the DME, then go in and rebuild its infrastructure?
You have adapted a new style -- parrying all thrusts by failing to answer sound rebuttals, choosing instead to answer with fresh rounds of attacks on minutiae.
Oh, woe is us as a species! Jeez, you're letting your sarcasm create a steaming pile of doom for you to sit in. How can one person be so disconsolate? Do you ever allow yourself to have fun?
futuremodal wrote: TheAntiGates wrote: futuremodal wrote: You're dragging blatantly faulty political talking points into this discussion of Mayo vs The Real World for the sake of analogy, No, I'm lampooning convention. My guess is you are lampooning yourself for the sake of keeping this ridiculous discussion going. Enough already. I take the Mayo's critics about as seriously as I do the explanation that high oil company profits are the consumer's fault Hmmmmm.....why do you consider *high* corporate profits to be the result of somebody's "fault"? It may suprise you, but healthy corporate profits usually correspond to a healthy economy. That's a good thing in most folk's opinion. Or would you rather have it the Dem's way - punish successful corporations to induce a recession, then we can all don the sackcloth and ashes and berate ourselves for being such infidels? As for your other questions, you really should read more, it might help give you a deeper appreciation of the world as it happens around you. Which of course is your classic way of avoiding an answer to the questions. I could read every one of your leftist rags till my eyes bugged out, and that still wouldn't provide the reasoning for why you can't answer straightforward questions. BTW - I see that your AirAmerica radio network filed for bankruptcy. That's a real shame!
TheAntiGates wrote: futuremodal wrote: You're dragging blatantly faulty political talking points into this discussion of Mayo vs The Real World for the sake of analogy, No, I'm lampooning convention.
futuremodal wrote: You're dragging blatantly faulty political talking points into this discussion of Mayo vs The Real World for the sake of analogy,
You're dragging blatantly faulty political talking points into this discussion of Mayo vs The Real World for the sake of analogy,
My guess is you are lampooning yourself for the sake of keeping this ridiculous discussion going. Enough already.
I take the Mayo's critics about as seriously as I do the explanation that high oil company profits are the consumer's fault
Hmmmmm.....why do you consider *high* corporate profits to be the result of somebody's "fault"? It may suprise you, but healthy corporate profits usually correspond to a healthy economy. That's a good thing in most folk's opinion. Or would you rather have it the Dem's way - punish successful corporations to induce a recession, then we can all don the sackcloth and ashes and berate ourselves for being such infidels?
As for your other questions, you really should read more, it might help give you a deeper appreciation of the world as it happens around you.
BTW - I see that your AirAmerica radio network filed for bankruptcy.
That's a real shame!
Whoa! Where did you hear that, FM? That's interesting. I guess all that money that they got from the impoverished childrens' fund didn't stave off the inevitable.
Suddenly my day is a whole lot brighter (and it's dark outside).
TheAntiGates wrote: Poppa_Zit wrote: A rate war between UP and BNSF never materialized, did it? And if there was retaliation, we'd be skating on the thin ice of collusion charges. I hope that you're not making the mistake of interpreting an increase in safety violations as an uptick in shoddy or unsafe maintenance, without knowing whether there's been an increase in inspections. And what do those safety violation numbers actually tell us? Are they all equally severe? Equally life-endangering? retaliation-schmalliation, with the goodguys in control of the white house and both houses of congress, it would be dismissed as "market influences" And if that didn't work ol monkey brain could always go on TV and explain that it's really the US citizen's fault, for being addicted to electricity (coal generation) also. The logic doesn't make a lick of sense, but in a day and age where we claim to attack other nations to make them safe, and pretend the key to making america free is to dispense with citizens constitutional protections---what does?Ay-YND: An "increase in inspection frequency"? LOL! THAT's where this DM&E guy messed up, he became a blip on someone's radar screen... too bad for him nyuk nyuk nyuk!
Poppa_Zit wrote: A rate war between UP and BNSF never materialized, did it? And if there was retaliation, we'd be skating on the thin ice of collusion charges. I hope that you're not making the mistake of interpreting an increase in safety violations as an uptick in shoddy or unsafe maintenance, without knowing whether there's been an increase in inspections. And what do those safety violation numbers actually tell us? Are they all equally severe? Equally life-endangering?
A rate war between UP and BNSF never materialized, did it? And if there was retaliation, we'd be skating on the thin ice of collusion charges.
I hope that you're not making the mistake of interpreting an increase in safety violations as an uptick in shoddy or unsafe maintenance, without knowing whether there's been an increase in inspections. And what do those safety violation numbers actually tell us? Are they all equally severe? Equally life-endangering?
TheAntiGates wrote: And if that didn't work ol monkey brain could always go on TV and explain that it's really the US citizen's fault, for being addicted to electricity (coal generation) also.
And if that didn't work ol monkey brain could always go on TV and explain that it's really the US citizen's fault, for being addicted to electricity (coal generation) also.
So are you willing to set an example for all of us and disconnect yourself from the grid?
Didn't think so.
The logic doesn't make a lick of sense, but in a day and age where we claim to attack other nations to make them safe, and pretend the key to making america free is to dispense with citizens constitutional protections---what does?
So which particular constitutional protections have been yanked away from you? And which nations did we "attack" for the purpose of making them safe? Or are you addicted to a fantasy of self righteous antipatriotic abasement? You're dragging blatantly faulty political talking points into this discussion of Mayo vs The Real World for the sake of analogy, yet the analogous examples are as laughable and discredited as the Mayo hyperbole itself.
Poppa_Zit wrote:A rate war between UP and BNSF never materialized, did it? And if there was retaliation, we'd be skating on the thin ice of collusion charges. I hope that you're not making the mistake of interpreting an increase in safety violations as an uptick in shoddy or unsafe maintenance, without knowing whether there's been an increase in inspections. And what do those safety violation numbers actually tell us? Are they all equally severe? Equally life-endangering?
Poppa_Zit wrote: Murphy Siding wrote:It's quite possible, that the defered maintenance is a result of having no money. Needless speculation. The DME financials would be disclosed in the federal loan application process, which will be a matter of public record. After all, DME is using its assets as collateral for the loan.
Murphy Siding wrote:It's quite possible, that the defered maintenance is a result of having no money.
Needless speculation. The DME financials would be disclosed in the federal loan application process, which will be a matter of public record. After all, DME is using its assets as collateral for the loan.
I'll agree with you there. My point was, that the Mayo group would have us believe that the DM&E folks are sitting back, watching their property crumble, and doing nothing about it. It could very well be that they have limited resources at the present, and are doing the best with what they have. That, I'm sure would certainly change, if their financial picture changed
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
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