See linked stoiry @ U.S. to Impose Two-Person Crew Mandate on Freight Trains (msn.com)
When you get right down to it, Amtrak has been running one person crews virtually since Day 1. Yes there is a conductor on the train, but the engineer is more often than not alone in the cab.
A meaningful metric would be how often (besides calling signals and the like) the services of the conductor are required. Then how many of those instances could be handled by any of the other resources available (most of which have already been discussed).
That said, I'm not opposed to the two "man" rule.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
The so called 'flying squad utility conductor' is a load of bovine excrement. Many of the locations where trains have 'issues' are in locations that are near or actually impossible to reach by other means of transport. The thought of a Engineer leaving the operating cab of his locomotive to inspect and deal with conditions back in his train is unsafe on its face and too many other ways to count.
The Feds have stepped in and saved PSR management from its own lunacy.
RE Amtrak and single man in the lead engine - whenever a Train Message or other Mandatory Directive is issued to that train - if there is not a Conductor in the locomotive cab to copy them - the train must be stopped so the Engineer can copy them. Engineers are not permitted to copy such things while the train is in motion.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD The so called 'flying squad utility conductor' is a load of bovine excrement. Many of the locations where trains have 'issues' are in locations that are near or actually impossible to reach by other means of transport. The thought of a Engineer leaving the operating cab of his locomotive to inspect and deal with conditions back in his train is unsafe on its face and too many other ways to count. The Feds have stepped in and saved PSR management from its own lunacy. RE Amtrak and single man in the lead engine - whenever a Train Message or other Mandatory Directive is issued to that train - if there is not a Conductor in the locomotive cab to copy them - the train must be stopped so the Engineer can copy them. Engineers are not permitted to copy such things while the train is in motion.
Interesting about Amtrak I can't see how this would work safely and legally. On Via, two engineers are in the locomotive cab. At station stops the non-operating engineer exits the cab, in situations I have seen, and basically 'supervises or oversees' the platform activity. Once that activity is near its end, the engineer returns to the locomotive.
Charlie, Chilliwack BC
lenzfamily BaltACD The so called 'flying squad utility conductor' is a load of bovine excrement. Many of the locations where trains have 'issues' are in locations that are near or actually impossible to reach by other means of transport. The thought of a Engineer leaving the operating cab of his locomotive to inspect and deal with conditions back in his train is unsafe on its face and too many other ways to count. The Feds have stepped in and saved PSR management from its own lunacy. RE Amtrak and single man in the lead engine - whenever a Train Message or other Mandatory Directive is issued to that train - if there is not a Conductor in the locomotive cab to copy them - the train must be stopped so the Engineer can copy them. Engineers are not permitted to copy such things while the train is in motion. Interesting about Amtrak I can't see how this would work safely and legally. On Via, two engineers are in the locomotive cab. At station stops the non-operating engineer exits the cab, in situations I have seen, and basically 'supervises or oversees' the platform activity. Once that activity is near its end, the engineer returns to the locomotive. Charlie, Chilliwack BC
As a practical matter - Dispatchers will endeavor to transmit train messages and/or mandatory directives to Amtrak or others with only a engineer in the cab while their trains are making scheduled station stops. However, if a station stop is not in the offing either the Conductor must come to the operating cab or the train must be stopped. These rules apply on CSX - other carriers 'may' have different rules.
BaltACDAs a practical matter - Dispatchers will endeavor to transmit train messages and/or mandatory directives to Amtrak or others with only a engineer in the cab while their trains are making scheduled station stops. However, if a station stop is not in the offing either the Conductor must come to the operating cab or the train must be stopped. These rules apply on CSX - other carriers 'may' have different rules.
Why does the message need to be copied instead of transmitted wirelessly and displayed or printed?
Cut directly to the chase:
49 CFR Part 218 [Docket No. FRA-2021-0032, Notice No. 5], RIN 2130-AC88, Train Crew Size Safety Requirements
greyhounds BaltACD As a practical matter - Dispatchers will endeavor to transmit train messages and/or mandatory directives to Amtrak or others with only a engineer in the cab while their trains are making scheduled station stops. However, if a station stop is not in the offing either the Conductor must come to the operating cab or the train must be stopped. These rules apply on CSX - other carriers 'may' have different rules. Why does the message need to be copied instead of transmitted wirelessly and displayed or printed?
BaltACD As a practical matter - Dispatchers will endeavor to transmit train messages and/or mandatory directives to Amtrak or others with only a engineer in the cab while their trains are making scheduled station stops. However, if a station stop is not in the offing either the Conductor must come to the operating cab or the train must be stopped. These rules apply on CSX - other carriers 'may' have different rules.
Because 'at present' that is not the procedure. To my knowledge locomotives have not been equipped with wireless printers that can be addressed through the CADS. I believe all the Class 1 are using one form or another of CADS to run their properties.
However the communication is made, there must be positive confirmation between Dispatchers and trains that the communication is both received and understood. If display or wireless printer is used, I suspect, the person receiving the communication will be required to verbally repeat the communication over the radio to the Train Dispatcher.
greyhoundsWhy does the message need to be copied instead of transmitted wirelessly and displayed or printed?
It's that word-for-word verification that's the hang-up, I would opine. Simply pressing an "acknowledge" key doesn't guarantee that the directive in question has been read or understood.
It's the railroad version of why aircrews have to read back any communication 'in their own words' -- it's supposed to confirm that they understood it well enough to repeat it.
CYA says it's even more proof if you have to write it out as well as be able to repeat it. And you have written proof if anything 'fails'.
Seems to me that written confirmation of various kinds of flimsy was standard procedure on American railroads. This is no different.
(Of course, SPAFs were mandatory to fill out and keep, too, and we all know how that came out...)
OvermodIt's the railroad version of why aircrews have to read back any communication 'in their own words' -- it's supposed to confirm that they understood it well enough to repeat it. CYA says it's even more proof if you have to write it out as well as be able to repeat it. And you have written proof if anything 'fails'. Seems to me that written confirmation of various kinds of flimsy was standard procedure on American railroads. This is no different. (Of course, SPAFs were mandatory to fill out and keep, too, and we all know how that came out...)
Dealing with the issues both as a Train Order Operator and as a Train Dispatcher. It is amazing that some people can't listen and write what they hear at the same time and then can read what they have written in order to be able to repeat it to the party that originally transmitted it.
The biggest issue, that I have stumbled over during my career, was MofW Personnel wanting a Track Occupancy Authority - in many cases they would have the 'particulars' of the authority already written in their books when the made the request - because of operating conditions the Dispatcher was not able to give them the exact authority they had prewritten in their books - in many cases they would repeat what they had prewritten, not the authority they had actually been given.
Let us talk about a derailment. Worse case. Train "X" derails about 5600 feet behind last loco. Flamable oil Haz Mat is leaking and starting to burn. Some 10 - 20 cars in front of the burning oil is a bunch of TIH is in the train. Now the alone engineer tries to move train but cannot due to emergency brakes applied. Also he cannot back to take up slack. So, he walks to closest safest car, turns off air valve, trys to pull car's pin then walks back to engine still cannot go forward, backs against slack walks back to cut off car, pulls pin and hopes it stays pulled walks back to engine and pulls away with the very hazardous cars.
Now if engineer has a conductor the conductor can walk back bleeding some emergency air from some cars and goes to where it is safe to cut train as engineer start trying to pull away. Once engineer gets train moving conductor boards whatever car he is at and rides away from burning car(s).
BaltACD greyhounds BaltACD As a practical matter - Dispatchers will endeavor to transmit train messages and/or mandatory directives to Amtrak or others with only a engineer in the cab while their trains are making scheduled station stops. However, if a station stop is not in the offing either the Conductor must come to the operating cab or the train must be stopped. These rules apply on CSX - other carriers 'may' have different rules. Why does the message need to be copied instead of transmitted wirelessly and displayed or printed? Because 'at present' that is not the procedure. To my knowledge locomotives have not been equipped with wireless printers that can be addressed through the CADS. I believe all the Class 1 are using one form or another of CADS to run their properties. However the communication is made, there must be positive confirmation between Dispatchers and trains that the communication is both received and understood. If display or wireless printer is used, I suspect, the person receiving the communication will be required to verbally repeat the communication over the radio to the Train Dispatcher.
Track warrants and track bulletins can be transmitted electronically to trains. It can be done through PTC or railroad supplied electronic devices. However, they still need to be copied by a crewmember and then read back to the dispatcher. (You are supposed to read back the instructions received from the hand copied document, not what's on the display screen. This is to ensure that the person copying the instructions didn't make a mistake when writing them out. That has happened.) The requirement remains that this cannont be done by a crewmember at the operating controls of a moving train.
The need for making a hard copy should be obvious. Electronic devices, PTC or hand held, have been known to fail. Should that happen, then human memory would be the only record for the train crew if there is no hard copy.
Jeff
PS. Regarding the railroad issued electronic devices. We were all issued them last year. Told to use them or else. The beginning of this year most of us had to turn them back in. Only those working yard and local jobs were to keep them. It seems that being an enhanced cell phone, they had a cellular service plan. The cost for service for all the devices was said to be a lot more than what they had planned for.
jeffhergert... Jeff PS. Regarding the railroad issued electronic devices. We were all issued them last year. Told to use them or else. The beginning of this year most of us had to turn them back in. Only those working yard and local jobs were to keep them. It seems that being an enhanced cell phone, they had a cellular service plan. The cost for service for all the devices was said to be a lot more than what they had planned for.
For the record, even Hunter Harrison said that he thought 1-man crews are a bad idea in the majority of situations.
Our railway-supplied electronic devices have a tendency to try to update whenever they get a bit of cell signal, and they won't let you use certain apps until the updates are complete. In practice this means that in areas of poor cell service you can lose access to your rulebook in the middle of a trip. I would hate for that to happen to my TGBOs, clearances or track warrants.
Even in the 21st century hard paper copies are still better for some things.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
At least two on board seems like a good idea, even when the amount of work doesn't necessarily call for two people. It's the issue of people working alone for long periods of time.. if something happens there's no fall back, and even a relatively minor setback can quickly turn into something quite bad.
SD70DudeFor the record, even Hunter Harrison said that he thought 1-man crews are a bad idea in the majority of situations. Our railway-supplied electronic devices have a tendency to try to update whenever they get a bit of cell signal, and they won't let you use certain apps until the updates are complete. In practice this means that in areas of poor cell service you can lose access to your rulebook in the middle of a trip. I would hate for that to happen to my TGBOs, clearances or track warrants. Even in the 21st century hard paper copies are still better for some things.
Most anybody that has used a cell phone from a vehicle that is in motion will come across 'dead zones'. The dead zones may actually be someplace where there actually is no cell service - but there are also numerous locations where service exists, however, for what ever the reason signal goes dead - even though cell tower placements indicate there SHOULD be a signal.
From my railroad experience with the railroad radio systems - there are STILL some dead zones. While the company was not using DPU locomotives when I retired, I do know that the company has added a number of 'radio repeaters' to facilitate the operation of DPU locomotives within my old territories.
Just throwing this out for everyone's consideration.
Suppose the FRA said:
"You want one-person trains? OK, we'll go along with that but on one condition, the maximum size of a freight train will be 50 cars and no more. THEN you can have your one-person crews."
I wonder what the reaction might have been?
SD70DudeEven in the 21st century hard paper copies are still better for some things.
The medical professions certainly think so. Even in this day and age they still swear by faxes, they like that hard copy and for various reasons, all good.
Flintlock76I wonder what the reaction might have been?
Of course that was in an age when delivery speed was expected to compete with contemporary OTR truck timing. That's not in the PSR business model any more (and service based on high speed very, very seldom pays its costs in modern freight operation vs. precision JIT...)
Flintlock76 Just throwing this out for everyone's consideration. Suppose the FRA said: "You want one-person trains? OK, we'll go along with that but on one condition, the maximum size of a freight train will be 50 cars and no more. THEN you can have your one-person crews." I wonder what the reaction might have been?
Flintlock76Just throwing this out for everyone's consideration. Suppose the FRA said: "You want one-person trains? OK, we'll go along with that but on one condition, the maximum size of a freight train will be 50 cars and no more. THEN you can have your one-person crews." I wonder what the reaction might have been?
Viewing just car counts - one doesn't understand what is actually happening in the operations.
At present signal separation distances nominally define how big a train is in operational reality. Today the carriers are in the process of spacing signals about THREE MILES apart. If we consider the most basic of signal progressions - Clear, Approach, Stop. Capacity wise it makes little difference it a train is 1500 feet long or 15000 feet long. it takes 2+ blocks behind any train for a following train to get a Clear signal - no matter if the train ahead is 1500 feet or 15000 feet.
If a train is operating on an Approach indication - it must operate in a manner that will allow the train to STOP at the next signal - thus it is not operating at Maximum allowed speed - it makes no difference if the train ahead is 1500 feet or 15000 feet in length.
Crunch time comes, nominally, at two places - destination terminals and crew change locations. Trains longer than the 'receiving' tracks at the destination terminal will block out that yard in the time that is required to yard its entire train. At Crew Change location - you must have an Outbound Crew available and on duty to keep the train moving and the line segment fluid. Most Crew Change locations, in the PSR world, are not much bigger than a Main Track and a Siding Track. With the location only consisting of two tracks - you can only block one track with a train waiting for a crew - if you have two trains waiting for crews at the location - THE LOCATION IS SHUT DOWN!. At times of crew shortage, trains without crews available start getting parked further and further from the Crew Change Location - just to keep one track through the location Open for the trains that are able, for whatever the reasons, through the Crew Change Location.
Anyone who watches the cams at Deshler, OH can identify with the congestion issue. If NWO (the Northwest Ohio intermodal yard) is clogged (which happens all too often) it just cascades out.
Trains often sit on the west yard track at South Desher for hours at a time, either for space at NWO, or waiting for a crew.
SD70DudeFor the record, even Hunter Harrison said that he thought 1-man crews are a bad idea in the majority of situations.
blue streak 1Let us talk about a derailment. Worse case. Train "X" derails about 5600 feet behind last loco. Flamable oil Haz Mat is leaking and starting to burn. Some 10 - 20 cars in front of the burning oil is a bunch of TIH is in the train. Now the alone engineer tries to move train but cannot due to emergency brakes applied. Also he cannot back to take up slack. So, he walks to closest safest car, turns off air valve, trys to pull car's pin then walks back to engine still cannot go forward, backs against slack walks back to cut off car, pulls pin and hopes it stays pulled walks back to engine and pulls away with the very hazardous cars. Now if (the) engineer has a conductor the conductor can walk back bleeding some emergency air from some cars and goes to where it is safe to cut train as engineer start trying to pull away. Once engineer gets train moving conductor boards whatever car he is at and rides away from burning car(s).
EuclidI don’t think the industry would accept the offer.
Federal orders aren't "make a deal".
I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually get a train-size limit as well.
Granted these can all be rescinded with the net administration, but buckle in, contract negotiations are going to be fun. Or probably lack of fun, since there will be no negotiation and it will go straight to the PEB.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmann I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually get a train-size limit as well.
It is an election year ... everyone hold on!!
zugmannI wouldn't be surprised if we eventually get a train-size limit as well.
Probably do better selling it as a way to shorten the public's wait at crossings than any safety aspect...
[quote user="tree68"]
When you get right down to it, Amtrak has been running one person crews virtually since Day 1. Yes there is a conductor on the train, but the engineer is more often than not alone in the cab."
Amtrak did not start with one person engine crews. I worked as a fireman on the Capitol Limited at least into the mid 1980's.
Mark Vinski
Doesn't amtrak limit one-person engine cabs to runs shorter than 6 or 8 hours?
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