Re: Is Being a Railfan Un-American?

[dougwood]

I am not sure if any other readers noticed the irony but I found it very interesting that the April edition of Trains included the Railfan Article, the Map showing the locations of the major classification yards, and the article on the New York City 53rd Subway Tunnel. All three articles contained information which could be interpretted in many ways.

As most individuals are discovering, the events of the last two years is redefining our society and also the "freedoms" we have been accustomed to. Unfortunately, the events of the past two years may result in the lessening of the "freedoms" we once enjoyed. I agree with the thoughts of Mr. Bradley; organizations who strive to coordinate and pre-clear trips to view the railroad infrastruce will probably more successful than the single individual who run a greater risk of answering to concerned railroad security and law enforcement as to the pourpose of the photographic visit.

Unfortunately the times have changed and we all must become more careful.

Douglas Johnson
Anchorage, Alaska

[edblysard]

I agree wholehaertedly with you, and suggest passive resistance to who ever attempts to force you off public property. But its a bad idea to "pick" a fight with a cop, they alwasy win the first round. But as to signing a waiver, thats standerd railroad pratice, to have you sign something that agrees with what they want, ask any injured railroader. The man in question cant sign away his right to stand on public property, nor his rights in any instance where he hasnt been charges with a crime, or convicted of a crime. Its just the way railroads intimidate people. Unless its a order from a court of law, its just a piece of paper, with no contractual obligation, as it was signed under duress. Any half baked law school washout could get any charges stemming from that "paper" thrown out of court in a heartbeat.
Stand your ground, its you right.Stay Frosty
Ed

[edblysard]

Thanks, Pete,
And we dont mind answering questions, just wait till we take a break. Most of us are approachable, and dont mind fans in the least. But, as you so well pointed out, our jobs is hard and dangerous. In feb, 2003, within a four week period, four of us were killed, ages 34, 37, 50 and 57, at four diffrent locations. Overall, these guys had a lifetimes worth of experience, one had 30+ years, but none of them new to the job. So if the beast can bite them, it can bite anyone.
Thanks again,
Ed

[Soo2610]

Stephan, In reading your post it doesn't sound right. However, several questions come immediately to mind. How close to the tracks were you? Were you on public or private property and what were you doing between trains? Take a look at some of Ed's posts from Houston. He gives a darn good perspective from the railroaders point of view and makes a lot of sense. I have only been stopped and questioned once in many years of railfanning and it was admittedly my own fault. I had a friend of my son along on the trip and he was starting to get bored and decided to balance walk the rails by a remote controlled switch. The gal in the control tower reported him as she should have and we were soon having a conversation with a railroad detective. He was nice enough about it and basically told us to stay off the tracks and enjoy ourselves from a safer vantage point.

[Anonymous]

If anybody wants to make some rail fanning trips that are legal, why not just use the phone book and actually call the railroads? Nobody ever seems to use the phone book anymore. At times I've seen signs posted near some larger railroad facilities with phone numbers to call for visitors info. They may not all be open to the public, but I imagine if you call the railroads directly you can get some useful and legal help as well as insights for rail fanning. I'm reading how a lot of people are just assuming they can just walk right up a few feet from a track and plop down a camera because somebody somewhere else did it and they assume it's ok. It's not. Just pull out the phone book and call to get the facts people. You might get yourselves some good railroad contacts that maybe able to get you some better railroad access to enjoy your rail fan trips. Just a common sense thought.
Pete

[wabash1]

Ed

Thanks for backing me up but the just of the matter is more than not wanting my picture taken. when these guys take pictures of us that is evidence against us. one guy said if he cant work by the rules he should quit. well here is some basic rules that i bet he would break that would get us fired if he took a picture

1) No smoking. yes it is a bad habit but if you smoke you cant do it in engines cars buildings that the railroads own or lease including the cabs we ride in to and from trains.

2)Any one cought in a slumped position with eyes open or closed will be regarded as sleeping and fired.

3) throwing any burning matter from a train that is not in conjuction with its operation is considered a dismissle offense. its fine to throw a fussee out but not a cigarette.

4) you can not read anything that is not railroad related time table rule books are fine a newspaper magazine or other material will get you fire


Sit in a siding for 3 hrs and tell me what you are going to do. a conductor will get the chance to walk around sometimes the engineer will get to go walking to but not often. other than that no radio or tv or anything to read. and dont go to sleep or lean back. pretty simple there is more but i wont bore anyone with the facts. have a great day

[edblysard]

Hi Stephan,
So you were 16 or so when this happened? You didnt say how close to the rails you were, but a guess would have you and your friends closer than the railroad crews liked. You also didnt state if you got your camera back or not. And if I remember being 16, I can bet you and your friends were not the most cooperative young men with the cops. Now, before you get your shorts all wadded up, I agree, it wasnt fair, but, if you were too close for comfort, there is a good reason we dont want you near the tracks. It has nothing to do with not liking fans, and everything to do with safty. I wi***his forum had a place for photos, so I could post one of the bulkhead flat we found out in our storage yard. The load of pipe had shifted forward, and all the metal bands had broken, and were hanging off the sides. It was discovered the hard way, when a crew pulled that track, at night, the switchman was standing to close, checking car #s and looking for hand brakes, and five or six of these bands got him, he was dragged about sixty feet before he could raido the engineer to stop, and he ended up getting stiches in both legs, a arm, and three or four places on his face.
You didnt give too many details in your gripe, what reason did the bnsf guys and the cops give you and your friends for asking you to leave?
Heres a idea I have been trying to get across to a lot of fans. Find out who the superintendent for the district is, call him or go see him, and explain who you are, and what you want to do, namely take photos and railfan his railroad. You may be surprised with what he will allow you to do. As long as you make a pro-active effort, and show him your not a threat to his railroad or crews, and are not going to place yourself in harms way and get hurt or killed on his property, most railroaders dont mind fans at all. But, when you show up, stand close to the tracks, well, we get worried about that. Look at it from our point of view, how do your think the crew would feel if your, or one of your friends got hung up on a dragging chain, or those metal bands? Or worse, a shifted load or high wide load snuck up on you and one of you got killed. I have only been railroading 6 years, and so far, I have had to watch the cops clean up three fatalities.
It stays with you long, long time.
And trust me, your attitude and actions now can determine you success rairfanning later. Make friends of the bnsf cops, and make friends of the district super, and these guys will make sure you have good time watching trains. Make enemies out of the same guys, and they will harrass you every single chance they get.
I know, your 18, and they are cops, you not suppost to trust or like them, its against the rules, but try and see. Whats the worst they can do, tell you to leave? They already did that. But look at the other side of the issue, who knows, you may get lucky..
Stay Frosty
Ed

[edblysard]

Wabash, what I would do in a sideing for 3 hours is smoke a pack, take a nap, and hope the trainmaster was off somewhere else hassleing someone else. We cant smoke in our cabs, buildings, ect. Like breathing diesel fumes, brake shoe dust, and sand dust all day is ok, but a cigarette isnt...and our book says in a reclined position, with eyes closed, you will be assumed to be asleep, and fired. And yeah, if we followed every single rule in the GCOR, you could never get your train out of the terminial, much less across the sub...
Every one of us has to decide for himself how far he wants to take the rules, and how many he whats to disreguard. For my part, most of the safety rules make sense. Most of the operation rules do too, but there are so many of them written in such a manner that its easy to change their intent to fit any situation where a official want to affix blame to a crew for a incident.
But it still boils down to the fact that you have the right to not have your picture taken, for whateve reason you may have. It dosnt matter why you dont want to be in pictures, it just matters that you dont, period.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

I think that the railroads should do what the government wants to try; with the government they used truck drivers to look for terrorist activity, and I think that the railroads should use the railfans to help protect this mode of transportation. I don't know exactly how they are going to do this but they should think about it; I'm sure that railfans would be willing to help the railroads out.

[louisnash]

Hey Ed,
Great point! I agree wholeheartedly. I don't get there that often as I like, But I used to visit a railyard in Central KY quite often. Back in the 80's not much train traffic at all, line I thought close to abandonment but they along with CSX pulled it together. Anyway couple years ago I visited their yard, one reason because they still have a roundhouse and thats a great photo opp. But before I went I stopped at there office to get permission.They let me go and had me sign a waiver releasing them. they told me what I could do and not do. Mainly don't climb the equipment, and stay away from the guys working (stay outside the roundhouse). I gladly did what they said and everything went fine. They allowed me to do something that most can't and my southern hospitality obliged it. I am planning on taking another trip there soon and I'll do the same. In the 80's I can admit that my grandfather and I would walk their line. Back then they had small trees growing the line(was that bad),they had a couple small tunnels and it has the most scenic land I believe you can see.we didn't have the threat back then as we do now. So if they tell me no I understand. If they tell me to sign a waiver you bet I will, because I understand the risks involved in their company. I mainly take pictures of the land around the tracks and all the rusty cars. Lot of old logos out there still. The big engines don't impress me anymore. it's all a matter of r-e-s-p-e-c-t. It's a short line road that still doesn't have a lot of traffic but they own it, but it really brings you back to a time when we didn't have the fears we have now. a liitle nostalgia,you could say. One more point. I also like to take photos of the old barns with their advertisements on it. You would be surprised how grateful farmers and the such appreciate you asking before you take the picture. The majority are just proud that people ask before you do and just as happy to know someone appreciates the way back when stuff. I may have strayed from the point. It all boils down to respect for others.
Staying Cool
Brian(north KY)

[Anonymous]

That sounds a little bit tough. The reason why you heard that about truckers is that truckers have an excellent form of quickly communication because they all have CB radios in their trucks. That gives them a communication network, and if a few trucks spot something sketchy, there will be a lot of chatter and they'll all cover each other's backs. They can either alert the Police or highway patrol, or those agencies can respond to sketchy activities quickly, highway patrol, etc. There are lots of miles of uncovered railroad out there and a lot less CB carrying railfans to do what you are proposing.

[RudyRockvilleMD]

Certainly, using a scanner to help commit a crime should be illegal. The following states either restrict or prohibit the portable (on public property) or the mobile (in-the-vehicle)use of scanners:
Florida
Kentucky
New York
Michigan
Indiana
Minnesota

[edblysard]

Hi Brian,
Sadly, most of the old barns down here are gone, I do a lot of woodworking, and love to reuse old barn boards. And I like to shoot photos of old mills, and, kinda odd, but old industrial style buildings, with the fancy brickwork. That seems sorta a funny contrast, a building meant to house a processing plant, or a machine shop, or heavy production, but still has wonderful tirm, cornice and brick work.
And your right, most folks dont mind, as long as you ask first. Keep shooting, a lot of the old stuff is fast dissappearing, and what is a snapshot today, may be a artifact in a few years.
Glad you cool,
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

we were on my frends deck at the time of the freghts came thrugh. on his farm he has a drive way that crosses the tracks and a clean vew for a half a mile of the line when 261 came close we were about half way down the drive way (that was where the cameras where)i did get the camera back how ever after we did talk to the sheriff and that picture was a good one though.

[edblysard]

If you guys were no where near the tracks, and on your friends property, then the cops were in the wrong. Glad you got your camera back, and glad your shot turned out. Now that the Sheriff knows who you are and what your up to, go tell the railroad too. Ask them where and when would be a good place and time. Nothing gets a railroad officer more excited than someone asking them what they think, and how they would do something. Like I said, you may make a friend who can get you more than you expected.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

Hi Ed:

Just a little pre- 9/11 story. I live in the Seattle area and the RR Police have been very aggressive here for years. In '97 I was watching trains at Military Road crossing in South Seattle. This has been a favorite spot here for decades. While technically it is railroad property it is also pulic right of way. At the time I was standing on the abandoned MILW right of way at the crossing ( between the BNSF and UP mains and 60'+ from either) waiting for a UP southbound. Up drives a UP cop who stops and tells me to leave. Not only that I had to fill out a UP tresspassing report form and give the guy my SS#. I talked with him further and he said that even though this was a public crossing I was still tresspassing and if he saw me there again he would haul me in. Through all of this I remained calm and cordial - but really! And this was pre 9/11. After that hassle I have avoided railfanning anywhere near downtown seattle. Oh, I cruise around once in a while but I don't hang out. God only knows what would happen to me now. Since then I have stuck to the lines into the mountains - Stevens and Stampede and have had zero problems.
Stay Low/be Narrow
Jon Bentz / Mudhen282

[Anonymous]

I think that the railroads should use the railfans as a resource against terrorists. I'm sure that the railfans would be happy to help out. The RR's should try what the government is doing with the nations truck drivers.

[Anonymous]

The RR police should be able to check people out on public property but they shouldn't be able to ask them to leave.

[Anonymous]

I too have mixed emotions on this issue. In fact until reading the article "IS BEING A RAILFAN UNAMERICAN" just today, I have not given any thought to security problems vs. railfans. Just a few months ago, I stopped to photograph a blue and silver GM EMD demonstrator lashed up with a couple of UP's. The train was stopped. I pulled over on the shoulder of the two lane country highway, got out of my truck, camera in hand and spoke to the engineer as he walked down the track. He was cordual and answered a couple of questions. He saw me take several photos with no visable or verbal concerns. He got back in his loco....I got back in my truck and drove off. So is the UP not as alarmed about people taking photos of their trains? I beleive I will ask them.

[sooblue]

What's the feeling? do most engineers not want their picture taken?
When I'm running a truck crane I usually have someone watching me do my thing. It has never bothered me, on the contrary it gives me a natural high to do something that impresses people. It makes me work smooth. One time I was working beside the local "mental health institution" There were 150 men and woman watching from their rooms, all of them had smiles on their faces. Some of them wanted to help me so bad they crossed the line. Of course I had to stop and relocate them *smile* but it was fun none the less. You can't stop a train to relocate people so I suppose it can be a real bummer.
Do you think some of the engineers really would like to take time to bs and/or show their stuff but wouldn't dare ?
Sooblue

[edblysard]

Yes, they would. It's a ru***o have someone so interested in what you do. And its kinda funny, when you try to explain whos in charge, and when, they never seem to understand. But its a shared responsibility, the engineer is responsable for the safe handleing of the train, and the conducter is responsible for the make up, contents and operation of the whole thing. If they dont work together, nothing gets done. But its a blast to let someone sit in the seat, move the controls, and watch their face when the diesel revs up. Then you tell them they have 1500hp(3000 with a mu) at their fingertips, and man, do they get a big grin on.
But, again, its a matter of safety, and who you can trust, and who you cant.
Stay Frosty, Blue...
Ed

[Anonymous]

we should be railfans no matter what the govmernt thinks.

[Anonymous]

mbensa,
I would strongly recommend you use the word photograph instead of "shoot" or "shot" as in "take a good shot at a train". If a police officer asked you what are you doing, they could interpet "shooting trains" as shooting with a gun even though you have a camera in hand.
Gary

[Anonymous]

Ed said: Everybody and their uncle was crawling all over the docks. Port cops, PTRA cops, Houston PD, even a fed or two. There is a public observation platform at the turning basin end of the houston ship channel, and a fan was trying to get to it to take a few photos. The Port cops turned him away. Weird, because a: its a public place, and B; just about every local news team were down there, filming all of it.


How silly the situation you describe. And hence, the quandary railfans are in: wanting to do the right thing, but knowing something is way out of kilter with the selective enforcement. If it weren’t for situations such as you describe, I’d be inclined to leave this issue alone. For example, what about all the pictures on national TV this past week about the nuclear power plant upstream from NYC as a potential terrorist target? Good grief. Railfans have NO ability to advertise targets on national TV (where they can be recorded internationally via satellite), yet law enforcement is worried about railfans?

To wit, the press folks had press badges, yes? And their employer has lawyers to challenge enforcement agencies if denied access to public areas. Railfans don't have the backing of any legal organization and hence don't enjoy the same 1st Amendment relationship with law enforcement agencies as does the media. I am rather chagrined to conclude it might take a court case to bring this to closure. That means a railfan will have to initiate the proceeding.

As for an ID card, we already carry driver’s licenses from which police can learn most anything they need to know. An ID card (a license?!!) to take railroad pictures from public property seems improper in our constitutional republic.

As for the national organization I suggested in another post, responders to that post have asked all the questions I was asking to myself. My thought was not to have any special permission or recognition from railroads or law enforcement, but to have the financial ability to employ legal representation…which means a dues paying organization…something that not many railfans are convinced (yet) is needed.

The bottom line is no one feels we should need permission to do (on public property) what we believe we have a constitutionally guaranteed right to do. However, it is sometimes true that rights are violated by law enforcement (intentionally or not) and a proper function of the courts to scrutinize.

The ACLU literature on how to behave if is clear: obey the officer. If you want to pursue the case in court, get the officer’s name and badge number. Write down times, places, dates. And good luck.


Rob
3ri.com

[artpeterson]

Hi James -

ABSOLUTELY agree with you that there is a need to act responsibly, as well as a need to document current operations, as was done during WWII.

Art Peterson, Chicago, IL

[Anonymous]

Look out Ed, U.P. is starting a licensing program to controll use of its trademark. I wouldn't be supprise if they try to sue someone for trademark infringment by photographing their logo. They're finding more ways to skin a railfan.

G.Setter

[Anonymous]

Hi
Yes Ed it's a big rush.When I helped some railroad guys get some food because they were stuck behind a diabled train(frozen brakes).They let me sit in the cab of a brand new GE Dash-9 locomotive.It was really something when an eastbound passed.It was their way of saying thanks.
take care
Joe

[BRAKIE]

Ed,J about 5 years ago I was out railfanning after a rain of 2 days..I noticed a large boulder laying on the tracks,I ran to my car and got 2 fusees, I dropped one about 1,000' from the boulder and use the other one to stop a on coming train by waving a wash out.The crew stopped and I told them of the problem,they in turn radioed it in to the DS...Needless to say the crew was very THANKFUL that I flagged them.
J,The engineer told me they was running 40mph..Now if they blew by me like you said you would do I could have video the wreck and sent it to CNN and the local TV stations...What did I get for this? A Thank you from a very grateful crew..That reward good enough for me..

[Anonymous]

Furthermore, quit cutting corners and screwing around on the job and you won't have to worry about "gittin yerself farred on accounta dem dammed piture takers and whatnot" yuk yuk.

[Anonymous]

And this from one of your own.

Sounds like this guy, from this and other posts I have read of his, should have been farred long ago. Thanks to the union though, probably hasn't met the "negligent homicide" quota.