What happens when a knuckle breaks on a hill?

[arbfbe]

Yes, I have seen that happen as well. Some of the early end of car cushioning would fail leaving an empty end of the car. Older freight cars sometimes get the entire center sill from the truck bolster to the drawbar taken out when old steel fails. Since there is generally nothing to chain the car up to you have to wait until a train comes from behind if it is on the wrong end and they take the rear of the train back to the last station to set it out. If it is an empty I have heard of the crew wrapping a chain around the end axle of the damaged car and connecting that to the car ahead for furtherence to the next station. That would be pretty risky.

BN was so short of ballast hauling cars when the Powder River Basin was building up they would use old sugar beet hoppers to haul ballast. Though they were plainly stencilled 'Rear End Only' the trainmansters would interpret that to mean that if the train were all rear end only cars that would satisfy the requirement. Then they proceeded to run 75 of these cars loaded to the top with ballast and wondered why the center sills and draft gears were failing on Angora Hill.

[Sterling1]

What if the cushion pocket, the knucle and the drawbar are all pulled out or is that possible?

[Anonymous]

I've never heard engineers dissing the General electric Dash 9's, man I'd like to see what some think of Cn's Dash 840cms. I've heard there not that great, but I've also heard major dislikes for the F series SD50 and 60. on a note about stupidity around trains, I was almot hit by a car that tried beating an eastbound Cn freight afew years ago, the girl driving a neon tried speeding through a red light and racing over the crossing, she got hit in the back right side of the car, even though her 12 month old baby was in the middle of the car, the front couple tore everything holding him down and threw him too the other side of the car, luckily the child survived with no injuries, how often has that happened? but anyways, the train tossed the car to his right as i was walking towards the pedestrian underpass, i was almost crushed because of that stupid broad!.

[ChuckCobleigh]

QUOTE: Originally posted by marklin181


All up we tied up the main illawarra line for almost 8 hrs making paying commuters extremly happy , train control getting a few more grey hairs & some bus drivers very happy as they had to be called out for overtime to replace the numerous surban trains that had to be terminated short of their destination.


Tom

I guess not a g-day, Mate!

[Anonymous]

Broken knuckles, yep have had a few on trains usually the consquence of previous mismanagement . My best effort was on a sunday before xmas in 2002 whit the shops all open for xmas shopping trains full of tired families & I'm on a 4500 ton coal train with a busted knuckle on the 4th waggon back from the 4 engines, the knuckle has 2 previous & obvious cracks in it when it is on the ground but would not have been picked up on examination of the train before leaving on its journey.
The train is sitting on a 1 in 40 grade in the metro area double tracked so we have to wind on all the hand brakes of the trailing waggons, takes over 1/2 a hour to do this then we attempt to change the knuckle with a spare on the engine - wrong type - try another from a different engine, still no go. examine all the other spares on each engine before we walk the lenght of the train again almost 900 metere long remove the rear knuckle on the last waggon throw it on to the platform then over a fence & call a taxi to assist the 2 of us getting it back to the front of the train , all of this in 40 = centigrade temps [ over 100f] luckily we can get close to the 4th waggon & off load the knucle from the boot { trunk ] of the taxi & then try to fit it in the drawgear. Bloody hell still no good so have to wait for the flying squad to drive 15 miles from their depot in terrible traffic. They arrive & examine the situation & in his best ozzy /polish accent he states that in all his years of railway employment he had never seen a auto like the ones fitted to this train.

Something like 4 hrs has now passed with the main line totally blocked in both directions so control now decides to arrange for additional engines to be worked to the scene at the rear & pull the rear part of the train back to the only yard that can hold the rear portion. 6 hrs down & engines arrive , hand brakes all released & full brake test conducted on this portion. the fron portion 4 engines & 3 trucks also have to have full brake test done & they can then proceed froward to a yard 6 miles further south where the waggons can be stowed & locos returned to where the rest of train was taken to bring the other 39 trucks south again after the 3 pack is cut out of consist.
My co driver & I were relived at the site as Australia also has shift patterns that have to be adherred to , & also so that we would be available for the return trip of empty coal hoppers of the same train.
All up we tied up the main illawarra line for almost 8 hrs making paying commuters extremly happy , train control getting a few more grey hairs & some bus drivers very happy as they had to be called out for overtime to replace the numerous surban trains that had to be terminated short of their destination.


Tom

[misfit]

QUOTE: Originally posted by uticajack

Assuming that the busted coupler is 100 cars deep on a 200 car train, and that the conductor has to carry that knuckle back that far. That distance can be close to a mile in length. Just what does that basic knuckle weigh?

Bloody heavy approximately 30 kilo

[Anonymous]

Just like tonight here on the UP Blair sub. A Westbound Grain Load from Sioux City come through town doing good speed just got ot of town,The Power got to the top of the Hill when a Nuckle broke on them when the Train went into an Emergency! Luckly there was an Empty Hopper just close behind when this happend. So the Hopper Train Power and all Coupled to the rear of the grain load and helped to push it over the Blair hill. BNSFrailfan.

[donbpage]

I was watch freights stop in Winslow a few weeks back and noticed that they all backed up to put slack in couplers befor starting. This allows the momentum of the moving cars to overcome the static friction. Do they have to back down the hill to get slack before continuing?

[wesper]

Fascinating thread - thanks for talking me out of a second career. I assume knuckles only break in the rain, frigid cold, or hottest day of the year, yes?

[petitnj]

Note that the knuckle will normally bust at the front of the train. Usually it is a faulty forging in the knuckle face itself. In shuffling around cars, eventually the weak knuckle will be near the front of the train and the stress on that knuckle will cause it to fail. You normally will not have the knuckle fail in the middle of the train since the stress on that knuckle will be only half of that on the front of the train.

We experienced a break right outside the window of Jackson Street Roundhouse of the Minnesota Transportation Museum on BNSF (ex GN) Westminister hill. UP coal train with 3 units on front, 110 loaded coal cars and 2 units on the back. Doing about 10 mph uphill, the 7th car's coupler broke, rear of the train stopped and the front went about 400 feet before stopping. Obviously the pusher was not applied yet. The coupler showed a faulty forging (I have the knuckle in the museum) with rust about 1/2 way thru the metal. The crew had a knuckle but no tools. I brought out a vice grips to remove the cotter key on the knuckle pin. The hill is about 0.85 % and the helpers set brakes at the rear to hold until the train was recharged and pushed up the hill. A rather expensive way to test knuckle forgings (which obviously are xrayed by TSA).

Hopefully the knuckle face is the weak point on the train. Breakage of anything else is much more difficult to correct .

[jchnhtfd]

Wabash -- it wasn't me blamed the engineer -- it was the conductor! I can see how an engine that won't load smoothly would raise havoc with the train handling.

[wabash1]

yes you must get the slack out or control it softly. yanking the hell out of a heavy rear will tear it up. the way i understand it is if the rear gets torn up it is the engineers fault if the head end gets torn up it was poorly built train. either way they still want to blame the engineer i blame the engines. you cant train handle if the engines( ge-8 or 9 junkl) wont load . ive been on some engines that you cant out run your own smoke. that makes a fun trip.

[jchnhtfd]

Wabash -- now you have me fascinated! I had always kind of taken for granted (not being an on-the-ground railroader -- just a lowly office/field professional engineer!) that if you busted a knuckle or drawbar it would most likely be up front -- as you say, first 30 cars or so. Honestly never occurred to me that it could also be in the last 30... why?

Oh wait: if the engineer takes the slack out too fast, could the shock loading towards the back of a long train do it? I've been in the van a few times when if you weren't sitting down holding onto something you wound up plastered in a heap at the back door... !

[wabash1]

broken knuckles are more likly due to train handling and mostly due to rip rap territory not long hard pulls. if things are streached out there is no chance of tearing it apart. you haft to have slack in the train to get it to come apart. and if it is double main it is just as bad as single main. when a train goes into emergency he will anounce it then call the dispatcher he will stop all trains til the train is inspected to make sure there is no derailment and nothing fouling the other main then after this is done at least 1 main is opened back up. i have never seen a train come apart in the middle its always been in the first 30 cars or the very rear 30 cars nothing in the middle. and to clarify i have never seen a train come apart in the middle not saying it wont happen i just have not seen or heard of it before.

[BigJim]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Sterling1

I know this is beyond this topic but what if the knuckle breaks enough that it punctures or damages the air hose?

I have never even seen this happen. If the knuckle breaks, the broken part is directly opposite of the hose and would simply fall to the ground. Yes we do carry extra hoses on the engines. Hoses are most likely to be damaged if they are low and dragging on road crossings.

[spbed]

I think back there on this thread somebody said they also carry spare air hoses! If correct then the crew would repair the hose as well. [:)][:p]

Originally posted by Sterling1

Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR  Austin TX Sub

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