Photographers becoming a security concern.

[fuzzybroken]

Whoopee-fizz, nothin' to get excited about. Nothing more than people overreacting, and more people overreacting to other people overreacting. Most people know who I am, and where I go, and I also have been "kindly instructed" where not to go! I'll keep taking pictures as I see fit, and deal with any "consequences" as they arise.

Now, if those of you in cheese-land want to discuss the way our government is "protecting" us from evil cold and allergy medicine, now there's a case of government overreaction.

Have a nice day,
-Mark
www.fuzzyworld3.com

[Anonymous]

Ill bet all of you out there that the Feds are watching these Forums.

[PigFarmer1]

Yeah, watch out for Big Brother. Uhh... is that a black helicopter? bnsf, have you ever thought about joining Paranoids Anonymous? Don't you have anything better to do with your time than constantly starting these threads about THE MAN hassling you and your friends??? Lemme guess, THE MAN planted a computer chip in your**** to monitor your every move. It's all part of the conspiracy.

[zardoz]

History will prove which one of us is correct.

[Anonymous]

My new AAA guide to Nebraska says lots of nice things about a huge yard the UP has in N. Platte, Nebraska. It particularly mentioned safe (and elevated) places for individuals and families to take pix, etc.

Is that still in effect? Free viewing and taking of pix? I don't want to bend a westward trip into N. Platte if all I can see is the RR depot museum.

[kevikens]

Funny thing is, about a year ago there was a big flap about New Jersey Transit and its photo permit policy. On another site dedicated to railfanning railfans were wrtiting in about the policy and a police state atmosphere when there appeared a submission from an NJT official who apparently WAS monitoring the website and had a few words about the policy and the members who were wrting in and NJ Sate regulations. I would not totally dismiss the idea that these posting are not being reviewd by someone in Homeland Security. If they can monitor libraries to see who is checking out what, they might very well be monitoring sites like this to see who is listening about railroad security. (If so, really, I am a Native born American who likes apple pie, mom and I fly the American flag every holiday and I think *** Cheyeny is the greatest vice-president we have had for most of this century.)

[Anonymous]

I haven't had the opportunity to hassle a railfan yet, being one of them... and also being a cop. So far, what I have heard has been the usual attitude I run into whenever I "interact" with a member of the general public- "Why are you hassling me?"

And for all those who are worried about this country turning into some kind of power hungry state, go back and look at what happened in World War II. Taking pictures of "strategic installations"- a wild and wooly term if ever there was one- was prohibited. As the war progressed, even the sale of film and photographic paper was limited. I have even seen a photo shot by O. Winston Link- for Model Railroader, I believe- which was shot during the war- of a rail overpass that ended up as a cover photo for the magazine. The caption stated that he had taken the picture very discretely and was concerned he was breaking the law.

No one has even suggested moving all people of Arab descent away from our coasts into the peculiarly American form of concentration camps we stuck the Nisei in.

In point of fact, no one has even considered what the railroads might think about having photos taken "from public property" of THEIR operations. I'm positive that there is a PR flack who gets a migraine every time there's a crossing accident...or where someone, exercising their 1st Amendment rights, takes a picture of a freight train stopped by the trackside McDonald's.

Do we ask permission before taking pictures? I do. I've never had a problem with local law enforcement or railroad employees, when they KNOW what it is I'm doing, and they are aware of the fact I'm there. That's a good exercise of courtesy... and safety.

(As a rule, I generally don't bother the local cops- contrary to popular belief, not all of us are out there parked behind highway signs munching donuts waiting to waddle over and hassle the public. Some of us actually WORK.)

Erik

[bobwilcox]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jimrice4449

I wonder what planet these people who blather on about "a police state" are from. The only posts I've seen where somebody was actually confronted it was a badge heavy boob or a wanabee and was easily resolved without a trip to the gulag or Dachau. If your overactive imagination is causing you to loose sleep at night why not just crawl under the bed where the Gestapo can't find you.

Too put this discussion into some context with the real world-the most interesting railroad cop I ever meet was a KGB guy along the Trans Siberian. He said no photos and I went with the flow.

[gabe]

Erik,

Don't get me wrong, I am not taking issue with what you are saying. But are you really suggesting we ask local law enforcement permission before we rail fan? I have always considered it a matter of courtesy that I don't ask.

(1) If I am not doing anything illegal, I fail to see why my activites would be too much of a bother or a problem to local law enforcement.

(2) As a former prosecutor, I realize that local law enforcment does work for a living and is BUSY, I would think they could care less about my hobby so long as I don't break any laws while doing it.

I have always thought the best way to be courteous to law enforcement is (1) don't trespass or otherwise break the law while railfanning, (2) don't bother law enforcement unless they have something they need to say to you, (3) if law enforcment approaches you, be polite and cooperative, and (4) if the officer tells you to do something you believe you don't have to do, politely ask the officer his authority for his command, follow the officer's commands regardless of his correctness, and take him to court if he made you do something illegally.

Most officers being law abiding people themselves, I don't think I am ever going to have a problem with an officer while rail fanning. Should I run into the rarity of a non-law abiding officer, winking at him in court as the judge rules in my favor and telling the officer I will be mailing the verdit to every defense attorney in town is so much more effective than arguing with the officer on the scene.

As most officers are good people, I would like to think it would never come to this though.

Gabe

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

Ill bet all of you out there that the Feds are watching these Forums.

HAH!

Let em watch. It might actually lighten up thier day to see how some of the people feel about things.

Heck they probably pull our cell phone converstations out of the air in supersecret facilities.

Whatever! When I see a Homeland Security Helicopter touching down over yonder a 4 black SUV's coming onto my land then I might have to worry.

[Anonymous]

Gabe, the question was asked before and answered, but I'll restate the answer I have heard (and given to folks asking permission to do something.)

You are right, it's not neccessary to tell the local cops what you are doing. (Most cops could care less- other business items hold their attention more closely, as you pointed out.) I do ask permission of rail employees when I snap pictures of them. Most wonder why I'm wasting the film, but at least they are aware of me being there and what I'm doing.
And on one occasion (pre 9/11) I was invited up into the cab by a bored engineer doing an air test to see what it looked like. (He even put on a T shirt under his overalls... as a courtesy to my wife.) That comes from asking permission before one does something.

I have also been called on by local industries to figure out why someone is standing outside their fenceline taking pictures of their plant. (One was involved in a lawsuit and very sensitive about their image.) Another felt that the photographer in question had an ax to grind against that company (he did- he was out trying to get photo evidence of pollution.) Neither of those industries were railroads. In both cases, I "hassled" the photographers- one of whom had a press ID- and asked them why they were there.

In neither instance did I leave the comfort and safety of my car, nor did I confiscate film or camera. I did tell the industries concerned who was taking pictures of them and why, as a followup to the original call. They chose not to pursue the matter.

Frankly, if something as stupid as this case made it past my sergeant, the patrol lieutenant, the Chief Deputy AND the Sheriff- all of whom take a real interest in how the Department looks to the people who elect them- I seriously doubt you would get to the point of "winking at the cop" in court. DA's are generally bright people and have a pretty fair idea about the law... and my DA would be happily chewing me out if I brought in "evidence" like a confiscated camera and undeveloped film.

Erik

[gabe]

Erik,

I doubt it would ever get to that case either. I was just alluding to the unlikely event that an officer would do some of the stories described above and on other posts—force a person to leave public property without legal authority, put someone under arrest without PC of criminal activity, etc.

However, should something like that happen, the DA wont have anything to do with it, as a civil 42 U.S.C. 1983 action would likely ensue. Even if the plaintiff doesn't get a lot of damages, it really hurts an officer’s career to lose one of those cases as a good defense attorney knows how to use it to impugn the officer's testimony in the future. The stories of engineers being improperly arrested is a good example of where you will likely see this sort of thing.

Nonetheless, I agree with you. I don't see it ever coming to that—at least too often.

Gabe

[AlcoRS11Nut]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lincoln5390

I wonder what the security man would do if he saw a railfan set up a stool and easel and start painting a picture of a railroad yard or locomotive on his canvas.

probably make up some lame story like he was a "reinasance terrorist" [;)]...SECURITY JUST NEEDS TO LEAVE US ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

Ill bet all of you out there that the Feds are watching these Forums.

HAH!

Let em watch. It might actually lighten up thier day to see how some of the people feel about things.

Heck they probably pull our cell phone converstations out of the air in supersecret facilities.

Whatever! When I see a Homeland Security Helicopter touching down over yonder a 4 black SUV's coming onto my land then I might have to worry.

Actually, you might be surprised. I am not allowed to speak about this on a professional level. But, if you have web access to judicial opinions and a search engine use the words "alias," "trolling," or other words that might pull up an opinion about a government official monitoring a web site for on-line preditors. Your search--if done thoroughly--will find well over 1000 cases, and those are just the ones where there is a conviction, an appeal, and the appeal was published!

In my experience with this sort of thing, websites--like trains--where it is common to have adult interaction with children are typically where the fed and state officials like to troll.

Do I necessarily thing we are being monitored or trolled? No, I think the trolling is usually pretty obvious and easy to spot once you have seen it before.

Nonetheless, no one should be surprised if we were being monitored for child related reasons. For the other reasons given, I would imagine the feds have much more important fi***o fry than anyone on here.

Gabe