helper engines

[Anonymous]

I'm a flatlander now in KS. The next time I talk to my bud in Gillette, I'll ask. He works a helper regularly.
Ken

[Jackflash]

Ken, I didnt take it that way, thank you, see what
you can find out about this, I believe we would
all like to know, it is interesting. jackflash

[Anonymous]

Jack, I was responding to Wabash's post. I wasn't thrashing you on the DP deal
Ken

[Jackflash]

J I too would like to know more about this,
maybe someone who does will put up a post here
and tell us. jackflash

[wabash1]

in pusher service the engineer is in control of his throttle and independant. but we are conected to brake pipe so incase of train in emergency the power gets cut (pcs) Now with the automatic cut out when the lead unit makes his recovery everything resets at that time. With the brake pipe cut in that is how the pusher knows what the air is doing. In disp power there is no one there so it is controlled by the engineer by radio link.. My real question was who is going to release on the fly when they could be killed by cutting on the fly. and how they bypass the fra ruling that they are not allowed to cut on the fly. the info you have about pushers is good but leave it to me to get technical. couse i wanted to know more.

[Jackflash]

Forget Distributed Power, No I'm sure helper link
is NOT like DP, I was only drawing a parallel, thinking in terms of radio linkage (brake pipe only !!) The engineer would still control his
throttle and independent brake, the engineer on the train BEING helped, could, if need be, via
radio linkage set the helper locomotives into
emergency, knocking down power and applying the
brakes on the helper consist (all above is a
educated guess at best, forget DP) jackflash

[Anonymous]

I'll tell you what I know. My knowledge is limited.
1) Helper link is not the same as dist power. The lead unit does not control the helper throttle (I don't think so anyway). I do know that since there is no physical trainline between the train and helper there are no emergencies when cut off.
2)on dist power consists, it still takes 60 sec. for the PCS to reset on the lead and the remote, when the lead starts charging and the remote sences brake pipe pressure, then it will begin charging as well, so you are charging from both ends.
3)As far as I know dist power cannot be cut off on the fly. You can from a stop put the lead consist in setout mode and remain linked (for adding/removing power to the lead consist. The lead unit, however cannot be changed without unlinking and re setting up DP. Once you come back against your train, you would put the lead unit back in normal mode and you are ready to go. With the exception on a brake test.
4)The brake pipe on the train has never been changed nor has the helper's brake pipe been changed. Not one angle coc has been turned. Fred is still cut in and the helper unit still has control of his brakes. I stated in an earlier post that once dialed in the helper consist mimicks the brake apps. of the train. I spoke out of turn here. It may just be set up to go into emergency if the train does.....I don't know for sure.

[Jackflash]

J. I have never seen helper link, I know nothing
about it, as for DP trains, after an emergency
application the brake handle has to stay in the
emergency position a little longer, about 30 sec.
longer than what is normal, but, once the system
is re-set recharging is faster because the brake
pipe is being supplied with air from not only
the head end, but each DP locomotive in the train.
With DP whenever a cut is made in the train the
engineer has to set the controls to the "SET OUT"
mode, if he dosent do this both sides of the cut
will go into emergency, with DP you would never
cut off on the fly, I was only drawing a parallel
with distributed power, meaning it probably was
radio controled, the helper link was probably
set up to receive radio signals from the HOT
device on the train being helped, most likely,
when helper link pulls the pin on the helper
loco. it also returns "cut in" brake status on the
helper loco. (remember, with the brakes set to
lead-cut out you still have independent brakes)
like I said I know nothing at all about how helper
link works all this is just guessing
One last thing concerning FRA, only the lead engine is suppose to supply air to the train, but
with distributed power all DP locomotives supply
the brake pipe ( and reduce it too )jackflash

[wabash1]

Not taking pot shots and wont. i can say that with a standard setup. i link the box to the headend. i can go to any other engine and put the number in and get a reading and a link also. this is not suposed to happen but it does. So i can say that you are correct in getting a reading. The real question is the fra says that all train air is operated by the lead unit. so here are the questions

1) If the lead loco controls the air then when you cut awy on the fly does the helper go into emergency. (i am not sure how dist power works totaly)

2)How fast is recovery of the air system of a dist power consist.

3) is there a exception to distributed power on cutting on the fly

4)who is the people foolish enough to cut on the fly with out testing their air brakes or being in control of braking system after being cut away on a mountain side

I have and do work pusher service (not fun) and from what been said here it is not safe. pushers are not safe. I am aware of the basic of dist power but this seems way out of line.

[Anonymous]

Will do, Jack. I have some buddies that have their recalls in for the Powder River. When they mark up, I will have them find out the skinny. I appreciate you guys not taking shots at me because of my lack of knowledge on the subject.
Ken

[Jackflash]

Ken, I know you are right, helper link is a trade name, I've seen it advertised in industry magazines I also dont know how it works, but I'm sure its something like distributed power (radio-linked) just like fred, when an emergency application is made, the radio signal is received
by helper link, and the application is duplicated
on the helper consist. As far as uncoupling,
a small air ram solonoid or hydraulic release
to lift the pin on the locomotive coupler would do it, when and if you find out for sure how it works you can make a post here and explain it to us. jackflash

[Anonymous]

P.S. The device was located on the rear platform, just above the drawbar. I only have seen it as we pulled by the helper. As far as initiating a rear end emergency, our fred was still cut in and armed. Like I say, there are better qualified people to answer these questions than me........Where I reside now, I don't see any helpers, otherwise I would look. I seldom see the road.
Ken

[Anonymous]

Wabash and Jackflash, if I told you what exactly went on, I would be lying. All that I know is that the helpers would attach to our crew, tone dial into (our Fred freq, thats what I was told), we would do a set and release, and away we would go. I never worked a helper on the Powder river, I won't see that for about 20 years, so I cannot tell you the nuts and bolts of it. I do know for a fact that it is called helper link and we would cut off on the fly. The helper crew would radio us on the head end and tell us that they were cut off. They never physically cut in air, went between or disconnected fred, we still showed pressure at the rear. Sorry guys, I wi***hat I could tell you more.
Ken

[Jackflash]

J, I too want to hear this, I've read something
about this somewhere, dont remember where though,
my guess is it works something like distributed
power, except it only takes control of the brake
pipe (not the whole locomotive system) as far as
pulling the pin, heck a rope hanging out the window would work, but I'm sure its something
else, jackflash

[wabash1]

Ok then a few questions.

1) If you dial into another eot then how does it link up to your hot device.

2) how is this device cut in to your brake pipe to dump air if the engineer wants a emergency application from the rear.

3)how do they cut on the fly with a automatic pin puller where is this device located who operates it.

4) how does the bnsf get away with the fra rule of no cutting away on the fly. there is more but it can wait til these are answered.

[Anonymous]

On the BNSF, we have helper link. They dial into our FRED and the brake pipe pressure is mimicked on the helper unit(s). They also cut on the fly. Pretty slick, they even have automatic pin pullers.

[Anonymous]

Agreed Wabash! Wow, as much as we lose FRED comm, we would be pullin' em in two all of the time! That would really suck! Comm loss and pssssssst!

[wabash1]

Jenny i forgot the other part of the statement when i was going on about eot. The engines on the rear that are in pusher service or in distributed power the brakes are cut out and controled from the train line. In years past the pushers use to cut and run on the fly, but after serveral accedents where the train would go into emergency the enginere on the pusher wouldnt know this and keep the power to it until the engines would go under the rear car. killing who ever was on there. The FRA made it manditory to cut the air in on the power so if the train went into emergency the power would shut down. So when the pusher got the train over the hill, they stop and rehang the eot.( hence the yellow thingy on side of engine).As far as a marker goes the rear headlight on dim is considered a marker.

[wabash1]

Dru if i understand what you are saying if a end of train device loses comunication with the head end it figures that the train come apart and puts the train in emergency. If this is what you are saying then you are totally wrong. IN short a end of train device simply reads what the brake pipe pressure is sends this info back to the head end. when it gets dark it turns its light on and when it gets daytime it turns its light off. all eot have reflectors on them to take the place of the flashing red light if the battery goes dead or something else fails. Now if there is comm loss (communication failers) due to going thru tunnels or anything else that would keep the head end from talking to the rear end , all you get is a light that says communication failure. the only way you get a eot to dump the air from the rear is for the engineer to tell it to. this is done if the brake pipe pressure does not come down when applied and the train is not slowing down such as if someone turns a anglecock on us so as only part of the trains brakes apply. or if the box falls off the jar will couse the brakes to go into emergency. this is the only perpose of the end of train device. if you have a failure of the eot then you must run 30mph until you reach next forward point where you either get it fixed or replaced.

[favuprailroadfan]

I'm not for sure if that is the correct freq. or not. I will do some checking and get back with you on that.

Dru

P.S. Do you chat in Yahoo?

[Mookie]

I do have one, but it is a base - we live across the street from a fire department :)

[favuprailroadfan]

Well as you can tell it takes a scanner set to that frequency to pick it up and you have to be within 2 miles of it. So go out and pick up a scanner and have a heyday.

Dru

[edblysard]

H Jenny, not all EOTs have the photocell, the ones we have at the port, to use when we have to run in CTC, dont. All they have is a on/off switch.
Stat Frosty,
Ed

[Mookie]

Dru - it is quiet where I sit, so I just listen for the whistles!

[favuprailroadfan]

Jenny, there is one more thing. You can always tell when there is a train around that has a EOT. There put out a frequnecy that is jsut theirs.

463.875 (please correct me if I'm wrong on that, but I think thats it.
Dru

[favuprailroadfan]

Jenny, The EOT's are fairly simple if you think about. Now BNSF might require EOT's to flash all the time but the fed's don't deem it necessary. Yes, they are light sensitive. What the EOT does is this. It simply moniters air pressure in the train line, There is a little display on it that shows the brake pipe pressure. It sends a signal to the loco every 3 seconds or something like that. If there is constant communication, everything runs as it should. However, if com. is lost, the EOT will assume there is a break in to and dump all the air. Now the two way are differant. Cab is correct. The FRA has implemented a rule for Cajon Pass in Cali. All trains must have two way devices when going down Cajon. I have been to Cajon 4 times and I see why things can and do get away. Grades of 2.6 up to 3%. This classic railroading, big BNSF intermodels with 6 units on it grinding uphill at 8 mph. On the decent down, trains must go over 10 mph. As a recommendation, if anybody ever gets the chance to go see, it is worth the trip. I have seen Tehachapi, but it was in the early morning hours. Really didn't get to the see the loop, that really made me mad. :( Hope this helps.


Laters, Dru

[Mookie]

Since I am not allowed out after dark :), I only see trains during full daylight. We are on BNSF only and 95% of this is coal trains. They have always had an EOT and they are always flashing.
Maybe BNSF regulation?

[edblysard]

Hi Cab and Jenny,
EOTs do not need to show the red lamp in daylight, They do need to work, in that they must be able to apply a emergency brake reduction if needed, and they are tested for this before a train may depart the initiating terminial. Most EOTs have a photocell that turns the flashing lamp on after dusk, like a city streetlamp. There is a difference between a EOT, and a marker. A marker need be nothing more that a red flag, stuck in the coupler knuckel and may be used if the train is going to travel 20 miles or less, in daylight, as in yard to yard transfer service.
Although I can't speak for all short line or terminial roads, I can tell you we do not have to have red end markers or EOTs on our trains here at the Port, unless the train is going to enter joint trackage with the UP, which is CTC trackage. We can do this because, A: we operate under RTC, radio traffic control, and B: we have no "main" line track, even though we have 406 miles of trackage, with 32 miles of running rail on the south side of the Houston ship channel, and 31 miles on the north. Because all of our trackage is FRA exempt, and all of it is considered within yard limits, the max speed we may travel is 20 mph.(thats what the FRA exemption means) Any foreign crews who operates over our trackage must either be familar with our trackage and RTC, and have been here before, or they must pick up a pilot to guide them. Because most belt and terminal lines are basicly doing nothing but yard to yard, and industry switching, the EOT requirement is not applied.
As for street level rail, I can tell you the new comuter light rail being installed in Houston, down Main street, will require the trains to have functional brake lights, just like a automobile, because they will be sharing the street with cars. As for the other rules, with the exception of some of the radio rules, and the EOT exemption, almost all the same rules apply to short lines, terminal roads, and class 1.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Jackflash]

The EOT marker light is required to work at night
and during inclement weather(there is a light sensitive device inside that turns the flashing
light on and off) If there is a caboose on the train and it is manned and has radio contact with
the head end, a two way EOT is NOT required.
All railroads big or small, that are part of the
general railroad system (physically connected
to each other) operate by the same federal rules,
Code of federal regulations (CFR)Title 49.
Not all trains are required to have a two way EOT
For one thing, there cannot be any seveer grades
two percent I think, over two miles in length,
have less than 4000 trailing tons, and be a train
local in nature, such as a work train, local road
switcher, ect. this kind of train is authorized
to operate at normal timetable track speed, other
trains such as through freight, coal, intermotal
ect, must reduce speed to 30 MPH if it loses radio contact with its EOT for sixteen and a half
minutes (at the end of that time, if communication
is not restored train must reduce speed to 30 MPH)
jackflash
two way EOT