4 8 4 Question

[Anonymous]

One of the best steam engine wheel arrangements was the 4 8 4. They were capable of freight or passenger runs and were also some of the best looking and best running engines ever. (My opinion.)

My question is this -- was there ever a b a d 4 8 4 ? Bad looking, bad running, just plain b a d. Now I understand that this is an opinion question, so if you post a bad engine please try and also give a web address so we can see your b a d engine. At the very least please give a written account of why it was a b a d engine.

I am looking forward to reading the post on this question, so please take the time to let us hear from Y O U ! ! !

Stay Safe, be careful, and as always, Look, Listen, and Live.

And don't forget about our armed forces people serving their country.

Thanks yall.

[Anonymous]

One of the best steam engine wheel arrangements was the 4 8 4. They were capable of freight or passenger runs and were also some of the best looking and best running engines ever. (My opinion.)

My question is this -- was there ever a b a d 4 8 4 ? Bad looking, bad running, just plain b a d. Now I understand that this is an opinion question, so if you post a bad engine please try and also give a web address so we can see your b a d engine. At the very least please give a written account of why it was a b a d engine.

I am looking forward to reading the post on this question, so please take the time to let us hear from Y O U ! ! !

Stay Safe, be careful, and as always, Look, Listen, and Live.

And don't forget about our armed forces people serving their country.

Thanks yall.

[JoeKoh]

I dont think there was ever a bad 484.Just which one was the best. My vote is for the N&W J-611.
stay safe
joe

[JoeKoh]

I dont think there was ever a bad 484.Just which one was the best. My vote is for the N&W J-611.
stay safe
joe

[Anonymous]

Jim, it will be surprising if you get many candidates for bad 4-8-4 types. Under the very wide range of right operating conditions, IMHO, it was probably a perfect type.
Recall Rock Island was so fond of them the road had a very large fleet. A web search easily locates a number of sources of information. Side note: Where CB&Q advertised "Everywhere West," seemed to me the Rock Island just went "Everywhere." [:)]
Vern

[Anonymous]

Jim, it will be surprising if you get many candidates for bad 4-8-4 types. Under the very wide range of right operating conditions, IMHO, it was probably a perfect type.
Recall Rock Island was so fond of them the road had a very large fleet. A web search easily locates a number of sources of information. Side note: Where CB&Q advertised "Everywhere West," seemed to me the Rock Island just went "Everywhere." [:)]
Vern

[Trainnut484]

I don't recall a bad 4-8-4 type that existed! [^][^][^]

[Trainnut484]

I don't recall a bad 4-8-4 type that existed! [^][^][^]

[Anonymous]

HwyHaulier, thanks for the post. I remember watching the news the day the Rock Island ceased operations. How sad I was to see such a large railroad so under. It did go many places, unfortunately to the bank with large deposits wasn't one of them.
Way to much competition and bad management doomed the Rock Island just as it did many a once fine railroad. Too bad the UP didn't merge the Rock when it tried. It seems like they sure merged about everything else they could get their hands on. Don't get me wrong, I like UP. If they could have merged the Rock when they tried it would have given them new trackage back when they weren't the giant they are now. It might not have changed the face of railroading much but it could have saved a railroad and many jobs. I have one of the last TimeTables from the Rock and their trackage was impressive. However, because of bad management and deferred maintenance there were many speed restrictions, and I believe everyone will agree the customer wants his boxcar at its destination the day before yesterday not next week.

There are many great railroads gone now because of many different reasons. But every railfan and railroader should agree, every one lost is a great tragedy--jobs lost, trackage abandoned, lives changed. How sad it truly is to lose even one railroad.

Thanks everyone for your comments and posts. Keep up the good work.

Stay safe, and remember Look, Listen, and Live.

Please don't forget the troops overseas protecting our country.

[Anonymous]

HwyHaulier, thanks for the post. I remember watching the news the day the Rock Island ceased operations. How sad I was to see such a large railroad so under. It did go many places, unfortunately to the bank with large deposits wasn't one of them.
Way to much competition and bad management doomed the Rock Island just as it did many a once fine railroad. Too bad the UP didn't merge the Rock when it tried. It seems like they sure merged about everything else they could get their hands on. Don't get me wrong, I like UP. If they could have merged the Rock when they tried it would have given them new trackage back when they weren't the giant they are now. It might not have changed the face of railroading much but it could have saved a railroad and many jobs. I have one of the last TimeTables from the Rock and their trackage was impressive. However, because of bad management and deferred maintenance there were many speed restrictions, and I believe everyone will agree the customer wants his boxcar at its destination the day before yesterday not next week.

There are many great railroads gone now because of many different reasons. But every railfan and railroader should agree, every one lost is a great tragedy--jobs lost, trackage abandoned, lives changed. How sad it truly is to lose even one railroad.

Thanks everyone for your comments and posts. Keep up the good work.

Stay safe, and remember Look, Listen, and Live.

Please don't forget the troops overseas protecting our country.

[Anonymous]

Trainnut484, I knew you would respond to this topic. Glad you did.

When you go down to Springfield have you ever went to Grant Beach Park and seen the Frisco 484 there? I believe the number is 4524. It was built by Lima. It is not far from where you said you sit and drink ice tea.

Stay safe.

[Anonymous]

Trainnut484, I knew you would respond to this topic. Glad you did.

When you go down to Springfield have you ever went to Grant Beach Park and seen the Frisco 484 there? I believe the number is 4524. It was built by Lima. It is not far from where you said you sit and drink ice tea.

Stay safe.

[Anonymous]

Jim, along the lines of your response about great railroads now gone. Best I get some crying towels!
Didja' note the NKP piece in latest Trains? Years back, I worked with a number of ex Lackawanna folks. IMHO, NKP and DL&W sure were a couple of classy, well run lines.
Some of my Rock memories date to the era of Crown Family ownership.
Vern

[Anonymous]

Jim, along the lines of your response about great railroads now gone. Best I get some crying towels!
Didja' note the NKP piece in latest Trains? Years back, I worked with a number of ex Lackawanna folks. IMHO, NKP and DL&W sure were a couple of classy, well run lines.
Some of my Rock memories date to the era of Crown Family ownership.
Vern

[Anonymous]

When I was still too young to know any better I always included smokestack height as a major factor contributing to or detracting from the good looks of a locomotive. So when I first visited the Pacific Northwest and saw Northern Pacific's 2600-2625 A-class 4-8-4s (the first 4-8-4s ever built) I was a bit shocked at the height of the smokestack, also the unique NP-style headlight, and the lack of ladders (just a step) connecting the pilot beam with the running board. The front end had all the characteristics of an old 4-6-2. But I guess they worked like a 4-8-4 should!

[Anonymous]

When I was still too young to know any better I always included smokestack height as a major factor contributing to or detracting from the good looks of a locomotive. So when I first visited the Pacific Northwest and saw Northern Pacific's 2600-2625 A-class 4-8-4s (the first 4-8-4s ever built) I was a bit shocked at the height of the smokestack, also the unique NP-style headlight, and the lack of ladders (just a step) connecting the pilot beam with the running board. The front end had all the characteristics of an old 4-6-2. But I guess they worked like a 4-8-4 should!

[AltonFan]

I remember reading that the "Four Aces", built For Timken to demonstrate roller bearings had some issues, although I don't recall specifically what they were. I understand that the Northern Pacific only bought the engine because it had been damaged on their property.

[AltonFan]

I remember reading that the "Four Aces", built For Timken to demonstrate roller bearings had some issues, although I don't recall specifically what they were. I understand that the Northern Pacific only bought the engine because it had been damaged on their property.

[Anonymous]

AltonFan I used to work for Rail Bearing Service in North Little Rock. We reconditioned roller bearings. The vast majority of them being Timken. We were bought by and bacame a subsidiary of Timken. I have hanging on my wall a nice framed group of 4 pics of the Four Aces. One of the pics includes the loco specs. I have never heard about the damage part, but I knew it tested on the NP. I will include some of the specs for those who are interested.

Builder ALCO, Road Number 1111, Cylinders 27", Driving Wheels 73"
Weight (in working order) Engine 417,500 lbs, Tender 294,000 lbs,
Maximum Tractive Power Engine 59,900 to 63,700 lbs depending on boiler pressure of 235 to 250 lbs, Booster 12,000 to 12,800 lbs,

Of course there are more stats but these are the more interesting ones. Later northerns had better tractive power, hopefully some of you can give stats on the 844 or the 819 or some of the other current northerns still running. I don't have time right now to check on this.

Thanks everyone.

Stay safe and don't forget to Look, Listen, and Live.

Remember our service men and women.

[Anonymous]

AltonFan I used to work for Rail Bearing Service in North Little Rock. We reconditioned roller bearings. The vast majority of them being Timken. We were bought by and bacame a subsidiary of Timken. I have hanging on my wall a nice framed group of 4 pics of the Four Aces. One of the pics includes the loco specs. I have never heard about the damage part, but I knew it tested on the NP. I will include some of the specs for those who are interested.

Builder ALCO, Road Number 1111, Cylinders 27", Driving Wheels 73"
Weight (in working order) Engine 417,500 lbs, Tender 294,000 lbs,
Maximum Tractive Power Engine 59,900 to 63,700 lbs depending on boiler pressure of 235 to 250 lbs, Booster 12,000 to 12,800 lbs,

Of course there are more stats but these are the more interesting ones. Later northerns had better tractive power, hopefully some of you can give stats on the 844 or the 819 or some of the other current northerns still running. I don't have time right now to check on this.

Thanks everyone.

Stay safe and don't forget to Look, Listen, and Live.

Remember our service men and women.

[Trainnut484]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jhhtrainsplanes

Trainnut484, I knew you would respond to this topic. Glad you did.

When you go down to Springfield have you ever went to Grant Beach Park and seen the Frisco 484 there? I believe the number is 4524. It was built by Lima. It is not far from where you said you sit and drink ice tea.

Stay safe.

Yes, and I have pictures of it. I also went inside the little museum they have in the baggage car, and strolled thru the commuter car. There are a couple of Frisco steamers at the Transportation museum in St. Louis, MO. I can't recall the #'s. (CRS kicking in again LOL).

[Trainnut484]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jhhtrainsplanes

Trainnut484, I knew you would respond to this topic. Glad you did.

When you go down to Springfield have you ever went to Grant Beach Park and seen the Frisco 484 there? I believe the number is 4524. It was built by Lima. It is not far from where you said you sit and drink ice tea.

Stay safe.

Yes, and I have pictures of it. I also went inside the little museum they have in the baggage car, and strolled thru the commuter car. There are a couple of Frisco steamers at the Transportation museum in St. Louis, MO. I can't recall the #'s. (CRS kicking in again LOL).

[sooblue]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jhhtrainsplanes

AltonFan I used to work for Rail Bearing Service in North Little Rock. We reconditioned roller bearings. The vast majority of them being Timken. We were bought by and bacame a subsidiary of Timken. I have hanging on my wall a nice framed group of 4 pics of the Four Aces. One of the pics includes the loco specs. I have never heard about the damage part, but I knew it tested on the NP. I will include some of the specs for those who are interested.

Thanks everyone.
Stay safe and don't forget to Look, Listen, and Live.
Remember our service men and women.

Trains had an article on the Four Aces.
In the article there was a picture that showed a line up of women who pulled that engine by hand down the rail. (P. R. photo)
If I remember correctly the RRs liked that engine but most of them didn't trust the "new technology" for the rod main. Little did they know !

Sooblue

[sooblue]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jhhtrainsplanes

AltonFan I used to work for Rail Bearing Service in North Little Rock. We reconditioned roller bearings. The vast majority of them being Timken. We were bought by and bacame a subsidiary of Timken. I have hanging on my wall a nice framed group of 4 pics of the Four Aces. One of the pics includes the loco specs. I have never heard about the damage part, but I knew it tested on the NP. I will include some of the specs for those who are interested.

Thanks everyone.
Stay safe and don't forget to Look, Listen, and Live.
Remember our service men and women.

Trains had an article on the Four Aces.
In the article there was a picture that showed a line up of women who pulled that engine by hand down the rail. (P. R. photo)
If I remember correctly the RRs liked that engine but most of them didn't trust the "new technology" for the rod main. Little did they know !

Sooblue

[Anonymous]

Sooblue I know exactly the pic you are talking about, I have a copy of it somewhere. Who knows where? Trainnut484's CRS is working down here too. LOL.

I meant to post the outshop date for 1111, the pic I have shows April 1930. The Four Aces's bell sits in one of Timken's buildings.

Thanks everyone for your comments, keep up the good work.

Do any of you railroaders have any comments about 4 8 4 s you might have had the opportunity to run or fire? I volunteered in the Arkansas Railroad Museum at Pine Bluff and worked in one of the passenger cars as a car host during our annual run to Tyler, Texas. The Cotton Belt 819 ( a 4 8 4 ) always ran great. The only problem I know of is one year the whistle broke and had to be replaced. One of the early whistles sounded really bad, but it was replaced with a better sounding one.

Hey look there, a b a d comment about a 4 8 4. I had forgotten about the whistle problem.

Stay safe, and always Look, Listen, and Live.

Please remember the armed service people defending our country.

[Anonymous]

Sooblue I know exactly the pic you are talking about, I have a copy of it somewhere. Who knows where? Trainnut484's CRS is working down here too. LOL.

I meant to post the outshop date for 1111, the pic I have shows April 1930. The Four Aces's bell sits in one of Timken's buildings.

Thanks everyone for your comments, keep up the good work.

Do any of you railroaders have any comments about 4 8 4 s you might have had the opportunity to run or fire? I volunteered in the Arkansas Railroad Museum at Pine Bluff and worked in one of the passenger cars as a car host during our annual run to Tyler, Texas. The Cotton Belt 819 ( a 4 8 4 ) always ran great. The only problem I know of is one year the whistle broke and had to be replaced. One of the early whistles sounded really bad, but it was replaced with a better sounding one.

Hey look there, a b a d comment about a 4 8 4. I had forgotten about the whistle problem.

Stay safe, and always Look, Listen, and Live.

Please remember the armed service people defending our country.

[Anonymous]

Trainnut484 The commuter car is a recent addition. I am not sure how long it has been there. I noticed it in July when I went up there for my mother's birthday. The Frisco never operated a car like that.

When I was little the only items there were the engine and the tender. I think there might have been a speeder (as a kid we called them put-put cars). (O k you all stop laughing.) Then I guess in the 80s the BN caboose was added.

My sister told me they had moved the items from the Frisco Railroad Muesum to the Fairgrounds. She also told me that a couple of months ago the building housing these items blew up killing at least one person and destroying everything. I will see if I can get a newspaper article on this and post it.

Stay safe and don't forget Look, Listen, and Live.

Remember the troops.

[Anonymous]

Trainnut484 The commuter car is a recent addition. I am not sure how long it has been there. I noticed it in July when I went up there for my mother's birthday. The Frisco never operated a car like that.

When I was little the only items there were the engine and the tender. I think there might have been a speeder (as a kid we called them put-put cars). (O k you all stop laughing.) Then I guess in the 80s the BN caboose was added.

My sister told me they had moved the items from the Frisco Railroad Muesum to the Fairgrounds. She also told me that a couple of months ago the building housing these items blew up killing at least one person and destroying everything. I will see if I can get a newspaper article on this and post it.

Stay safe and don't forget Look, Listen, and Live.

Remember the troops.

[AltonFan]

jhhtrainsplanes,

Apparently, "Four Aces" wasn't set up to use the poor quality coal that the Northern Pacific used. There was also damage to the crown sheet while the engine was in use on the NP, and apparently NP was stuck between paying for repairs and returning the engine to Timken, or buying it outright. It sounds to me like the engine was basically sound, but not suited to NP's particular situation.

This was recounted in George Drury's Guide to North American Steam Locomotives, in the article on the Northern Pacific.

QUOTE: In the article there was a picture that showed a line up of women who pulled that engine by hand down the rail. (P. R. photo)

sooblue,

I thought the picture you mention was of a NYC Niagara.

[AltonFan]

jhhtrainsplanes,

Apparently, "Four Aces" wasn't set up to use the poor quality coal that the Northern Pacific used. There was also damage to the crown sheet while the engine was in use on the NP, and apparently NP was stuck between paying for repairs and returning the engine to Timken, or buying it outright. It sounds to me like the engine was basically sound, but not suited to NP's particular situation.

This was recounted in George Drury's Guide to North American Steam Locomotives, in the article on the Northern Pacific.

QUOTE: In the article there was a picture that showed a line up of women who pulled that engine by hand down the rail. (P. R. photo)

sooblue,

I thought the picture you mention was of a NYC Niagara.