QUESTION FOR A PROFESSIONAL RAILROADER

[JeremyB]

Hi There

I Have a question that I hope somebody can answer? What is a approx. speed for a freight train running through a countryside? and what is the speed of a freight going through a grade crossing?can anybody answer this for me.again im not looking for an exact speed,just and approx.
Thanks for any info anybody can lend me.
Jeremy.

[Anonymous]

I must clarify up front that I'm not an expert, however there is some issues with the actual speed and the percieved speed of the train. Because of the size, a train appears to be going slower than it actually is. This sets up a very dangerous situation at a passive crossing which constitutes a majority of the crossings in this country. I think the "speed limit" is set up by the FRA based on the class of track. I'm not positive. I do know that local communities can establish a speed limit for there area but the railroad is not obligated to follow it. This is another issue that is sad because who knows best about the local conditions, local legislatures or the FRA. Once again we dive into the Federal protection through Preemption that is given to the railroad. This needs to be changed, local and state need to be able to "fine tune" the federal standards to meet the local conditions and be able to fine the railroad for failure of compliance. I hope this helps, have a good day.
Mike Papula

[mudchicken]

Jeremy:

Please talk to the State DOT or Public Utilities RR Engineer in your local state.

Papula is again clueless and is still trying to hijack the forum to make it fit his warped view of the world. (If we followed his logic, we'd all still be living in caves)....Each state carries a different approach to how crossings are regulated. Each state interact with railroads (public or private) using that state's cdified regulations. Speed is a function of many variables, not just the 49CFR213 FRA regulations. The FRA is actively trying to reduce the motorist "idiot factor" by trying to close needless crossings. The locals often fight this even though local & state government will not (or can't afford to) upgrade a crossing where the motorist traffic increases while train traffic decreases.(But we can spend tons of ISTEA-TEA21-SAFE-TEA money on bike and hiking trails that are rarely used along with "beautification"?)I have seen many times where railroads trying to be good neighbors comply with local wishes (whistle bans and speed restrictions) only to see the locals find new idiotic ways to test Darwin's laws of natural pre-selection and create longer wait times.... You are not likely going to get your desired candid answer on this forum until the warped little one-sided minds find someplace else to roost.

[JoeKoh]

Hi Jeremy
I just take train pictures but I can tell you that here I have seen signs for trains that say 60 and for crossovers that say 40.Not all raillines are the same and some could have restrictions for maintenence or some could not.The point is that if someone decides to race a train to a crossing and you tie YOU LOSE!
I hope this helps somewhat but please LOOK LISTEN LIVE.
stay safe
joe

[Anonymous]

Hi Jeremy

I would just like to ask you what your reasons are for your question. Reason being that reacently this forum has been nothing less than inandated(sp?) by a few people that are absonlutly obbssesed by the topic of rail crossing in a negative attempt to persicute the rail roads for being irresponsible.... so I would not want to automatically group you into that bunch if you were simply asking an innocent question, and are now boggled by both the negative and political responses you are getting....

However, if you are upset at something which happend in your life, or indeed to the life of someone that you love, and you are seeking to find vindication - I will then ask you this: Why is important for you to know the speeds in which a train is permitted to travel along a counrty rail line and then a crossing? May I elaborate to clarify why I am throughing back to you your question, (if indeed this was your intent). If a car can travel 60 miles an hour on a highway/freeway, would you ever question why a motorist was travelling on that freeway at 60mph? If you or someone you love was injured or worse because you/they disregarded that a freeway has trucks that travel at that same speed on that same freeway still abide by that same speed limit, do you have reason to blame the truck that hit you/them?

Question - when you did drivers education, before you received your drivers licence, did they not tell you to slow down and look both ways before crossing railroad tracks? Even when there are gates I was always taught to slow down and look. I travelled two hours a day by school bus as a child to get to my school and there were always tracks we had to cross; our drivers HAD to stop (non-negotiable, LAW) at EVERY crossing OPEN the door and look both ways before crossing. Not really a bad percaution, if you really stop to think about it.

But your argument might not question the logic of slowing down or even stoping....you might be asking so that you can in future better anticipate when a train might be travlling at a meandering pace that will delay you a half hour waiting for it to CRAWL by, and when you can safely determin for yourself, "Hey, I know that train looks slow, but it's going to be on top of me in a half a second!"

Interesting, however, I would never try and give you an answer for that. Always expect that IF you see a train STOP! OH MY GOD, STOP!!! Never think that you know better. NEVER EVER think that you can beat the train. And For Mercy's sake, if the gates are down on a crossing, don't go around them!
(and mike and missouri, and the rest of you, if you felt like commenting on any of this, and saying that people don't or that it is more rare that accidents at crossings happen when people drive around gates, I have this to say: I work in a busy corridor between Windsor and Quebec city. MOST of the crossings along there are gated. I have been iinvolved in 3 crossing accidents in the 6 years, and they were all because some *&^$£!!!! thought he could drive around the gate and beat the train.)

The above all being a good reason why you can't generalize the speed of the train. A freight train carring 12 cars empty cars will travel faster than a freight train carring 200 cars filled with automobils, petrol, lumber ect... as a passenger train on an express route will travel faster than two of them combined. They will never be given permission to travel faster than is safe. However if you are sitting at a crossing trying to decide and determine which of the kinds of trains are coming and how fast in the split seconds it should take...HOLY! How good is your mathimatical physics that you can figure when it's safe or not? If you can see the train - it's not safe. Sit back and count the cars, cause you're not going anywhere!!

If jeremy, yours was truly an innocent question, I appologize, but bad timing, ask again in about a year, okay?

[Anonymous]

to add to Mr toronto's EXCELLENT response i'm jsut going to add this

The train is most likely going a He1l of alot faster then you think it is.

STOP, LOOK, LISTEN, LIVE
Kev.

[Anonymous]

HAhahaha
Kev you jump to conclusions...
sorry, but it's MS Toronto
:)

[Anonymous]

do you agree that that's a safe conclusion to jump too?

lol

kev.

[edblysard]

Jeremy,
Speed limits in open country are set by the FRA depending on the condition and maintainence of the track, roadbed and type of equipment that will use the track. Most crossing speeds within a city or town are set by compromise between the railroad and the town. Some towns dont bother to ask, and therefor the track speed thorugh the crossing often remains the same as out on the open countryside. Speed through turnouts, and crossovers is determined by the both the FRA and the railroad depending on the type of train, and what cargo it is hauling. Passenger trains are often allowed to use crossovers at a faster speeds than the freight trains, due to the design of the trucks they use. If you are looking for a number as in 60 mph, or some such, then you need to know where, as each section of track may have a different speed limit, depending on the terrain and track conditions. As for approxamate speed, in open country side with good to excellent track, 60 to 75/80 mph for intermodel, 60 for general freight, 45 for freight train with hazardous cargo. These speeds would drop, to say 40 to 50 mph in a urban setting, then down to 35/40 mph in a surburban setting, and restricted speed, ( a speed which will allow the train to stop with 1/2 the visiual distance of men, equipment fouling the track, and improperly lined switches) but not to exceed 20mph. So for a crossing out in the boonies, the train will stay at track speed, 60+, and in a crowded city, except for commuter trains, the speed would be around 20mph or less.
Any help?
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

What Edhead is saying as long as the tracks will hold up the weight and the trains don't go flying off the curves they go as fast as they want and the heqq with anything or anybody that gets in the way at crossings.

http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/media/twgreport.htm#663
Supposedly gates are to be at all sight obstructed crossings with train speeds above 40 and lights at all other crossings under 40. Until the high speeds >79 mph (the FRA are idiots) then quad gates are to be used. So there are 78% of the crossings MISSING the proper crossing equipment for the rediculous train speeds the FRA has set. The Amtrak speeds are nothing about Amtrak who only owns 750 miles of track but the freight that follows the 79 mph passenger trains at 60 mph. So basically to save the railroads a few bucks on crew labor and the crews are dumb enough to become the speeding bullet through the illegally protected crossings.

[Anonymous]

http://www.bnsf-ttc.com/bnsftime/index.html There you go Jeremy. Now you can put your mile markers out and know the track speeds. http://safetydata.fra.dot.gov/OfficeofSafety/ Take the mile markers and querry by location for the state, county, or city which are listed by mile markers in the FRA data base. Some places might be confusing because there are 20 crossings listed with the same crossing numbers like there is a 20 story crossing there or something. (Taxes and to make there look like there are 10X more crossings than there really is.)

[JoeKoh]

Jeremy
please excuse the clown.He is a rabid self- interested self centered person who wants to talk about me mem me! Ed is correct it depends on the situation.I have seen intermodals go 70 mph.Just rememeber stop look listen and live.
Any more Questions the other people in the forum will (myself included) help out as much as possible.
stay safe
Joe

[Anonymous]

sorry man i didn't know this was for your model train
Island of montreal
95 MPH Commuter CP rail
65 MPH Freight CP rail
35 MPH Freight CP(carrying propane, inoxious gas... )

CN speed values (these MAY be incorrect, i don't work for them!)

75 MPH Passenger (via rail)
70 MPH Freight C.N.R
35 MPH Freight C.N.R (carrying Gas, propane,)

those are the values for on island of Montreal, Note: once off the island.. there is no more 35 MPH. that is only in place to regulate Freight trains carrying dangerous goods near houses on the isalnd of montreal

kev.

[wabash1]

well to give the guy the speed limits he wants i wont go into storybook stuff. its like this on the railroad i work for the speed for rail highway is 60mph. for regular frieght trains its 50 mph. there is no restriction on hazmat it goes 50mph or 60 if in a container. all speed restrictions on our road is for curves only. other wise put it in 8 and ride.

[Anonymous]

why missouri did you answer, can't you read the TITLE of this topic?

defenately NOT for you!

kev.

[JeremyB]

I JUST ASKED THIS QUESTION SO I COULD KNOW WHAT PROTOTYPICAL SPEEDS THAT I COULD ADD TO MY LAYOUT.NOTHING MORE........SO THANKS FOR THE HELP..

[Anonymous]

Jeremy
I am soooooo sorry.
I really did beraid you, and I apologize profusely. I really did mis-interpret your question. I thought you were heading down THAT path in another attempt...., well, anyways, sorry
-Toronto

[edblysard]

Jeremy,
Do you model freelance, or a prototype?
If freelance, is it losely based on a real road? If so, try to find a timetable from that road, and that time period. Timetables have all the speed limits and restrictions for that district. Greenburs train show, and most of the model train shows have collectors who deal in timetables, for a few buck, you can get one. Or check the adds in Model Railroader, I see one guy in there all the time selling timetables.
Model Railroader had a niffty article a few years back on how to built a digital speedometer car that showed how fast, in scale MPH the model was going.
Stay Frosty, come back soon,
Ed

[Mookie]

Toronto - another lady for our group - that makes 3 of us now, that I know of. Welcome.

Gentlemen, hopefully we are going to get a better balance on this committee!

Jen

[JoeKoh]

always hold the (forum)door open for a lady.
stay safe
joe

[edblysard]

Rule 10 for entering Texas.
Any references to "corn fed" when talking about our women will get you jack-slapped, by our women.
Rule 5: Every person in a pickup truck waves. It's called being friendly. Try to understand the concept.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[JeremyB]

Hi Ed

I just wanted to tell you thanks.Your the only one that helps me to my questions all the time.I know that when i have a question your the one i can turn to for the right answer.so thanks again.
Jeremy

[JeremyB]

that's okay,all i needed was some prototypical speeds that i could apply to my HO scale CN & CP Layout.talk to you later.
Jeremy

[edblysard]

Your welcome,
Dont let the playground fight scare you away, you can get most of your questions answered here, so stick around.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[edblysard]

Kevs answer should be right up your alley.
Later gator...
Ed

[mvlandsw]

QUOTE: Originally posted by JeremyB

I JUST ASKED THIS QUESTION SO I COULD KNOW WHAT PROTOTYPICAL SPEEDS THAT I COULD ADD TO MY LAYOUT.NOTHING MORE........SO THANKS FOR THE HELP..

I remeber reading somewhere about a sign on a country crossing along a high speed rail line. It would be a good conversation piece on a model railroad and might make someone think about trying to beat a train. The sign said "Trains go over this crossing at up to ninety mph ------- whether you are on it or not."

[Anonymous]

JeremyB--

Here's another rule of thumb that might be helpful. For crossovers and switches, take the frog number (i.e., #6, #9, etc.) and multiply it by 2--that's the max speed through it. So a powered #16 on a main line siding would be good for about 30 mph but a #11would be good for only about 20, assuming they are lined and tamped and in acceptable cross-level. Now on a model, you'll have to cheat a little because the curves are tighter and the frog number's lower than on the prototype. But then, think about it, a mile is a difficult thing to model in HO (5280'/87) and only a little bit easier in N. So don't worry, be happy!

I notice you are from CA but don't say where. CalTrans has taken an aggressive position regarding protection of crossings on main lines, with full closure gates and islands on many main and some secondary tracks where they can't eliminate the crossing altogether. Don't expect to see any trains slow down for these, as that's why they were installed-just run track speed if you're on a main track. Also there are very few speed restrictions that aren't track-driven. Follow Ed's good advice and go pick up an employee timetable for the line and era you are modeling. It'll have a wealth of info in it that will help you in a lot of different areas. Or find someone who has one and who will photocopy the appropriate sections for your reference.

Remember, too, not all trains, even of the same type or class, travel at the same speed on the same track. It depends on what is happening at the time. Yard and switching: walking speed. Underpowered and overloaded--slow, Crossing over or going into a siding--slow (see above). There are also speed restrictions for freights running through passenger stations (very relevant for CA, depending on what you model). And on double track Automatic-permissive block (one way traffic on each track) with train running on the wrong track against current of traffic--30 mph max.

And as several people have pointed out--on the real RR, BEWARE, that train is likely traveling a whole lot faster that it looks to you.

Sorry you had to be subjected to the soapbox types.

Let us all know what you come up with. Good hunting.[:)]

[tree68]

One reason engineers must be familiar with their territories is because there is no "one" speed limit. All of the factors mentioned in the above posts may be included in a section of track, meaning that what is mostly a 60 mph section of track may have stretches of lower speeds (ie, for curves, urban areas, etc). Factor in slow orders for maintenance or bad track. If you can find an employees timetable, you will likely see the "permanent" restrictions for the line(s) covered.

Applying that to a model railroad makes operation interesting. Even though you can't tell exactly how fast your model is actually moving, the fact that you can't "set and forget" the throttle will add some realism to your session.

[Anonymous]

Does everyone have to be rude all the time?
Anyway.....The speed Limit for Eastbound & Westbound trains Into & out side of blair is 60 to 70mph.In town it is greatly reduced to 45m.p.h.BNSFfan.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF9838

Does everyone have to be rude all the time?

Huh???????[%-)]