helper engines

[Mookie]

Our coal trains often have helper engines at the very rear. Do they need an EOT device also? Haven't seen one yet, so probably not, but why not?

Hey Cabforward, how am I doin'?

:)

Jen

[Jackflash]

Are you talking about manned helpers or distributed power locomotives ? in either case the
rules allow running without a two-way EOT, as far
as rear end markers are concerned, the rear facing
headlight turned on dim is the rear of train marker (there are some red light devices that
plug into the MU receptical on a distributed power
rear locomotive to give a red light to the rear
of the train, this is a marker only, indicating
the rear of train, so far I,ve only seen these
two times they are not on all DP trains, mostly
you'll see the rear light on dim (no EOT)
jackflash

[favuprailroadfan]

yes he is correct. As long as the rear light is on dim, then an EOT is not needed. Since all the air pressure is controlled and monitered by the rear loco, then FRED is not needed. I have seen EOT on some DPU's though. Manned helpers do not require them, this is a very good question.

Dru

[Mookie]

As I figured. They are always distributed power and the headlights are always on. These are coal trains. But you confirmed what I suspected.

Thanx

Jen

[Mookie]

which brings up another question - how much does the EOT actually do. The answers are saying it is a light device, but I suspect it may do something else, also. And if it does, can you get that same thing from an engine? Make sense?

Jen

[cabforward]

doing very well.. i do think it's pronounced 'hepper' engine.. people should always ask for 'hep' if they need it.. 'hepper' engines hep trains get over the hump.. i git bye with a leedle hep from my frens'.. john lemmon wrote thet..

[Mookie]

:) This is a real knee-slapper! Thanx for your hep!

Jen

[DTomajko]

Jenny, an EOT also monitors the brake pipe pressure in the train line and transmits the information to a reciever in the locomotive.The reciever is programmed to the code of the EOT,(which is noted on the transmitter)the engine only recieves the data from its EOT and not from any others.In order to save battery life,most EOTs that I've seen only operate the flashing light in low-light or darkness,(at least on the former Conrail lines).Also,I believe that the FRA requires EOTs to be 2-way,which means that it can receive a signal to apply the brakes from the rear of a train.This type of EOT has been in use in Canada for many years.The old EOTs transmitted only.You can hear EOT signals at 457.9375Mhz on a scanner,(just a couple of beeps & squacks ever 5 secs. or so),and since the range is only 3 miles(+ or -),you can tell if a train is near.By the way,NS also uses EOT tuned to 161.115Mhz,(you know that they just have to be different).Also,manned rearend helpers still have EOTs between the engines and the last car.On Conrail's Pittsburgh line,the rear helpers weren't cut into the train air supply so that they could cut away "on the fly",and the train could continue on without stopping.Obviuosly,mid-train & DPU helpers are in the trainline.I don't know if headend helpers were cut into the air or not,(Conrail wouldn't normally push on light trains like Intermodal or empty hoppers).I hope this helped a little. Stay safe & enjoy yourself,DT,Pa.

[Mookie]

this helps a lot! I know I have read some of this in Trains Magazine, but I am always so sleepy when I try to read it, I don't retain it as well.

Plus I push a computer around rather than an engine/train and don't work with it all the time.

Anyway - I remember reading that a manned helper would have an EOT in front of it since it would be cutting off. I thought at the time - how smart of them!

And out here in the wide open spaces - we don't need a scanner to know a train is close, we listen for the whistle! Pathetic isn't it!

[cabforward]

let me get this straight-- EOTs need not work in broad daylight? does this policy incude all freight trains? does it work for cabooses, if used?

are there great difference in rules that apply to class 1s but are waived for short lines and terminals? ex: crew scheduling; operating on public r-o-w (street rail)..

[Jackflash]

The EOT marker light is required to work at night
and during inclement weather(there is a light sensitive device inside that turns the flashing
light on and off) If there is a caboose on the train and it is manned and has radio contact with
the head end, a two way EOT is NOT required.
All railroads big or small, that are part of the
general railroad system (physically connected
to each other) operate by the same federal rules,
Code of federal regulations (CFR)Title 49.
Not all trains are required to have a two way EOT
For one thing, there cannot be any seveer grades
two percent I think, over two miles in length,
have less than 4000 trailing tons, and be a train
local in nature, such as a work train, local road
switcher, ect. this kind of train is authorized
to operate at normal timetable track speed, other
trains such as through freight, coal, intermotal
ect, must reduce speed to 30 MPH if it loses radio contact with its EOT for sixteen and a half
minutes (at the end of that time, if communication
is not restored train must reduce speed to 30 MPH)
jackflash
two way EOT

[edblysard]

Hi Cab and Jenny,
EOTs do not need to show the red lamp in daylight, They do need to work, in that they must be able to apply a emergency brake reduction if needed, and they are tested for this before a train may depart the initiating terminial. Most EOTs have a photocell that turns the flashing lamp on after dusk, like a city streetlamp. There is a difference between a EOT, and a marker. A marker need be nothing more that a red flag, stuck in the coupler knuckel and may be used if the train is going to travel 20 miles or less, in daylight, as in yard to yard transfer service.
Although I can't speak for all short line or terminial roads, I can tell you we do not have to have red end markers or EOTs on our trains here at the Port, unless the train is going to enter joint trackage with the UP, which is CTC trackage. We can do this because, A: we operate under RTC, radio traffic control, and B: we have no "main" line track, even though we have 406 miles of trackage, with 32 miles of running rail on the south side of the Houston ship channel, and 31 miles on the north. Because all of our trackage is FRA exempt, and all of it is considered within yard limits, the max speed we may travel is 20 mph.(thats what the FRA exemption means) Any foreign crews who operates over our trackage must either be familar with our trackage and RTC, and have been here before, or they must pick up a pilot to guide them. Because most belt and terminal lines are basicly doing nothing but yard to yard, and industry switching, the EOT requirement is not applied.
As for street level rail, I can tell you the new comuter light rail being installed in Houston, down Main street, will require the trains to have functional brake lights, just like a automobile, because they will be sharing the street with cars. As for the other rules, with the exception of some of the radio rules, and the EOT exemption, almost all the same rules apply to short lines, terminal roads, and class 1.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Mookie]

Since I am not allowed out after dark :), I only see trains during full daylight. We are on BNSF only and 95% of this is coal trains. They have always had an EOT and they are always flashing.
Maybe BNSF regulation?

[favuprailroadfan]

Jenny, The EOT's are fairly simple if you think about. Now BNSF might require EOT's to flash all the time but the fed's don't deem it necessary. Yes, they are light sensitive. What the EOT does is this. It simply moniters air pressure in the train line, There is a little display on it that shows the brake pipe pressure. It sends a signal to the loco every 3 seconds or something like that. If there is constant communication, everything runs as it should. However, if com. is lost, the EOT will assume there is a break in to and dump all the air. Now the two way are differant. Cab is correct. The FRA has implemented a rule for Cajon Pass in Cali. All trains must have two way devices when going down Cajon. I have been to Cajon 4 times and I see why things can and do get away. Grades of 2.6 up to 3%. This classic railroading, big BNSF intermodels with 6 units on it grinding uphill at 8 mph. On the decent down, trains must go over 10 mph. As a recommendation, if anybody ever gets the chance to go see, it is worth the trip. I have seen Tehachapi, but it was in the early morning hours. Really didn't get to the see the loop, that really made me mad. :( Hope this helps.


Laters, Dru

[favuprailroadfan]

Jenny, there is one more thing. You can always tell when there is a train around that has a EOT. There put out a frequnecy that is jsut theirs.

463.875 (please correct me if I'm wrong on that, but I think thats it.
Dru

[Mookie]

Dru - it is quiet where I sit, so I just listen for the whistles!

[edblysard]

H Jenny, not all EOTs have the photocell, the ones we have at the port, to use when we have to run in CTC, dont. All they have is a on/off switch.
Stat Frosty,
Ed

[favuprailroadfan]

Well as you can tell it takes a scanner set to that frequency to pick it up and you have to be within 2 miles of it. So go out and pick up a scanner and have a heyday.

Dru

[Mookie]

I do have one, but it is a base - we live across the street from a fire department :)

[favuprailroadfan]

I'm not for sure if that is the correct freq. or not. I will do some checking and get back with you on that.

Dru

P.S. Do you chat in Yahoo?

[wabash1]

Dru if i understand what you are saying if a end of train device loses comunication with the head end it figures that the train come apart and puts the train in emergency. If this is what you are saying then you are totally wrong. IN short a end of train device simply reads what the brake pipe pressure is sends this info back to the head end. when it gets dark it turns its light on and when it gets daytime it turns its light off. all eot have reflectors on them to take the place of the flashing red light if the battery goes dead or something else fails. Now if there is comm loss (communication failers) due to going thru tunnels or anything else that would keep the head end from talking to the rear end , all you get is a light that says communication failure. the only way you get a eot to dump the air from the rear is for the engineer to tell it to. this is done if the brake pipe pressure does not come down when applied and the train is not slowing down such as if someone turns a anglecock on us so as only part of the trains brakes apply. or if the box falls off the jar will couse the brakes to go into emergency. this is the only perpose of the end of train device. if you have a failure of the eot then you must run 30mph until you reach next forward point where you either get it fixed or replaced.

[wabash1]

Jenny i forgot the other part of the statement when i was going on about eot. The engines on the rear that are in pusher service or in distributed power the brakes are cut out and controled from the train line. In years past the pushers use to cut and run on the fly, but after serveral accedents where the train would go into emergency the enginere on the pusher wouldnt know this and keep the power to it until the engines would go under the rear car. killing who ever was on there. The FRA made it manditory to cut the air in on the power so if the train went into emergency the power would shut down. So when the pusher got the train over the hill, they stop and rehang the eot.( hence the yellow thingy on side of engine).As far as a marker goes the rear headlight on dim is considered a marker.

[Anonymous]

Agreed Wabash! Wow, as much as we lose FRED comm, we would be pullin' em in two all of the time! That would really suck! Comm loss and pssssssst!

[Anonymous]

On the BNSF, we have helper link. They dial into our FRED and the brake pipe pressure is mimicked on the helper unit(s). They also cut on the fly. Pretty slick, they even have automatic pin pullers.

[wabash1]

Ok then a few questions.

1) If you dial into another eot then how does it link up to your hot device.

2) how is this device cut in to your brake pipe to dump air if the engineer wants a emergency application from the rear.

3)how do they cut on the fly with a automatic pin puller where is this device located who operates it.

4) how does the bnsf get away with the fra rule of no cutting away on the fly. there is more but it can wait til these are answered.

[Jackflash]

J, I too want to hear this, I've read something
about this somewhere, dont remember where though,
my guess is it works something like distributed
power, except it only takes control of the brake
pipe (not the whole locomotive system) as far as
pulling the pin, heck a rope hanging out the window would work, but I'm sure its something
else, jackflash

[Anonymous]

Wabash and Jackflash, if I told you what exactly went on, I would be lying. All that I know is that the helpers would attach to our crew, tone dial into (our Fred freq, thats what I was told), we would do a set and release, and away we would go. I never worked a helper on the Powder river, I won't see that for about 20 years, so I cannot tell you the nuts and bolts of it. I do know for a fact that it is called helper link and we would cut off on the fly. The helper crew would radio us on the head end and tell us that they were cut off. They never physically cut in air, went between or disconnected fred, we still showed pressure at the rear. Sorry guys, I wi***hat I could tell you more.
Ken

[Anonymous]

P.S. The device was located on the rear platform, just above the drawbar. I only have seen it as we pulled by the helper. As far as initiating a rear end emergency, our fred was still cut in and armed. Like I say, there are better qualified people to answer these questions than me........Where I reside now, I don't see any helpers, otherwise I would look. I seldom see the road.
Ken

[Jackflash]

Ken, I know you are right, helper link is a trade name, I've seen it advertised in industry magazines I also dont know how it works, but I'm sure its something like distributed power (radio-linked) just like fred, when an emergency application is made, the radio signal is received
by helper link, and the application is duplicated
on the helper consist. As far as uncoupling,
a small air ram solonoid or hydraulic release
to lift the pin on the locomotive coupler would do it, when and if you find out for sure how it works you can make a post here and explain it to us. jackflash

[Anonymous]

Will do, Jack. I have some buddies that have their recalls in for the Powder River. When they mark up, I will have them find out the skinny. I appreciate you guys not taking shots at me because of my lack of knowledge on the subject.
Ken