diningcar Near plant City, FL six people were killed today at a crossing that only had a stop sign and crossarms. It appears the driver did not attempt to stop and the train horn, while activated, did not get the driver's attention.
Near plant City, FL six people were killed today at a crossing that only had a stop sign and crossarms. It appears the driver did not attempt to stop and the train horn, while activated, did not get the driver's attention.
This article says there is video of the accident. OLI neeeds to show it every where if the report is correct.
‘Devastating’: Train and car collide in Hillsborough, killing six (tampabay.com)
Is this track one tthat the Star uses?
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/RIR2311.pdf
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
DOT 624 306E MP 857.61 PRIVATE CROSSING no accident history
(Jim Leffler Circle is not a dedicated public street/ crossing) ... Somewhere in Jax in the bowels of the CSX engineering and real estate offices people are scrambling to uncover how the crossing came to be. If the contract/license agreement is not current and/or there is no restrictive covenant in the original vesting deed (SCL/ACL and its Plant System predecessors), the crossing will be barricaded and removed. If the ambulance chasers get involved, the crossing will be gone even sooner. (the land parcel is hardly landlocked - it has access to two other public ways on its boundaries. Would be interested to see if the deceased had any relationship to the crossing at all.)
duplicate
BaltACDMurder/Suicide by Train
I tend to agree. I have to believe that even if the driver was unaware of the oncoming train, others in the vehicle would have noticed. One occupant survived. His account will be enlightening.
The crossing is basically a driveway leading to several houses. 28.02564 -82.06316
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
York1 diningcar Near plant City, FL six people were killed today at a crossing that only had a stop sign and crossarms. It appears the driver did not attempt to stop and the train horn, while activated, did not get the driver's attention. On another site, it said the car slowly pulled through the crossing, with both the train and other cars at the crossing honking horns.
On another site, it said the car slowly pulled through the crossing, with both the train and other cars at the crossing honking horns.
Murder/Suicide by Train
diningcarNear plant City, FL six people were killed today at a crossing that only had a stop sign and crossarms. It appears the driver did not attempt to stop and the train horn, while activated, did not get the driver's attention.
York1 John
Apart from railway crossings, trains pass through unrestricted built up areas where kids play on the tracks and people walk their dogs. The engineer needs to be able to use the horn.
OvermodAs usual you're right, but it appears that the MUTCD semantics of the flashing yellow arrow are being extensively misunderstood by drivers who haven't learned specifically what it means in their driver's ed or testing.
A lot of people don't know what a red light is, so I think it's a lost cause.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmannI know MD used flashing red for left turn yield, but I thought the flashing yellow was the new and improved MUCTIDEIEIO way of standardizing that?
I think the arrow color change from flashing green to yellow to red is supposed to model the alert given for regular traffic lights as to when the opposing signals will go to green, and in my opinion are a serious improvement on nothing but flashing yellow for 'permitted turn' after a green arrow has gone out. A number of the lights with green arrows in my area have, interestingly, gone to having a 2-3 second full red on all signals between the time the green/yellow arrow goes out and the time main signals in the direction of approach in both directions goes green -- this does two things: preclude collisions from people 'timing the light' in the other direction, and people getting out into the intersection to assert the right of way one or two cars back from the line when the arrow goes out. Note that a red arrow, whether flashing or not, wouldn't indicate to me that it is an 'optional proceed' turn signal.
I'm nut sure -- and haven't been sure since the yellow arrow started being used -- what a correct left-turn-permitted-when-judged-safe indicator ought to be. Perhaps alternating red and yellow flashing would get the desired message across without words. Who's got a better answer?
samfp1943 Off Topic/ [Maybe not?] So here we are.... No enforced boarders, Free Govt ID's for all , Driver's Licenses to all comers, voter registrations to all that want to vote.... And the only thing ,we are worried about, around here, is the noise from air horns on diesel locomotives. Maybe, we should arm those locomotive crews with something else, to warn crossing traffic of their approach ? Howitzers, or Phasers? Meantime, auto insurers will be playing escaladio on thier rates. Mark me down as cynical...
Off Topic/ [Maybe not?]
So here we are.... No enforced boarders, Free Govt ID's for all , Driver's Licenses to all comers, voter registrations to all that want to vote....
And the only thing ,we are worried about, around here, is the noise from air horns on diesel locomotives. Maybe, we should arm those locomotive crews with something else, to warn crossing traffic of their approach ?
Howitzers, or Phasers? Meantime, auto insurers will be playing escaladio on thier rates. Mark me down as cynical...
Wow...
BaltACDThe cycle for the left turn light will start at green for 10 seconds or so, flashing yellow for about 5 seconds, flashing red for what seems like a minute or more
Why flashing yellow than flashing red? I know MD used flashing red for left turn yield, but I thought the flashing yellow was the new and improved MUCTIDEIEIO way of standardizing that?
samfp1943Maybe, we should arm those locomotive crews with something else, to warn crossing traffic of their approach ?
Yeah, I don't want any of that crap. I'd be happy if we'd just install more crossing gates.
samfp1943Howitzers, or Phasers?
And this isn't a border (note sp.) or licensing forum, although there's plenty of government-related discussion possible in a legitimate railroad context here.
tree68 jeffhergert It seems like US drivers don't give crossing warning signs the same respect they give to other traffic signs and signals. Come sit in my driveway some time and see how many people "totally pause" at the stop sign across the street... Some just blow through while looking over their shoulder to make sure nothing is coming (the intersection is at a slight angle).
jeffhergert It seems like US drivers don't give crossing warning signs the same respect they give to other traffic signs and signals.
Come sit in my driveway some time and see how many people "totally pause" at the stop sign across the street... Some just blow through while looking over their shoulder to make sure nothing is coming (the intersection is at a slight angle).
Locally there is a traffic light for a 4 lane highway that has a left turn lane for traffic to enter a Interstate entrance ramp. The cycle for the left turn light will start at green for 10 seconds or so, flashing yellow for about 5 seconds, flashing red for what seems like a minute or more and then it goes to solid red for 10 or 15 seconds and then goes green to repeat the cycle.
I can't count the number of people I have seen run the solid red - thinking it was still flashing.
jeffhergertIt seems like US drivers don't give crossing warning signs the same respect they give to other traffic signs and signals.
traisessive1Your comment about the power outage doesn't compare as crossing bungalows have battery backups for power outages.
I was referring to crossings without automatic protection, of which there are many. Without an audible warning, it wouldn't be pretty, as I doubt most drivers do more than complain about how rough the crossing is when going over one. Look both ways? Pshaw!
Looking up statistics for grade or level crossing accidents between the US, Canada, and Europe, the US by far has the most.
The information I found shows for 2022 the US had 2197 grade crossing accidents of all kinds. Not all resulted in injury or death. The number of deaths was low, IIRC 234, compared to the total number.
Canada for 2022 had 127 grade crossing accidents, again not all resulting in injury or death. I think total deaths was 57. (I saw, but didn't read, a link to an article that Canadian crossing accidents seemed more likely during winter. Probably due to drivers not being able to stop due to road conditions in winter.)
Europe had 350 level crossing accidents for the last year given. Not all resulting in death. I must say, the European numbers may only be for accidents that resulted in at least injury. Accidents where no injuries or deaths happened may not have been counted.
I'm sure the driving culture in each country has something to do with obeying crossing protections. It seems like US drivers don't give crossing warning signs the same respect they give to other traffic signs and signals.
Certainly if gates and lights won't stop someone from becoming a statistic the horn won't either. However, it does help with liability in that all warning possible was given.
Jeff
traisessive1... While I enjoy blowing the horn, it becomes more obvious year-after-year that the horn does nothing at properly protected crossings.
While I enjoy blowing the horn, it becomes more obvious year-after-year that the horn does nothing at properly protected crossings.
The only 'proper' crossing protection is crossing elimination.
tree68 What are their accident rates? I would opine that not blowing the horn would be a major culture shift for the North American motorist. Especially at rural crossings lacking gates and lights. Ever been in a city when there's a power outage? Every stoplighted intersection is supposed to be treated like a four way stop, right? Does that happen? Besides, aside from annoying a few people, what harm does blowing the horn do? And many countries outside of North America do sound the horn at crossings. Not the North American two longs, a short, and a long, but they do sound the horn.
What are their accident rates?
I would opine that not blowing the horn would be a major culture shift for the North American motorist. Especially at rural crossings lacking gates and lights.
Ever been in a city when there's a power outage? Every stoplighted intersection is supposed to be treated like a four way stop, right? Does that happen?
Besides, aside from annoying a few people, what harm does blowing the horn do?
And many countries outside of North America do sound the horn at crossings. Not the North American two longs, a short, and a long, but they do sound the horn.
You wouldn't have a horn exemption at a crossing without Automatic Warning Devices.
Your comment about the power outage doesn't compare as crossing bungalows have battery backups for power outages. Our rules state we are to turn in crossings observed to be operating on battery power and the RTC will then have trains manually protect crossings until power is back on.
I've spent half a career on an engine now. While I enjoy blowing the horn, it becomes more obvious year-after-year that the horn does nothing at properly protected crossings.
10000 feet and no dynamics? Today is going to be a good day ...
jeffhergert By work zone, I take that to mean work protected by track bulletin/form b/etc., some kind of notice issued to trains. A lot of work by MOW/signal is done without such notice. Many tasks are done with lookout protection only. People working under those conditions would have no advance warning. Even in protected zones, some activities come to a halt some don't. People are still milling about, some near machinery, that even though just idling, are still loud. Jeff
By work zone, I take that to mean work protected by track bulletin/form b/etc., some kind of notice issued to trains. A lot of work by MOW/signal is done without such notice. Many tasks are done with lookout protection only.
People working under those conditions would have no advance warning. Even in protected zones, some activities come to a halt some don't. People are still milling about, some near machinery, that even though just idling, are still loud.
Correct.
The CROR has no requirement to sound the horn for trackside workers. A foreman in charge of a TOP or Rule 42 may instruct you to inside of his limits but for any other time there are trackside workers there is no requirement.
I've found it interesting in our town which has a quiet zone line and a non-quiet zone line how trains on the quiet line move through without you realizing it.
traisessive1 mudchicken Nope - Not buying your narrow view of reality. Really hope you meet a trackman or carman that is aware of your comment. There are plenty of others that rely on those sounds to know what's going on around them. In Canada, the horn is NOT required to be sounded for workers near the tracks unless it is specifically asked for by a foreman in charge of a work zone. It's not needed.
mudchicken Nope - Not buying your narrow view of reality. Really hope you meet a trackman or carman that is aware of your comment. There are plenty of others that rely on those sounds to know what's going on around them.
Nope - Not buying your narrow view of reality. Really hope you meet a trackman or carman that is aware of your comment. There are plenty of others that rely on those sounds to know what's going on around them.
In Canada, the horn is NOT required to be sounded for workers near the tracks unless it is specifically asked for by a foreman in charge of a work zone.
It's not needed.
CMStPnPProper is a steel pole that descends across the entire road on both sides that would decapitate everyone in the car if they drove under it. Of course to make everyone happy they should put the collapsable tines under the gate that extend when it is descended to prevent cars and motorcycles from skidding under the gate as well.
As I recall, someone experimented with bollards that rose up out of the road. Impossible to drive through, but I think they had issues with dirt and salt in the mechanism.
I've seen videos from elsewhere showing a gate that slid completely across the road. It was an urban setting - lots of scooters and pedestrians, too.
BaltACDI had numerous conversations with company Claim Agents over the years I was employed. From those conversations, I would venture railroads have never killed old or inferior livestock. Every animal has been at least a County Champion for its class if not a State Champion. Railroad only run over the best.
I remember a cartoon in Mad Magazine wherein a farmer tied antlers to a cow, then collected from the hunters, who thought they saw a deer in the distance and shot it... Of course, the antlers were nowhere in sight by the time the hunters tracked down their kill...
There might be some Bull in those kill stats.
timzEveryone agrees no horn is needed if the xing is properly gated. Only argument is how much gating is needed, to be considered "proper".
Proper is a steel pole that descends across the entire road on both sides that would decapitate everyone in the car if they drove under it. Of course to make everyone happy they should put the collapsable tines under the gate that extend when it is descended to prevent cars and motorcycles from skidding under the gate as well.
traisessive1If Europe can run 100s of trains a day through level crossings without the horn, I think Canada and the U.S. can run 20-50 a day through our crossings without the horn.
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