Photographers becoming a security concern.

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

Ill bet all of you out there that the Feds are watching these Forums.

HAH!

Let em watch. It might actually lighten up thier day to see how some of the people feel about things.

Heck they probably pull our cell phone converstations out of the air in supersecret facilities.

Whatever! When I see a Homeland Security Helicopter touching down over yonder a 4 black SUV's coming onto my land then I might have to worry.

Actually, you might be surprised. I am not allowed to speak about this on a professional level. But, if you have web access to judicial opinions and a search engine use the words "alias," "trolling," or other words that might pull up an opinion about a government official monitoring a web site for on-line preditors. Your search--if done thoroughly--will find well over 1000 cases, and those are just the ones where there is a conviction, an appeal, and the appeal was published!

In my experience with this sort of thing, websites--like trains--where it is common to have adult interaction with children are typically where the fed and state officials like to troll.

Do I necessarily thing we are being monitored or trolled? No, I think the trolling is usually pretty obvious and easy to spot once you have seen it before.

Nonetheless, no one should be surprised if we were being monitored for child related reasons. For the other reasons given, I would imagine the feds have much more important fi***o fry than anyone on here.

Gabe

[AlcoRS11Nut]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lincoln5390

I wonder what the security man would do if he saw a railfan set up a stool and easel and start painting a picture of a railroad yard or locomotive on his canvas.

probably make up some lame story like he was a "reinasance terrorist" [;)]...SECURITY JUST NEEDS TO LEAVE US ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gabe]

Erik,

I doubt it would ever get to that case either. I was just alluding to the unlikely event that an officer would do some of the stories described above and on other posts—force a person to leave public property without legal authority, put someone under arrest without PC of criminal activity, etc.

However, should something like that happen, the DA wont have anything to do with it, as a civil 42 U.S.C. 1983 action would likely ensue. Even if the plaintiff doesn't get a lot of damages, it really hurts an officer’s career to lose one of those cases as a good defense attorney knows how to use it to impugn the officer's testimony in the future. The stories of engineers being improperly arrested is a good example of where you will likely see this sort of thing.

Nonetheless, I agree with you. I don't see it ever coming to that—at least too often.

Gabe

[Anonymous]

Gabe, the question was asked before and answered, but I'll restate the answer I have heard (and given to folks asking permission to do something.)

You are right, it's not neccessary to tell the local cops what you are doing. (Most cops could care less- other business items hold their attention more closely, as you pointed out.) I do ask permission of rail employees when I snap pictures of them. Most wonder why I'm wasting the film, but at least they are aware of me being there and what I'm doing.
And on one occasion (pre 9/11) I was invited up into the cab by a bored engineer doing an air test to see what it looked like. (He even put on a T shirt under his overalls... as a courtesy to my wife.) That comes from asking permission before one does something.

I have also been called on by local industries to figure out why someone is standing outside their fenceline taking pictures of their plant. (One was involved in a lawsuit and very sensitive about their image.) Another felt that the photographer in question had an ax to grind against that company (he did- he was out trying to get photo evidence of pollution.) Neither of those industries were railroads. In both cases, I "hassled" the photographers- one of whom had a press ID- and asked them why they were there.

In neither instance did I leave the comfort and safety of my car, nor did I confiscate film or camera. I did tell the industries concerned who was taking pictures of them and why, as a followup to the original call. They chose not to pursue the matter.

Frankly, if something as stupid as this case made it past my sergeant, the patrol lieutenant, the Chief Deputy AND the Sheriff- all of whom take a real interest in how the Department looks to the people who elect them- I seriously doubt you would get to the point of "winking at the cop" in court. DA's are generally bright people and have a pretty fair idea about the law... and my DA would be happily chewing me out if I brought in "evidence" like a confiscated camera and undeveloped film.

Erik

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

Ill bet all of you out there that the Feds are watching these Forums.

HAH!

Let em watch. It might actually lighten up thier day to see how some of the people feel about things.

Heck they probably pull our cell phone converstations out of the air in supersecret facilities.

Whatever! When I see a Homeland Security Helicopter touching down over yonder a 4 black SUV's coming onto my land then I might have to worry.

[gabe]

Erik,

Don't get me wrong, I am not taking issue with what you are saying. But are you really suggesting we ask local law enforcement permission before we rail fan? I have always considered it a matter of courtesy that I don't ask.

(1) If I am not doing anything illegal, I fail to see why my activites would be too much of a bother or a problem to local law enforcement.

(2) As a former prosecutor, I realize that local law enforcment does work for a living and is BUSY, I would think they could care less about my hobby so long as I don't break any laws while doing it.

I have always thought the best way to be courteous to law enforcement is (1) don't trespass or otherwise break the law while railfanning, (2) don't bother law enforcement unless they have something they need to say to you, (3) if law enforcment approaches you, be polite and cooperative, and (4) if the officer tells you to do something you believe you don't have to do, politely ask the officer his authority for his command, follow the officer's commands regardless of his correctness, and take him to court if he made you do something illegally.

Most officers being law abiding people themselves, I don't think I am ever going to have a problem with an officer while rail fanning. Should I run into the rarity of a non-law abiding officer, winking at him in court as the judge rules in my favor and telling the officer I will be mailing the verdit to every defense attorney in town is so much more effective than arguing with the officer on the scene.

As most officers are good people, I would like to think it would never come to this though.

Gabe

[bobwilcox]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jimrice4449

I wonder what planet these people who blather on about "a police state" are from. The only posts I've seen where somebody was actually confronted it was a badge heavy boob or a wanabee and was easily resolved without a trip to the gulag or Dachau. If your overactive imagination is causing you to loose sleep at night why not just crawl under the bed where the Gestapo can't find you.

Too put this discussion into some context with the real world-the most interesting railroad cop I ever meet was a KGB guy along the Trans Siberian. He said no photos and I went with the flow.

[Anonymous]

I haven't had the opportunity to hassle a railfan yet, being one of them... and also being a cop. So far, what I have heard has been the usual attitude I run into whenever I "interact" with a member of the general public- "Why are you hassling me?"

And for all those who are worried about this country turning into some kind of power hungry state, go back and look at what happened in World War II. Taking pictures of "strategic installations"- a wild and wooly term if ever there was one- was prohibited. As the war progressed, even the sale of film and photographic paper was limited. I have even seen a photo shot by O. Winston Link- for Model Railroader, I believe- which was shot during the war- of a rail overpass that ended up as a cover photo for the magazine. The caption stated that he had taken the picture very discretely and was concerned he was breaking the law.

No one has even suggested moving all people of Arab descent away from our coasts into the peculiarly American form of concentration camps we stuck the Nisei in.

In point of fact, no one has even considered what the railroads might think about having photos taken "from public property" of THEIR operations. I'm positive that there is a PR flack who gets a migraine every time there's a crossing accident...or where someone, exercising their 1st Amendment rights, takes a picture of a freight train stopped by the trackside McDonald's.

Do we ask permission before taking pictures? I do. I've never had a problem with local law enforcement or railroad employees, when they KNOW what it is I'm doing, and they are aware of the fact I'm there. That's a good exercise of courtesy... and safety.

(As a rule, I generally don't bother the local cops- contrary to popular belief, not all of us are out there parked behind highway signs munching donuts waiting to waddle over and hassle the public. Some of us actually WORK.)

Erik

[kevikens]

Funny thing is, about a year ago there was a big flap about New Jersey Transit and its photo permit policy. On another site dedicated to railfanning railfans were wrtiting in about the policy and a police state atmosphere when there appeared a submission from an NJT official who apparently WAS monitoring the website and had a few words about the policy and the members who were wrting in and NJ Sate regulations. I would not totally dismiss the idea that these posting are not being reviewd by someone in Homeland Security. If they can monitor libraries to see who is checking out what, they might very well be monitoring sites like this to see who is listening about railroad security. (If so, really, I am a Native born American who likes apple pie, mom and I fly the American flag every holiday and I think *** Cheyeny is the greatest vice-president we have had for most of this century.)

[Anonymous]

My new AAA guide to Nebraska says lots of nice things about a huge yard the UP has in N. Platte, Nebraska. It particularly mentioned safe (and elevated) places for individuals and families to take pix, etc.

Is that still in effect? Free viewing and taking of pix? I don't want to bend a westward trip into N. Platte if all I can see is the RR depot museum.

[zardoz]

History will prove which one of us is correct.

[PigFarmer1]

Yeah, watch out for Big Brother. Uhh... is that a black helicopter? bnsf, have you ever thought about joining Paranoids Anonymous? Don't you have anything better to do with your time than constantly starting these threads about THE MAN hassling you and your friends??? Lemme guess, THE MAN planted a computer chip in your**** to monitor your every move. It's all part of the conspiracy.

[Anonymous]

Ill bet all of you out there that the Feds are watching these Forums.

[fuzzybroken]

Whoopee-fizz, nothin' to get excited about. Nothing more than people overreacting, and more people overreacting to other people overreacting. Most people know who I am, and where I go, and I also have been "kindly instructed" where not to go! I'll keep taking pictures as I see fit, and deal with any "consequences" as they arise.

Now, if those of you in cheese-land want to discuss the way our government is "protecting" us from evil cold and allergy medicine, now there's a case of government overreaction.

Have a nice day,
-Mark
www.fuzzyworld3.com

[miniwyo]

Finally got a chance to listen to the rest of the broadcast, just 1 last thing to add. I would never let my film, or camera equipment be taken by an officer without a search & siezure warrant. The film is technically not in plain sight, so it could possibly not be taken under the plain sight clause.

Getting stopped and questioned does not worry me too much, i am a bit concerned here though, just becasue i know how the local PD overreacts to things.

Just some words for wisdom, Read and know the Bill of Rights that covers this topic, most paticularly, the1st and 4th amendment.

Here are the basic amendments, http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/funddocs/billeng.htm

Planning on being an officer myself someday soon, I will of course, repsond to any call I were to get, but if it were to be somthing of this nature, I would be reasonable and not overreact like some officers would.

[Anonymous]

Life is mostly lived quickly, one second a person is four, the next instant the guy is 65 years old.

When I was growing up, the above mentioned stuff was always associated with commies or fasciates. Its interesting to see that this is now the republics stand on patriotism!

[jimrice4449]

I wonder what planet these people who blather on about "a police state" are from. The only posts I've seen where somebody was actually confronted it was a badge heavy boob or a wanabee and was easily resolved without a trip to the gulag or Dachau. If your overactive imagination is causing you to loose sleep at night why not just crawl under the bed where the Gestapo can't find you.

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFNUT

I still can not see what the peaple checking out photographers are trying to stop.
If I was trying to photograph some thing for an attack I would not stand out in the open with a camera and tripod. I would do it with small camera or a cell phone with a camera so nobody would know what I was doing. Also if I wanted pictures of a major stucture I just would do a web search for them. I tried a Google image search for the George Washington
bridge and got several hundred hits.

Hence my "news item" about the postcards.

Heck, if I want to know what traffic traverses a line, and when, I can just buy a house next to the tracks and NOBODY will be able to question what I'm doing. I'll be sitting in my own yard. If there is a large enough organization behind me, cost won't be an object. Or I can rent a hotel room in the area. You can bet that no one will question my activities, because no one will even know what I'm doing. Darned if I'm going to stand in the middle of a public park with my camera on a tripod, attracting attention. Didn't you notice that guy over there, "reading" the newspaper for the last 4 hours? Or the one who's been pushing his kid on the swing since noon?

Time for another chorus of "For What It's Worth."

[BNSFNUT]

I still can not see what the peaple checking out photographers are trying to stop.
If I was trying to photograph some thing for an attack I would not stand out in the open with a camera and tripod. I would do it with small camera or a cell phone with a camera so nobody would know what I was doing. Also if I wanted pictures of a major stucture I just would do a web search for them. I tried a Google image search for the George Washington
bridge and got several hundred hits.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by halifaxcn

I just listened to the broadcast, some food for thought. That being said, I and this is my own view didn't hear more than a fleeting reference to railfans.

Whether we like it or not our world did change after 9/11. The major problem is not railfans, or photographers or even the cops. It is the media who has taken over and is whipping the masses into near hystria with biased reporting either pro or con depending upon the view they want.

I for one will fight for my rights, for the first time in my life I have made a donation to the ACLU (My wife has done so for years). To many people have died for the freedoms that this Country has or did have.

Just my 2 cents worth

Have a great weekend railfanning!

And for what you have said. You are very correct! I now step down.
BNSFrailfan.

[Anonymous]

I won't worry about it till it happens to me. And I'll bet anything it never does.


mike

[zardoz]

halifaxcn: Bravo!! Good for you. [bow]

HighIron2003ar: I agree with your last post. I am glad you have not been hassled while shooting trains.

But when I am sitting in my red pickup truck, in the middle of the day, with the camera on its tripod next to the truck, and I am in a city park, and some piggie-eyed Barney Fife feels he needs to protect the world from white anglo-saxon terrorists in the middle of Wisconsin as he waddles over to me and has the "authority" (presumed, but not legally) to question me about what I am doing (like, DUH!!), then the cops have too much power and are out of control.

Life was much better when they just hid behind highway billboards and ate donuts.

Please forgive my cynical attitude, but because this country has so many real security issues of relevance (as has been discussed in other forums), it is difficult for me to take these simple-minded people seriously; but because of their badge, and the willingness of the population to tolerate this abuse of power, I must.

[Anonymous]

The media does not whip ME or MY family into near hysteria.

The closest we got to feeling concern was when we watch the United States Marines clear out a iraqi stronghold live on satellite as it happened. We did not want any of those boys hurt.

I find it interesting to see that the media keeps a clean photo set in the USA, not much is made of railfans and really graphic photos can be found on the internet.

I believe that you can take a picture or video of whatever you want, as long you dont trespass. Shooting from a public property is perfectly fine. I have shot trains and such from inside a legally parked car without too much trouble. I dont shoot trains often enough to have any trouble with anyone.

I have been into installations where they ban cameras and recording devices. I have personally witnessed blogs where employees in computer companies have been fired for making pictures of loading docks and trailers (With computers in them) availible on the net in violation of his company rules.

I have cheerfully shot trains out west from the side of the highway and recieved a toot from the whistle or a wave in response. I suspect that some regions people tend to be more "uptight" about others carrying cameras more so than others.

I for one dont intend on stopping the use of camera or camcorder any time soon. I understand the situation and will create a oppertunity to "Shoot" a subject when the time is right. Sorta like hunting a deer. You dont want the Bear stalking you at that time.

[halifaxcn]

I just listened to the broadcast, some food for thought. That being said, I and this is my own view didn't hear more than a fleeting reference to railfans.

Whether we like it or not our world did change after 9/11. The major problem is not railfans, or photographers or even the cops. It is the media who has taken over and is whipping the masses into near hystria with biased reporting either pro or con depending upon the view they want.

I for one will fight for my rights, for the first time in my life I have made a donation to the ACLU (My wife has done so for years). To many people have died for the freedoms that this Country has or did have.

Just my 2 cents worth

Have a great weekend railfanning!

[kevikens]

I live in the Phila. area and I recall these incidents clearly. You know, until recently I have not been much of a fan for NPR or the ACLU but now that it is my ox that is being gored I see these organizations in a new light. I railfan this area intensively and have been accosted by any number of law enforcement types and wannabe G-men. They do not know the law in many cases. Here in NJ NJ Tansit has given rail fans enormous problems even going so far as to try to forbid photos of trains from public streets. today I carry my passport with me to prove my citizenship (don't laugh. Its worked) and a laminated letter from NJT to the ACLU backing off their claims to have the right to control phtography. That too has saved me a couple of times. On only one occasion have I lost my cool with a railroad employee, a trackworker who tried his junior FBI routine on me. When I first tried to patiently point out his error on insisting taking pictures of trains was illegal he threatened to call the cops. I stood my ground and told him to go ahead. Cops never did show up. By the way if had been legitimate law enforcement I would have left out of deference to his authority but I recommend that rail fans as much as possible resist the effort to stifle our interests which go beyond that of a hobby. We are documenting the transport industry and someday our archival photographs will reveal to a generation yet unborn how we once moved people and goods, that is if we don't allow ourselves to be silenced and blinded.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by miniwyo

It s anyone right to take a picture of anywhere or anything, as log as they are on public property. It falls under the first amendment in the freedom of the press clause. Therefore, I will take a picture of basically anything I please from public property, or on private property with written permission .

As you have already have heard,cops don't even care about the First Amendment.
The Amendment is meaningless to them. Alot of cops have already said that.
Just a thought.

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by adrianspeeder
If it ever comes down to photography banning of our beloved hobby, I think we will have other more important things to worry about.
Adrianspeeder

We already do. (see my post above, as well as the links on the site originally provided by BNSF).

[adrianspeeder]

What if an attack happend at night??? put up a curfew?

4x4s have been under the gun long before photography has been since 9-11.

Try to insure one of my modded broncos for the same price of a stock one. Or better yet, insure a modded rig for the price of a stock one and get into an accident.

Any public park or trails have been all but banned from use for any 4x4 for many years now. Private property is about the only place to play. But if the neighbors don't like it, cops can cite you with disturbing the peace.

Try to put up with environmentalist wackos that freak out on you at gas stations, put flyers on my windshield saying im as bad as terrorists , and are darn well trying to get 4x4s banned. (where are these morons during a snowstorm when I volunteer my time and rig transporting nurses and doctorsto hospitals?) .

If it ever comes down to photography banning of our beloved hobby, I think we will have other more important things to worry about.

Adrianspeeder

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by adrianspeeder

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

QUOTE: Originally posted by adrianspeeder

Yeah, so?

Adrianspeeder

Railfan Photographing will be "NO MORE"!
No more Railroad Pictures on the Internet.
We are all prisoners in our country because of our POWER HUNGRY GOVERNMENT!!!!!!!!!!

Again I post:

Yeah, so?

I'm not sure if I envy your naive attitude, or resent it. Apparently you either cannot or will not see what this thread is telling you about how our rights have been devastated by the current administration.

How would you feel if everyone who owned a 4x4 off-road vehicle was considered a potential tresspasser, and had to justify their possession of such a vehicle; or worse yet, were outlawed except for those in government service. Or maybe if modifying a 4x4 vehicle to other than factory standards is prohibited, due to other drivers "safety". My guess is that I would here your cries of indignation way up here in Wisconsin.

You may think that the above example is too far-fetched to even be considered. Most folks would have said that about photography five years ago. What if someday a terrorist does attack a sensitive installation? And what if that terrorist used a modified, over-powered, lift-kit-installed 4x4 to gain access to said installation? Surely you can see the potential for over-reaction by the government towards such vehicles.

While this thread is essentially about photography, it is also about personal freedom, the one thing this country used to have over and above almost everywhere else. I for one am saddened, not only because of what I see happening, but also by the indifference of the people of the United States. As the police state broadens it's grip, more and more people will begin to notice, as their various hobbies and activities are negatively affected. But of course, it is already too late to do anything about it.