Originally posted by chad thomas No Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply mudchicken Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Denver / La Junta 10,786 posts Posted by mudchicken on Friday, April 1, 2005 12:58 PM Also found at either end of the train were/are caboose chains, brake hoses, grommets, ball peen hammers, wrenches, prybars, brake shoes, tempsticks, paintstik, journal oil , train order hoops & string , lantern batteries and rags/packing and the like. In a month of walking track, especially yards...I'd find plenty of this stuff lying around. used to love driving up to the roundhouse mechanical foreman every so often and place a large pile peace offering in the center of his desk , and then flee.[:D][:D][B)] Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west Reply Hugh Jampton Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: Southern Region now, UK 820 posts Posted by Hugh Jampton on Friday, April 1, 2005 1:01 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed OK I want to make sure I understand correctly. Let us say you have a 200 car train & the knukle breaks between car 90 & 91 while go uphill. That means car 91 & all behind it are now free to roll backwards but once the airline severs between cars 90 & 91 the brakes on car 91 & all behind it brakes will lock is that correct? I do understand about the crew changing a coupler. I sure that has to be right up there as being the job I like doing the most! Do I have it correct? [:)][:p] Originally posted by chad thomas No close,, the whole train goes into emergency. Lock is probably not a good term, but there is sufficient brake force to stop the train from rolling down the hill. Generally a lurker by natureBe AlertThe world needs more lerts.It's the 3rd rail that makes the difference. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 1, 2005 1:07 PM Thank U & sorry for my poor choice of words. Thanks for the clarification also. [:p][:)] Originally posted by Hugh Jampton Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 1, 2005 1:10 PM Sounds like they carry a small repair shop with them. The bottom part is real cute. Do U check your locker ever day before opening it? [:o)][:p] Originally posted by mudchicken Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 1, 2005 1:48 PM No one mentioned the dispatcher. Despite the physical trials and tribulations of such a problem, the journey is not complete until the Dispatcher and any impacted person has a say in the matter. Poor train crew. Does the time count against the hog law? Reply Edit selector Member sinceFebruary 2005 From: Vancouver Island, BC 23,321 posts Posted by selector on Friday, April 1, 2005 1:58 PM Really a bad thing to happen if it was on a single line because other trains would be held up (=$ lost). I was in the tank corps for a few years, and changing tracks on tanks was about the worst thing you had to do. Changing couplers, I fear, is far worse. Reply mudchicken Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Denver / La Junta 10,786 posts Posted by mudchicken on Friday, April 1, 2005 2:50 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed Sounds like they carry a small repair shop with them. The bottom part is real cute. Do U check your locker ever day before opening it? [:o)][:p] Originally posted by mudchicken Don't need one - It's all behind the front seat in the cab of the pickup truck.[:D][}:)][}:)] Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Friday, April 1, 2005 4:39 PM Knuckle breaks between car 99&100 in a 200 car train. First, conductor gets on the horn to the dispatcher, and any other train he knows is in the area to advise them of what has happened. He/she then gets to walk back to the break....when he gets there, first thing he does is close the angle***on the car forward of the break, so the engineer can recover the air on the head cut. He then ties handbrakes on the part that broke away...he does not turn up retainers, they only work when the train line is charged...hand brakes, as many as he thinks(and that road's rules) requires, then a few more just to be safe. After he is sure the rear is secure, and will not run away if there is a leaker that allows the brake cylinder to equalize with the resevoir, he has the engineer throw off the correct knuckle, (most locomotives have at least 2 different styles, a E and an F in hangers) and then he grabs on the last car, has the engineer drag him up to the knuckle, stops, throws it on the last cars walkway, gets shoved back down to the break, repairs the busted knuckle, couples up the cars, has the engineer stretch the joint to make sure the couple made, (nothing like doing all of this, forgetting to check the joint, walking to the head end, only to have it plug again when you start moving...yes I did, and no, never again) cuts in the air, waits till the engineer has the air back on the rest of the train, knocks off the hand brakes, and if he is lucky and the dispatcher isnt too POed at them, gets permission for the engineer to back up enough to pick him up, otherwise, he walks back to the head end, call the dispatcher, and they get underway. Yes, all of this work counts against the total time on duty. And most locomotives still have 2 knuckles, at least one knuckle pin, spare air hose and hanger, wrench, flagmans kit(fusees, torpedos, red flag) on board. Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 1, 2005 7:21 PM What is the avg life of a knuckle? How often do the break on the road? Reply Edit edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Friday, April 1, 2005 8:33 PM I might be one of the lucky few...in 8 years, I have only had one knuckle go on a road job...a 125 car loaded coke train...and it was 80 cars deep. Have busted a few in my normal daily job, flat yard switching...and one of those was on a brand new UTLX tank car...most of the time, I get busted kunckle pins... More often that not, the break is due to a internal defect in the knuckle, not the age of the knuckle... Unlike brake rigging and safety appliances, there is no mandatory time limit on how long a knuckle is used, and they get looked at by car knockers all the time, so most obvious defect, cracks and pieces missing, show up and get repaired before the cars are released. Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 1, 2005 8:52 PM Ed - Thanks fro the info. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 1, 2005 9:13 PM No more spares than "Wheeeeee"! Thats the end... Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 1, 2005 9:14 PM Assuming that the busted coupler is 100 cars deep on a 200 car train, and that the conductor has to carry that knuckle back that far. That distance can be close to a mile in length. Just what does that basic knuckle weigh? Reply Edit arbfbe Member sinceFebruary 2002 910 posts Posted by arbfbe on Saturday, April 2, 2005 6:40 AM Knuckles weigh about 85 lbs these days. That is why job interviews for brakeman/switchman/conductor positions involve strength tests. It is doubtful the conductor would have to physically carry the knuckle that far. The engineer will unload the knuckle to the ground. The conductor will climb on the last car ahead of the break and the engineer will pull the head end of the train foreward until the conductor is at the knuckle and stop. The conductor will load the knuckle on board that car and the engineer will shove the head end of the train back to where the rear end of the train is. The conductor will proceed to change the knuckle, no mean feat for one person, make the joint, cut in the air and release the handbrakes he tied on the rear end. The engineer will do a set and release air brake test as the conductor walks to the head end if the engine brakes will hold the train on the grade. If not, the conductor will leave the brakes on until the air test is complete and the engineer sets the brakes again to hold the train. He still has to walk to the head end before the train can move. Sometimes getting started can cause another knuckle or drawbar to fail and the process gets repeated once or maybe twice again...... There are times when the train is in such a location the engineer cannot pull the front portion of the train ahead. Then the conductor will have to carry the knuckle back to the joint. It may be slid over a broom handle and dragged back rather than carried in this instance. Most trains of 200 cars would probably need to have helpers cut into the train on a steep grade. That would mean the brakeman on the helpers could walk up to help the conductor replace the iron. Reply Dutchrailnut Member sinceMarch 2005 From: Brewster, NY 648 posts Posted by Dutchrailnut on Saturday, April 2, 2005 6:57 AM Even if knuckle prevents pulling, conductor can drop rear knuckle out of last car and after hooking up air the engines can pu***he train back. Then stopping the broken knuckle just about where the knuckle lays the train is once more pulled apart and the knuckle replaced. Just because your required to be able to carry a knuckle does not mean you have to do it an entire trainlenght. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Saturday, April 2, 2005 8:22 AM Wow thanks for the detail lesson! Sorry for the crew though. Sounds like a very unpleasent task. [:p][:)] Originally posted by arbfbe [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, April 2, 2005 9:32 AM I don't know exactly how much a knuckle weighs (I'd guess at least 40 pounds), but they are not easy to carry--no convenient handles to hold onto. I was taught how to do a changeout when I hired out, but all I remember from that is that you remove the knuckle pin and let the old one drop (watch your feet!). Ed's got the correct sequence of things for changing one out. But keep in mind that when the train goes into emergency, you aren't immediately sure what caused it (you aren't even sure everything is on the rails, so you can't attempt to move the train--someone definitely has to make the long walk back). A knuckle is probably the best cause to deal with--if it's a drawbar, you'll be calling for car-department help. Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply arbfbe Member sinceFebruary 2002 910 posts Posted by arbfbe on Saturday, April 2, 2005 11:32 AM dutchrailnut, NO, you would not attempt to put air to the rear of the train and move if backwards without a physical connection. Not to be done on flatland and NEVER to be attempted on any grade. No, the chain or belt for moving a single car without a drawbar would not work either. How long do you think your air connection will last once the slack runs out? This is a totally preposterous idea fraught with too many dangers to comtemplate. Now I just have to wait for someone to post how they see this move done all the time. Reply ValleyX Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 1,103 posts Posted by ValleyX on Saturday, April 2, 2005 11:35 AM Yes, it's unpleasant and thankfully, it doesn't happen all that often. One of the fun parts that no one has mentioned is when the engineer gets to play 20 questions with the dispatcher about why the knuckle failure occurred. Then, there's the fun part where the road foreman of engines gets roused out to go and pull the tapes (or download the computer) so that the company can check and see if the engineer was using proper train handling techniques. If he or she was, no problem but if they take exception to the way the engineer was handling the train, then they're going to hear about it. Reply arbfbe Member sinceFebruary 2002 910 posts Posted by arbfbe on Saturday, April 2, 2005 11:56 AM CShaver Cars with broken drawbars, the really heavy part the knuckle fits into, come in two kinds, the right end and the wrong end. The car with a broken or missing drawbar on the right end is one with the drawbar gone on the end away from the locomotives. The crew just takes that car and all the cars ahead of it to the next siding or back track and sets it out.. If it is a car with the broken drawbar on the end next to the locomotives they have to chain that car to the car ahead of it to take it to the next siding or back track. There is a bit of a lip around the draft gear housing the drawbar fits into. The railroad provides a really heavy chain or a newer fabric strap on the locomotives for this. You back the head end of the train against the bad order car and wrap the chain or belt around the draft gear of the broken car and the drawbar on the car ahead of it. A figure 8 type of wrap is used since it is self tightening as the slack opens up. The air is cut into the damaged car so if the chain or belt slips off that car and the cars attached to the locomotives will stop and not run back into the cars remaining on the grade. This operation can make for a long night for the crew. After the car is set out and the train is gone the carmen will come out in a truck with a new drawbar and repair the car. If the drawbar is pulled completely out of the car in question, then the crew has to find it and roll it out from between the rails. It si probably beneath a railcar which adds to the difficulty in rolling it out and over the top of one of the rails. The draw head is tall enough to derail a car if it contacts the axle of the cars. Sometimes the shank of the drawbar may tilt upwards and puncture a car going over it while the train stops. If you are "lucky" the drawbar stays coupled to the car ahead of it. Then you have to lift the shank end enough to take the tension off the knuckles so another employee (the engineer is the only one less than a train length away) can pull the pin and the broken drawbar will fall away so you can move it outside of the rails. No, you don't have the parts or tools to put it back into the car it came out of. Are we having fun, yet? Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, April 2, 2005 12:34 PM Thanks for elaborating, Arbfbe--I've been involved with drawbar-related derailments, and have seen the lucky ones on which they've stayed attached, too--another strong argument in favor of shelf couplers! Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply BigJim Member sinceApril 2001 From: Roanoke, VA 2,015 posts Posted by BigJim on Saturday, April 2, 2005 12:55 PM You guys forgot to tell the hardest part about changing a knuckle, trying to get the cotter pin out of the knuckle pin so it can be removed. More times than not the cotter pin is bent all screwy and if you have a dull chisel it can take quiet a while. Now hope that the knuckle pin isn't bent so bad that it can't be removed. OH, did you know you don't even need a knuckle pin? I don't know how many times I've made a cut and the knuckle fell flat on the ground because there was no pin. . Reply 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub
QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed OK I want to make sure I understand correctly. Let us say you have a 200 car train & the knukle breaks between car 90 & 91 while go uphill. That means car 91 & all behind it are now free to roll backwards but once the airline severs between cars 90 & 91 the brakes on car 91 & all behind it brakes will lock is that correct? I do understand about the crew changing a coupler. I sure that has to be right up there as being the job I like doing the most! Do I have it correct? [:)][:p] Originally posted by chad thomas No close,, the whole train goes into emergency. Lock is probably not a good term, but there is sufficient brake force to stop the train from rolling down the hill. Generally a lurker by natureBe AlertThe world needs more lerts.It's the 3rd rail that makes the difference. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 1, 2005 1:07 PM Thank U & sorry for my poor choice of words. Thanks for the clarification also. [:p][:)] Originally posted by Hugh Jampton Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 1, 2005 1:10 PM Sounds like they carry a small repair shop with them. The bottom part is real cute. Do U check your locker ever day before opening it? [:o)][:p] Originally posted by mudchicken Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 1, 2005 1:48 PM No one mentioned the dispatcher. Despite the physical trials and tribulations of such a problem, the journey is not complete until the Dispatcher and any impacted person has a say in the matter. Poor train crew. Does the time count against the hog law? Reply Edit selector Member sinceFebruary 2005 From: Vancouver Island, BC 23,321 posts Posted by selector on Friday, April 1, 2005 1:58 PM Really a bad thing to happen if it was on a single line because other trains would be held up (=$ lost). I was in the tank corps for a few years, and changing tracks on tanks was about the worst thing you had to do. Changing couplers, I fear, is far worse. Reply mudchicken Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Denver / La Junta 10,786 posts Posted by mudchicken on Friday, April 1, 2005 2:50 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed Sounds like they carry a small repair shop with them. The bottom part is real cute. Do U check your locker ever day before opening it? [:o)][:p] Originally posted by mudchicken Don't need one - It's all behind the front seat in the cab of the pickup truck.[:D][}:)][}:)] Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Friday, April 1, 2005 4:39 PM Knuckle breaks between car 99&100 in a 200 car train. First, conductor gets on the horn to the dispatcher, and any other train he knows is in the area to advise them of what has happened. He/she then gets to walk back to the break....when he gets there, first thing he does is close the angle***on the car forward of the break, so the engineer can recover the air on the head cut. He then ties handbrakes on the part that broke away...he does not turn up retainers, they only work when the train line is charged...hand brakes, as many as he thinks(and that road's rules) requires, then a few more just to be safe. After he is sure the rear is secure, and will not run away if there is a leaker that allows the brake cylinder to equalize with the resevoir, he has the engineer throw off the correct knuckle, (most locomotives have at least 2 different styles, a E and an F in hangers) and then he grabs on the last car, has the engineer drag him up to the knuckle, stops, throws it on the last cars walkway, gets shoved back down to the break, repairs the busted knuckle, couples up the cars, has the engineer stretch the joint to make sure the couple made, (nothing like doing all of this, forgetting to check the joint, walking to the head end, only to have it plug again when you start moving...yes I did, and no, never again) cuts in the air, waits till the engineer has the air back on the rest of the train, knocks off the hand brakes, and if he is lucky and the dispatcher isnt too POed at them, gets permission for the engineer to back up enough to pick him up, otherwise, he walks back to the head end, call the dispatcher, and they get underway. Yes, all of this work counts against the total time on duty. And most locomotives still have 2 knuckles, at least one knuckle pin, spare air hose and hanger, wrench, flagmans kit(fusees, torpedos, red flag) on board. Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 1, 2005 7:21 PM What is the avg life of a knuckle? How often do the break on the road? Reply Edit edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Friday, April 1, 2005 8:33 PM I might be one of the lucky few...in 8 years, I have only had one knuckle go on a road job...a 125 car loaded coke train...and it was 80 cars deep. Have busted a few in my normal daily job, flat yard switching...and one of those was on a brand new UTLX tank car...most of the time, I get busted kunckle pins... More often that not, the break is due to a internal defect in the knuckle, not the age of the knuckle... Unlike brake rigging and safety appliances, there is no mandatory time limit on how long a knuckle is used, and they get looked at by car knockers all the time, so most obvious defect, cracks and pieces missing, show up and get repaired before the cars are released. Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 1, 2005 8:52 PM Ed - Thanks fro the info. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 1, 2005 9:13 PM No more spares than "Wheeeeee"! Thats the end... Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 1, 2005 9:14 PM Assuming that the busted coupler is 100 cars deep on a 200 car train, and that the conductor has to carry that knuckle back that far. That distance can be close to a mile in length. Just what does that basic knuckle weigh? Reply Edit arbfbe Member sinceFebruary 2002 910 posts Posted by arbfbe on Saturday, April 2, 2005 6:40 AM Knuckles weigh about 85 lbs these days. That is why job interviews for brakeman/switchman/conductor positions involve strength tests. It is doubtful the conductor would have to physically carry the knuckle that far. The engineer will unload the knuckle to the ground. The conductor will climb on the last car ahead of the break and the engineer will pull the head end of the train foreward until the conductor is at the knuckle and stop. The conductor will load the knuckle on board that car and the engineer will shove the head end of the train back to where the rear end of the train is. The conductor will proceed to change the knuckle, no mean feat for one person, make the joint, cut in the air and release the handbrakes he tied on the rear end. The engineer will do a set and release air brake test as the conductor walks to the head end if the engine brakes will hold the train on the grade. If not, the conductor will leave the brakes on until the air test is complete and the engineer sets the brakes again to hold the train. He still has to walk to the head end before the train can move. Sometimes getting started can cause another knuckle or drawbar to fail and the process gets repeated once or maybe twice again...... There are times when the train is in such a location the engineer cannot pull the front portion of the train ahead. Then the conductor will have to carry the knuckle back to the joint. It may be slid over a broom handle and dragged back rather than carried in this instance. Most trains of 200 cars would probably need to have helpers cut into the train on a steep grade. That would mean the brakeman on the helpers could walk up to help the conductor replace the iron. Reply Dutchrailnut Member sinceMarch 2005 From: Brewster, NY 648 posts Posted by Dutchrailnut on Saturday, April 2, 2005 6:57 AM Even if knuckle prevents pulling, conductor can drop rear knuckle out of last car and after hooking up air the engines can pu***he train back. Then stopping the broken knuckle just about where the knuckle lays the train is once more pulled apart and the knuckle replaced. Just because your required to be able to carry a knuckle does not mean you have to do it an entire trainlenght. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Saturday, April 2, 2005 8:22 AM Wow thanks for the detail lesson! Sorry for the crew though. Sounds like a very unpleasent task. [:p][:)] Originally posted by arbfbe [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, April 2, 2005 9:32 AM I don't know exactly how much a knuckle weighs (I'd guess at least 40 pounds), but they are not easy to carry--no convenient handles to hold onto. I was taught how to do a changeout when I hired out, but all I remember from that is that you remove the knuckle pin and let the old one drop (watch your feet!). Ed's got the correct sequence of things for changing one out. But keep in mind that when the train goes into emergency, you aren't immediately sure what caused it (you aren't even sure everything is on the rails, so you can't attempt to move the train--someone definitely has to make the long walk back). A knuckle is probably the best cause to deal with--if it's a drawbar, you'll be calling for car-department help. Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply arbfbe Member sinceFebruary 2002 910 posts Posted by arbfbe on Saturday, April 2, 2005 11:32 AM dutchrailnut, NO, you would not attempt to put air to the rear of the train and move if backwards without a physical connection. Not to be done on flatland and NEVER to be attempted on any grade. No, the chain or belt for moving a single car without a drawbar would not work either. How long do you think your air connection will last once the slack runs out? This is a totally preposterous idea fraught with too many dangers to comtemplate. Now I just have to wait for someone to post how they see this move done all the time. Reply ValleyX Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 1,103 posts Posted by ValleyX on Saturday, April 2, 2005 11:35 AM Yes, it's unpleasant and thankfully, it doesn't happen all that often. One of the fun parts that no one has mentioned is when the engineer gets to play 20 questions with the dispatcher about why the knuckle failure occurred. Then, there's the fun part where the road foreman of engines gets roused out to go and pull the tapes (or download the computer) so that the company can check and see if the engineer was using proper train handling techniques. If he or she was, no problem but if they take exception to the way the engineer was handling the train, then they're going to hear about it. Reply arbfbe Member sinceFebruary 2002 910 posts Posted by arbfbe on Saturday, April 2, 2005 11:56 AM CShaver Cars with broken drawbars, the really heavy part the knuckle fits into, come in two kinds, the right end and the wrong end. The car with a broken or missing drawbar on the right end is one with the drawbar gone on the end away from the locomotives. The crew just takes that car and all the cars ahead of it to the next siding or back track and sets it out.. If it is a car with the broken drawbar on the end next to the locomotives they have to chain that car to the car ahead of it to take it to the next siding or back track. There is a bit of a lip around the draft gear housing the drawbar fits into. The railroad provides a really heavy chain or a newer fabric strap on the locomotives for this. You back the head end of the train against the bad order car and wrap the chain or belt around the draft gear of the broken car and the drawbar on the car ahead of it. A figure 8 type of wrap is used since it is self tightening as the slack opens up. The air is cut into the damaged car so if the chain or belt slips off that car and the cars attached to the locomotives will stop and not run back into the cars remaining on the grade. This operation can make for a long night for the crew. After the car is set out and the train is gone the carmen will come out in a truck with a new drawbar and repair the car. If the drawbar is pulled completely out of the car in question, then the crew has to find it and roll it out from between the rails. It si probably beneath a railcar which adds to the difficulty in rolling it out and over the top of one of the rails. The draw head is tall enough to derail a car if it contacts the axle of the cars. Sometimes the shank of the drawbar may tilt upwards and puncture a car going over it while the train stops. If you are "lucky" the drawbar stays coupled to the car ahead of it. Then you have to lift the shank end enough to take the tension off the knuckles so another employee (the engineer is the only one less than a train length away) can pull the pin and the broken drawbar will fall away so you can move it outside of the rails. No, you don't have the parts or tools to put it back into the car it came out of. Are we having fun, yet? Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, April 2, 2005 12:34 PM Thanks for elaborating, Arbfbe--I've been involved with drawbar-related derailments, and have seen the lucky ones on which they've stayed attached, too--another strong argument in favor of shelf couplers! Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply BigJim Member sinceApril 2001 From: Roanoke, VA 2,015 posts Posted by BigJim on Saturday, April 2, 2005 12:55 PM You guys forgot to tell the hardest part about changing a knuckle, trying to get the cotter pin out of the knuckle pin so it can be removed. More times than not the cotter pin is bent all screwy and if you have a dull chisel it can take quiet a while. Now hope that the knuckle pin isn't bent so bad that it can't be removed. OH, did you know you don't even need a knuckle pin? I don't know how many times I've made a cut and the knuckle fell flat on the ground because there was no pin. . Reply 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by chad thomas No
Originally posted by Hugh Jampton Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 1, 2005 1:10 PM Sounds like they carry a small repair shop with them. The bottom part is real cute. Do U check your locker ever day before opening it? [:o)][:p] Originally posted by mudchicken Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 1, 2005 1:48 PM No one mentioned the dispatcher. Despite the physical trials and tribulations of such a problem, the journey is not complete until the Dispatcher and any impacted person has a say in the matter. Poor train crew. Does the time count against the hog law? Reply Edit selector Member sinceFebruary 2005 From: Vancouver Island, BC 23,321 posts Posted by selector on Friday, April 1, 2005 1:58 PM Really a bad thing to happen if it was on a single line because other trains would be held up (=$ lost). I was in the tank corps for a few years, and changing tracks on tanks was about the worst thing you had to do. Changing couplers, I fear, is far worse. Reply mudchicken Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Denver / La Junta 10,786 posts Posted by mudchicken on Friday, April 1, 2005 2:50 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed Sounds like they carry a small repair shop with them. The bottom part is real cute. Do U check your locker ever day before opening it? [:o)][:p] Originally posted by mudchicken Don't need one - It's all behind the front seat in the cab of the pickup truck.[:D][}:)][}:)] Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Friday, April 1, 2005 4:39 PM Knuckle breaks between car 99&100 in a 200 car train. First, conductor gets on the horn to the dispatcher, and any other train he knows is in the area to advise them of what has happened. He/she then gets to walk back to the break....when he gets there, first thing he does is close the angle***on the car forward of the break, so the engineer can recover the air on the head cut. He then ties handbrakes on the part that broke away...he does not turn up retainers, they only work when the train line is charged...hand brakes, as many as he thinks(and that road's rules) requires, then a few more just to be safe. After he is sure the rear is secure, and will not run away if there is a leaker that allows the brake cylinder to equalize with the resevoir, he has the engineer throw off the correct knuckle, (most locomotives have at least 2 different styles, a E and an F in hangers) and then he grabs on the last car, has the engineer drag him up to the knuckle, stops, throws it on the last cars walkway, gets shoved back down to the break, repairs the busted knuckle, couples up the cars, has the engineer stretch the joint to make sure the couple made, (nothing like doing all of this, forgetting to check the joint, walking to the head end, only to have it plug again when you start moving...yes I did, and no, never again) cuts in the air, waits till the engineer has the air back on the rest of the train, knocks off the hand brakes, and if he is lucky and the dispatcher isnt too POed at them, gets permission for the engineer to back up enough to pick him up, otherwise, he walks back to the head end, call the dispatcher, and they get underway. Yes, all of this work counts against the total time on duty. And most locomotives still have 2 knuckles, at least one knuckle pin, spare air hose and hanger, wrench, flagmans kit(fusees, torpedos, red flag) on board. Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 1, 2005 7:21 PM What is the avg life of a knuckle? How often do the break on the road? Reply Edit edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Friday, April 1, 2005 8:33 PM I might be one of the lucky few...in 8 years, I have only had one knuckle go on a road job...a 125 car loaded coke train...and it was 80 cars deep. Have busted a few in my normal daily job, flat yard switching...and one of those was on a brand new UTLX tank car...most of the time, I get busted kunckle pins... More often that not, the break is due to a internal defect in the knuckle, not the age of the knuckle... Unlike brake rigging and safety appliances, there is no mandatory time limit on how long a knuckle is used, and they get looked at by car knockers all the time, so most obvious defect, cracks and pieces missing, show up and get repaired before the cars are released. Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 1, 2005 8:52 PM Ed - Thanks fro the info. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 1, 2005 9:13 PM No more spares than "Wheeeeee"! Thats the end... Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 1, 2005 9:14 PM Assuming that the busted coupler is 100 cars deep on a 200 car train, and that the conductor has to carry that knuckle back that far. That distance can be close to a mile in length. Just what does that basic knuckle weigh? Reply Edit arbfbe Member sinceFebruary 2002 910 posts Posted by arbfbe on Saturday, April 2, 2005 6:40 AM Knuckles weigh about 85 lbs these days. That is why job interviews for brakeman/switchman/conductor positions involve strength tests. It is doubtful the conductor would have to physically carry the knuckle that far. The engineer will unload the knuckle to the ground. The conductor will climb on the last car ahead of the break and the engineer will pull the head end of the train foreward until the conductor is at the knuckle and stop. The conductor will load the knuckle on board that car and the engineer will shove the head end of the train back to where the rear end of the train is. The conductor will proceed to change the knuckle, no mean feat for one person, make the joint, cut in the air and release the handbrakes he tied on the rear end. The engineer will do a set and release air brake test as the conductor walks to the head end if the engine brakes will hold the train on the grade. If not, the conductor will leave the brakes on until the air test is complete and the engineer sets the brakes again to hold the train. He still has to walk to the head end before the train can move. Sometimes getting started can cause another knuckle or drawbar to fail and the process gets repeated once or maybe twice again...... There are times when the train is in such a location the engineer cannot pull the front portion of the train ahead. Then the conductor will have to carry the knuckle back to the joint. It may be slid over a broom handle and dragged back rather than carried in this instance. Most trains of 200 cars would probably need to have helpers cut into the train on a steep grade. That would mean the brakeman on the helpers could walk up to help the conductor replace the iron. Reply Dutchrailnut Member sinceMarch 2005 From: Brewster, NY 648 posts Posted by Dutchrailnut on Saturday, April 2, 2005 6:57 AM Even if knuckle prevents pulling, conductor can drop rear knuckle out of last car and after hooking up air the engines can pu***he train back. Then stopping the broken knuckle just about where the knuckle lays the train is once more pulled apart and the knuckle replaced. Just because your required to be able to carry a knuckle does not mean you have to do it an entire trainlenght. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Saturday, April 2, 2005 8:22 AM Wow thanks for the detail lesson! Sorry for the crew though. Sounds like a very unpleasent task. [:p][:)] Originally posted by arbfbe [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, April 2, 2005 9:32 AM I don't know exactly how much a knuckle weighs (I'd guess at least 40 pounds), but they are not easy to carry--no convenient handles to hold onto. I was taught how to do a changeout when I hired out, but all I remember from that is that you remove the knuckle pin and let the old one drop (watch your feet!). Ed's got the correct sequence of things for changing one out. But keep in mind that when the train goes into emergency, you aren't immediately sure what caused it (you aren't even sure everything is on the rails, so you can't attempt to move the train--someone definitely has to make the long walk back). A knuckle is probably the best cause to deal with--if it's a drawbar, you'll be calling for car-department help. Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply arbfbe Member sinceFebruary 2002 910 posts Posted by arbfbe on Saturday, April 2, 2005 11:32 AM dutchrailnut, NO, you would not attempt to put air to the rear of the train and move if backwards without a physical connection. Not to be done on flatland and NEVER to be attempted on any grade. No, the chain or belt for moving a single car without a drawbar would not work either. How long do you think your air connection will last once the slack runs out? This is a totally preposterous idea fraught with too many dangers to comtemplate. Now I just have to wait for someone to post how they see this move done all the time. Reply ValleyX Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 1,103 posts Posted by ValleyX on Saturday, April 2, 2005 11:35 AM Yes, it's unpleasant and thankfully, it doesn't happen all that often. One of the fun parts that no one has mentioned is when the engineer gets to play 20 questions with the dispatcher about why the knuckle failure occurred. Then, there's the fun part where the road foreman of engines gets roused out to go and pull the tapes (or download the computer) so that the company can check and see if the engineer was using proper train handling techniques. If he or she was, no problem but if they take exception to the way the engineer was handling the train, then they're going to hear about it. Reply arbfbe Member sinceFebruary 2002 910 posts Posted by arbfbe on Saturday, April 2, 2005 11:56 AM CShaver Cars with broken drawbars, the really heavy part the knuckle fits into, come in two kinds, the right end and the wrong end. The car with a broken or missing drawbar on the right end is one with the drawbar gone on the end away from the locomotives. The crew just takes that car and all the cars ahead of it to the next siding or back track and sets it out.. If it is a car with the broken drawbar on the end next to the locomotives they have to chain that car to the car ahead of it to take it to the next siding or back track. There is a bit of a lip around the draft gear housing the drawbar fits into. The railroad provides a really heavy chain or a newer fabric strap on the locomotives for this. You back the head end of the train against the bad order car and wrap the chain or belt around the draft gear of the broken car and the drawbar on the car ahead of it. A figure 8 type of wrap is used since it is self tightening as the slack opens up. The air is cut into the damaged car so if the chain or belt slips off that car and the cars attached to the locomotives will stop and not run back into the cars remaining on the grade. This operation can make for a long night for the crew. After the car is set out and the train is gone the carmen will come out in a truck with a new drawbar and repair the car. If the drawbar is pulled completely out of the car in question, then the crew has to find it and roll it out from between the rails. It si probably beneath a railcar which adds to the difficulty in rolling it out and over the top of one of the rails. The draw head is tall enough to derail a car if it contacts the axle of the cars. Sometimes the shank of the drawbar may tilt upwards and puncture a car going over it while the train stops. If you are "lucky" the drawbar stays coupled to the car ahead of it. Then you have to lift the shank end enough to take the tension off the knuckles so another employee (the engineer is the only one less than a train length away) can pull the pin and the broken drawbar will fall away so you can move it outside of the rails. No, you don't have the parts or tools to put it back into the car it came out of. Are we having fun, yet? Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, April 2, 2005 12:34 PM Thanks for elaborating, Arbfbe--I've been involved with drawbar-related derailments, and have seen the lucky ones on which they've stayed attached, too--another strong argument in favor of shelf couplers! Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply BigJim Member sinceApril 2001 From: Roanoke, VA 2,015 posts Posted by BigJim on Saturday, April 2, 2005 12:55 PM You guys forgot to tell the hardest part about changing a knuckle, trying to get the cotter pin out of the knuckle pin so it can be removed. More times than not the cotter pin is bent all screwy and if you have a dull chisel it can take quiet a while. Now hope that the knuckle pin isn't bent so bad that it can't be removed. OH, did you know you don't even need a knuckle pin? I don't know how many times I've made a cut and the knuckle fell flat on the ground because there was no pin. . Reply 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by mudchicken Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 1, 2005 1:48 PM No one mentioned the dispatcher. Despite the physical trials and tribulations of such a problem, the journey is not complete until the Dispatcher and any impacted person has a say in the matter. Poor train crew. Does the time count against the hog law? Reply Edit selector Member sinceFebruary 2005 From: Vancouver Island, BC 23,321 posts Posted by selector on Friday, April 1, 2005 1:58 PM Really a bad thing to happen if it was on a single line because other trains would be held up (=$ lost). I was in the tank corps for a few years, and changing tracks on tanks was about the worst thing you had to do. Changing couplers, I fear, is far worse. Reply mudchicken Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Denver / La Junta 10,786 posts Posted by mudchicken on Friday, April 1, 2005 2:50 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed Sounds like they carry a small repair shop with them. The bottom part is real cute. Do U check your locker ever day before opening it? [:o)][:p] Originally posted by mudchicken Don't need one - It's all behind the front seat in the cab of the pickup truck.[:D][}:)][}:)] Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Friday, April 1, 2005 4:39 PM Knuckle breaks between car 99&100 in a 200 car train. First, conductor gets on the horn to the dispatcher, and any other train he knows is in the area to advise them of what has happened. He/she then gets to walk back to the break....when he gets there, first thing he does is close the angle***on the car forward of the break, so the engineer can recover the air on the head cut. He then ties handbrakes on the part that broke away...he does not turn up retainers, they only work when the train line is charged...hand brakes, as many as he thinks(and that road's rules) requires, then a few more just to be safe. After he is sure the rear is secure, and will not run away if there is a leaker that allows the brake cylinder to equalize with the resevoir, he has the engineer throw off the correct knuckle, (most locomotives have at least 2 different styles, a E and an F in hangers) and then he grabs on the last car, has the engineer drag him up to the knuckle, stops, throws it on the last cars walkway, gets shoved back down to the break, repairs the busted knuckle, couples up the cars, has the engineer stretch the joint to make sure the couple made, (nothing like doing all of this, forgetting to check the joint, walking to the head end, only to have it plug again when you start moving...yes I did, and no, never again) cuts in the air, waits till the engineer has the air back on the rest of the train, knocks off the hand brakes, and if he is lucky and the dispatcher isnt too POed at them, gets permission for the engineer to back up enough to pick him up, otherwise, he walks back to the head end, call the dispatcher, and they get underway. Yes, all of this work counts against the total time on duty. And most locomotives still have 2 knuckles, at least one knuckle pin, spare air hose and hanger, wrench, flagmans kit(fusees, torpedos, red flag) on board. Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 1, 2005 7:21 PM What is the avg life of a knuckle? How often do the break on the road? Reply Edit edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Friday, April 1, 2005 8:33 PM I might be one of the lucky few...in 8 years, I have only had one knuckle go on a road job...a 125 car loaded coke train...and it was 80 cars deep. Have busted a few in my normal daily job, flat yard switching...and one of those was on a brand new UTLX tank car...most of the time, I get busted kunckle pins... More often that not, the break is due to a internal defect in the knuckle, not the age of the knuckle... Unlike brake rigging and safety appliances, there is no mandatory time limit on how long a knuckle is used, and they get looked at by car knockers all the time, so most obvious defect, cracks and pieces missing, show up and get repaired before the cars are released. Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 1, 2005 8:52 PM Ed - Thanks fro the info. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 1, 2005 9:13 PM No more spares than "Wheeeeee"! Thats the end... Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 1, 2005 9:14 PM Assuming that the busted coupler is 100 cars deep on a 200 car train, and that the conductor has to carry that knuckle back that far. That distance can be close to a mile in length. Just what does that basic knuckle weigh? Reply Edit arbfbe Member sinceFebruary 2002 910 posts Posted by arbfbe on Saturday, April 2, 2005 6:40 AM Knuckles weigh about 85 lbs these days. That is why job interviews for brakeman/switchman/conductor positions involve strength tests. It is doubtful the conductor would have to physically carry the knuckle that far. The engineer will unload the knuckle to the ground. The conductor will climb on the last car ahead of the break and the engineer will pull the head end of the train foreward until the conductor is at the knuckle and stop. The conductor will load the knuckle on board that car and the engineer will shove the head end of the train back to where the rear end of the train is. The conductor will proceed to change the knuckle, no mean feat for one person, make the joint, cut in the air and release the handbrakes he tied on the rear end. The engineer will do a set and release air brake test as the conductor walks to the head end if the engine brakes will hold the train on the grade. If not, the conductor will leave the brakes on until the air test is complete and the engineer sets the brakes again to hold the train. He still has to walk to the head end before the train can move. Sometimes getting started can cause another knuckle or drawbar to fail and the process gets repeated once or maybe twice again...... There are times when the train is in such a location the engineer cannot pull the front portion of the train ahead. Then the conductor will have to carry the knuckle back to the joint. It may be slid over a broom handle and dragged back rather than carried in this instance. Most trains of 200 cars would probably need to have helpers cut into the train on a steep grade. That would mean the brakeman on the helpers could walk up to help the conductor replace the iron. Reply Dutchrailnut Member sinceMarch 2005 From: Brewster, NY 648 posts Posted by Dutchrailnut on Saturday, April 2, 2005 6:57 AM Even if knuckle prevents pulling, conductor can drop rear knuckle out of last car and after hooking up air the engines can pu***he train back. Then stopping the broken knuckle just about where the knuckle lays the train is once more pulled apart and the knuckle replaced. Just because your required to be able to carry a knuckle does not mean you have to do it an entire trainlenght. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Saturday, April 2, 2005 8:22 AM Wow thanks for the detail lesson! Sorry for the crew though. Sounds like a very unpleasent task. [:p][:)] Originally posted by arbfbe [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, April 2, 2005 9:32 AM I don't know exactly how much a knuckle weighs (I'd guess at least 40 pounds), but they are not easy to carry--no convenient handles to hold onto. I was taught how to do a changeout when I hired out, but all I remember from that is that you remove the knuckle pin and let the old one drop (watch your feet!). Ed's got the correct sequence of things for changing one out. But keep in mind that when the train goes into emergency, you aren't immediately sure what caused it (you aren't even sure everything is on the rails, so you can't attempt to move the train--someone definitely has to make the long walk back). A knuckle is probably the best cause to deal with--if it's a drawbar, you'll be calling for car-department help. Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply arbfbe Member sinceFebruary 2002 910 posts Posted by arbfbe on Saturday, April 2, 2005 11:32 AM dutchrailnut, NO, you would not attempt to put air to the rear of the train and move if backwards without a physical connection. Not to be done on flatland and NEVER to be attempted on any grade. No, the chain or belt for moving a single car without a drawbar would not work either. How long do you think your air connection will last once the slack runs out? This is a totally preposterous idea fraught with too many dangers to comtemplate. Now I just have to wait for someone to post how they see this move done all the time. Reply ValleyX Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 1,103 posts Posted by ValleyX on Saturday, April 2, 2005 11:35 AM Yes, it's unpleasant and thankfully, it doesn't happen all that often. One of the fun parts that no one has mentioned is when the engineer gets to play 20 questions with the dispatcher about why the knuckle failure occurred. Then, there's the fun part where the road foreman of engines gets roused out to go and pull the tapes (or download the computer) so that the company can check and see if the engineer was using proper train handling techniques. If he or she was, no problem but if they take exception to the way the engineer was handling the train, then they're going to hear about it. Reply arbfbe Member sinceFebruary 2002 910 posts Posted by arbfbe on Saturday, April 2, 2005 11:56 AM CShaver Cars with broken drawbars, the really heavy part the knuckle fits into, come in two kinds, the right end and the wrong end. The car with a broken or missing drawbar on the right end is one with the drawbar gone on the end away from the locomotives. The crew just takes that car and all the cars ahead of it to the next siding or back track and sets it out.. If it is a car with the broken drawbar on the end next to the locomotives they have to chain that car to the car ahead of it to take it to the next siding or back track. There is a bit of a lip around the draft gear housing the drawbar fits into. The railroad provides a really heavy chain or a newer fabric strap on the locomotives for this. You back the head end of the train against the bad order car and wrap the chain or belt around the draft gear of the broken car and the drawbar on the car ahead of it. A figure 8 type of wrap is used since it is self tightening as the slack opens up. The air is cut into the damaged car so if the chain or belt slips off that car and the cars attached to the locomotives will stop and not run back into the cars remaining on the grade. This operation can make for a long night for the crew. After the car is set out and the train is gone the carmen will come out in a truck with a new drawbar and repair the car. If the drawbar is pulled completely out of the car in question, then the crew has to find it and roll it out from between the rails. It si probably beneath a railcar which adds to the difficulty in rolling it out and over the top of one of the rails. The draw head is tall enough to derail a car if it contacts the axle of the cars. Sometimes the shank of the drawbar may tilt upwards and puncture a car going over it while the train stops. If you are "lucky" the drawbar stays coupled to the car ahead of it. Then you have to lift the shank end enough to take the tension off the knuckles so another employee (the engineer is the only one less than a train length away) can pull the pin and the broken drawbar will fall away so you can move it outside of the rails. No, you don't have the parts or tools to put it back into the car it came out of. Are we having fun, yet? Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, April 2, 2005 12:34 PM Thanks for elaborating, Arbfbe--I've been involved with drawbar-related derailments, and have seen the lucky ones on which they've stayed attached, too--another strong argument in favor of shelf couplers! Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply BigJim Member sinceApril 2001 From: Roanoke, VA 2,015 posts Posted by BigJim on Saturday, April 2, 2005 12:55 PM You guys forgot to tell the hardest part about changing a knuckle, trying to get the cotter pin out of the knuckle pin so it can be removed. More times than not the cotter pin is bent all screwy and if you have a dull chisel it can take quiet a while. Now hope that the knuckle pin isn't bent so bad that it can't be removed. OH, did you know you don't even need a knuckle pin? I don't know how many times I've made a cut and the knuckle fell flat on the ground because there was no pin. . Reply 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed Sounds like they carry a small repair shop with them. The bottom part is real cute. Do U check your locker ever day before opening it? [:o)][:p] Originally posted by mudchicken Don't need one - It's all behind the front seat in the cab of the pickup truck.[:D][}:)][}:)] Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Friday, April 1, 2005 4:39 PM Knuckle breaks between car 99&100 in a 200 car train. First, conductor gets on the horn to the dispatcher, and any other train he knows is in the area to advise them of what has happened. He/she then gets to walk back to the break....when he gets there, first thing he does is close the angle***on the car forward of the break, so the engineer can recover the air on the head cut. He then ties handbrakes on the part that broke away...he does not turn up retainers, they only work when the train line is charged...hand brakes, as many as he thinks(and that road's rules) requires, then a few more just to be safe. After he is sure the rear is secure, and will not run away if there is a leaker that allows the brake cylinder to equalize with the resevoir, he has the engineer throw off the correct knuckle, (most locomotives have at least 2 different styles, a E and an F in hangers) and then he grabs on the last car, has the engineer drag him up to the knuckle, stops, throws it on the last cars walkway, gets shoved back down to the break, repairs the busted knuckle, couples up the cars, has the engineer stretch the joint to make sure the couple made, (nothing like doing all of this, forgetting to check the joint, walking to the head end, only to have it plug again when you start moving...yes I did, and no, never again) cuts in the air, waits till the engineer has the air back on the rest of the train, knocks off the hand brakes, and if he is lucky and the dispatcher isnt too POed at them, gets permission for the engineer to back up enough to pick him up, otherwise, he walks back to the head end, call the dispatcher, and they get underway. Yes, all of this work counts against the total time on duty. And most locomotives still have 2 knuckles, at least one knuckle pin, spare air hose and hanger, wrench, flagmans kit(fusees, torpedos, red flag) on board. Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 1, 2005 7:21 PM What is the avg life of a knuckle? How often do the break on the road? Reply Edit edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Friday, April 1, 2005 8:33 PM I might be one of the lucky few...in 8 years, I have only had one knuckle go on a road job...a 125 car loaded coke train...and it was 80 cars deep. Have busted a few in my normal daily job, flat yard switching...and one of those was on a brand new UTLX tank car...most of the time, I get busted kunckle pins... More often that not, the break is due to a internal defect in the knuckle, not the age of the knuckle... Unlike brake rigging and safety appliances, there is no mandatory time limit on how long a knuckle is used, and they get looked at by car knockers all the time, so most obvious defect, cracks and pieces missing, show up and get repaired before the cars are released. Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 1, 2005 8:52 PM Ed - Thanks fro the info. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 1, 2005 9:13 PM No more spares than "Wheeeeee"! Thats the end... Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 1, 2005 9:14 PM Assuming that the busted coupler is 100 cars deep on a 200 car train, and that the conductor has to carry that knuckle back that far. That distance can be close to a mile in length. Just what does that basic knuckle weigh? Reply Edit arbfbe Member sinceFebruary 2002 910 posts Posted by arbfbe on Saturday, April 2, 2005 6:40 AM Knuckles weigh about 85 lbs these days. That is why job interviews for brakeman/switchman/conductor positions involve strength tests. It is doubtful the conductor would have to physically carry the knuckle that far. The engineer will unload the knuckle to the ground. The conductor will climb on the last car ahead of the break and the engineer will pull the head end of the train foreward until the conductor is at the knuckle and stop. The conductor will load the knuckle on board that car and the engineer will shove the head end of the train back to where the rear end of the train is. The conductor will proceed to change the knuckle, no mean feat for one person, make the joint, cut in the air and release the handbrakes he tied on the rear end. The engineer will do a set and release air brake test as the conductor walks to the head end if the engine brakes will hold the train on the grade. If not, the conductor will leave the brakes on until the air test is complete and the engineer sets the brakes again to hold the train. He still has to walk to the head end before the train can move. Sometimes getting started can cause another knuckle or drawbar to fail and the process gets repeated once or maybe twice again...... There are times when the train is in such a location the engineer cannot pull the front portion of the train ahead. Then the conductor will have to carry the knuckle back to the joint. It may be slid over a broom handle and dragged back rather than carried in this instance. Most trains of 200 cars would probably need to have helpers cut into the train on a steep grade. That would mean the brakeman on the helpers could walk up to help the conductor replace the iron. Reply Dutchrailnut Member sinceMarch 2005 From: Brewster, NY 648 posts Posted by Dutchrailnut on Saturday, April 2, 2005 6:57 AM Even if knuckle prevents pulling, conductor can drop rear knuckle out of last car and after hooking up air the engines can pu***he train back. Then stopping the broken knuckle just about where the knuckle lays the train is once more pulled apart and the knuckle replaced. Just because your required to be able to carry a knuckle does not mean you have to do it an entire trainlenght. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Saturday, April 2, 2005 8:22 AM Wow thanks for the detail lesson! Sorry for the crew though. Sounds like a very unpleasent task. [:p][:)] Originally posted by arbfbe [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, April 2, 2005 9:32 AM I don't know exactly how much a knuckle weighs (I'd guess at least 40 pounds), but they are not easy to carry--no convenient handles to hold onto. I was taught how to do a changeout when I hired out, but all I remember from that is that you remove the knuckle pin and let the old one drop (watch your feet!). Ed's got the correct sequence of things for changing one out. But keep in mind that when the train goes into emergency, you aren't immediately sure what caused it (you aren't even sure everything is on the rails, so you can't attempt to move the train--someone definitely has to make the long walk back). A knuckle is probably the best cause to deal with--if it's a drawbar, you'll be calling for car-department help. Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply arbfbe Member sinceFebruary 2002 910 posts Posted by arbfbe on Saturday, April 2, 2005 11:32 AM dutchrailnut, NO, you would not attempt to put air to the rear of the train and move if backwards without a physical connection. Not to be done on flatland and NEVER to be attempted on any grade. No, the chain or belt for moving a single car without a drawbar would not work either. How long do you think your air connection will last once the slack runs out? This is a totally preposterous idea fraught with too many dangers to comtemplate. Now I just have to wait for someone to post how they see this move done all the time. Reply ValleyX Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 1,103 posts Posted by ValleyX on Saturday, April 2, 2005 11:35 AM Yes, it's unpleasant and thankfully, it doesn't happen all that often. One of the fun parts that no one has mentioned is when the engineer gets to play 20 questions with the dispatcher about why the knuckle failure occurred. Then, there's the fun part where the road foreman of engines gets roused out to go and pull the tapes (or download the computer) so that the company can check and see if the engineer was using proper train handling techniques. If he or she was, no problem but if they take exception to the way the engineer was handling the train, then they're going to hear about it. Reply arbfbe Member sinceFebruary 2002 910 posts Posted by arbfbe on Saturday, April 2, 2005 11:56 AM CShaver Cars with broken drawbars, the really heavy part the knuckle fits into, come in two kinds, the right end and the wrong end. The car with a broken or missing drawbar on the right end is one with the drawbar gone on the end away from the locomotives. The crew just takes that car and all the cars ahead of it to the next siding or back track and sets it out.. If it is a car with the broken drawbar on the end next to the locomotives they have to chain that car to the car ahead of it to take it to the next siding or back track. There is a bit of a lip around the draft gear housing the drawbar fits into. The railroad provides a really heavy chain or a newer fabric strap on the locomotives for this. You back the head end of the train against the bad order car and wrap the chain or belt around the draft gear of the broken car and the drawbar on the car ahead of it. A figure 8 type of wrap is used since it is self tightening as the slack opens up. The air is cut into the damaged car so if the chain or belt slips off that car and the cars attached to the locomotives will stop and not run back into the cars remaining on the grade. This operation can make for a long night for the crew. After the car is set out and the train is gone the carmen will come out in a truck with a new drawbar and repair the car. If the drawbar is pulled completely out of the car in question, then the crew has to find it and roll it out from between the rails. It si probably beneath a railcar which adds to the difficulty in rolling it out and over the top of one of the rails. The draw head is tall enough to derail a car if it contacts the axle of the cars. Sometimes the shank of the drawbar may tilt upwards and puncture a car going over it while the train stops. If you are "lucky" the drawbar stays coupled to the car ahead of it. Then you have to lift the shank end enough to take the tension off the knuckles so another employee (the engineer is the only one less than a train length away) can pull the pin and the broken drawbar will fall away so you can move it outside of the rails. No, you don't have the parts or tools to put it back into the car it came out of. Are we having fun, yet? Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, April 2, 2005 12:34 PM Thanks for elaborating, Arbfbe--I've been involved with drawbar-related derailments, and have seen the lucky ones on which they've stayed attached, too--another strong argument in favor of shelf couplers! Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply BigJim Member sinceApril 2001 From: Roanoke, VA 2,015 posts Posted by BigJim on Saturday, April 2, 2005 12:55 PM You guys forgot to tell the hardest part about changing a knuckle, trying to get the cotter pin out of the knuckle pin so it can be removed. More times than not the cotter pin is bent all screwy and if you have a dull chisel it can take quiet a while. Now hope that the knuckle pin isn't bent so bad that it can't be removed. OH, did you know you don't even need a knuckle pin? I don't know how many times I've made a cut and the knuckle fell flat on the ground because there was no pin. . Reply 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by mudchicken
23 17 46 11
Originally posted by arbfbe [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, April 2, 2005 9:32 AM I don't know exactly how much a knuckle weighs (I'd guess at least 40 pounds), but they are not easy to carry--no convenient handles to hold onto. I was taught how to do a changeout when I hired out, but all I remember from that is that you remove the knuckle pin and let the old one drop (watch your feet!). Ed's got the correct sequence of things for changing one out. But keep in mind that when the train goes into emergency, you aren't immediately sure what caused it (you aren't even sure everything is on the rails, so you can't attempt to move the train--someone definitely has to make the long walk back). A knuckle is probably the best cause to deal with--if it's a drawbar, you'll be calling for car-department help. Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply arbfbe Member sinceFebruary 2002 910 posts Posted by arbfbe on Saturday, April 2, 2005 11:32 AM dutchrailnut, NO, you would not attempt to put air to the rear of the train and move if backwards without a physical connection. Not to be done on flatland and NEVER to be attempted on any grade. No, the chain or belt for moving a single car without a drawbar would not work either. How long do you think your air connection will last once the slack runs out? This is a totally preposterous idea fraught with too many dangers to comtemplate. Now I just have to wait for someone to post how they see this move done all the time. Reply ValleyX Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 1,103 posts Posted by ValleyX on Saturday, April 2, 2005 11:35 AM Yes, it's unpleasant and thankfully, it doesn't happen all that often. One of the fun parts that no one has mentioned is when the engineer gets to play 20 questions with the dispatcher about why the knuckle failure occurred. Then, there's the fun part where the road foreman of engines gets roused out to go and pull the tapes (or download the computer) so that the company can check and see if the engineer was using proper train handling techniques. If he or she was, no problem but if they take exception to the way the engineer was handling the train, then they're going to hear about it. Reply arbfbe Member sinceFebruary 2002 910 posts Posted by arbfbe on Saturday, April 2, 2005 11:56 AM CShaver Cars with broken drawbars, the really heavy part the knuckle fits into, come in two kinds, the right end and the wrong end. The car with a broken or missing drawbar on the right end is one with the drawbar gone on the end away from the locomotives. The crew just takes that car and all the cars ahead of it to the next siding or back track and sets it out.. If it is a car with the broken drawbar on the end next to the locomotives they have to chain that car to the car ahead of it to take it to the next siding or back track. There is a bit of a lip around the draft gear housing the drawbar fits into. The railroad provides a really heavy chain or a newer fabric strap on the locomotives for this. You back the head end of the train against the bad order car and wrap the chain or belt around the draft gear of the broken car and the drawbar on the car ahead of it. A figure 8 type of wrap is used since it is self tightening as the slack opens up. The air is cut into the damaged car so if the chain or belt slips off that car and the cars attached to the locomotives will stop and not run back into the cars remaining on the grade. This operation can make for a long night for the crew. After the car is set out and the train is gone the carmen will come out in a truck with a new drawbar and repair the car. If the drawbar is pulled completely out of the car in question, then the crew has to find it and roll it out from between the rails. It si probably beneath a railcar which adds to the difficulty in rolling it out and over the top of one of the rails. The draw head is tall enough to derail a car if it contacts the axle of the cars. Sometimes the shank of the drawbar may tilt upwards and puncture a car going over it while the train stops. If you are "lucky" the drawbar stays coupled to the car ahead of it. Then you have to lift the shank end enough to take the tension off the knuckles so another employee (the engineer is the only one less than a train length away) can pull the pin and the broken drawbar will fall away so you can move it outside of the rails. No, you don't have the parts or tools to put it back into the car it came out of. Are we having fun, yet? Reply CShaveRR Member sinceJune 2001 From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois 13,681 posts Posted by CShaveRR on Saturday, April 2, 2005 12:34 PM Thanks for elaborating, Arbfbe--I've been involved with drawbar-related derailments, and have seen the lucky ones on which they've stayed attached, too--another strong argument in favor of shelf couplers! Carl Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!) CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM) Reply BigJim Member sinceApril 2001 From: Roanoke, VA 2,015 posts Posted by BigJim on Saturday, April 2, 2005 12:55 PM You guys forgot to tell the hardest part about changing a knuckle, trying to get the cotter pin out of the knuckle pin so it can be removed. More times than not the cotter pin is bent all screwy and if you have a dull chisel it can take quiet a while. Now hope that the knuckle pin isn't bent so bad that it can't be removed. OH, did you know you don't even need a knuckle pin? I don't know how many times I've made a cut and the knuckle fell flat on the ground because there was no pin. . Reply 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
.
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