tree68 What are their accident rates? I would opine that not blowing the horn would be a major culture shift for the North American motorist. Especially at rural crossings lacking gates and lights. Ever been in a city when there's a power outage? Every stoplighted intersection is supposed to be treated like a four way stop, right? Does that happen? Besides, aside from annoying a few people, what harm does blowing the horn do? And many countries outside of North America do sound the horn at crossings. Not the North American two longs, a short, and a long, but they do sound the horn.
What are their accident rates?
I would opine that not blowing the horn would be a major culture shift for the North American motorist. Especially at rural crossings lacking gates and lights.
Ever been in a city when there's a power outage? Every stoplighted intersection is supposed to be treated like a four way stop, right? Does that happen?
Besides, aside from annoying a few people, what harm does blowing the horn do?
And many countries outside of North America do sound the horn at crossings. Not the North American two longs, a short, and a long, but they do sound the horn.
You wouldn't have a horn exemption at a crossing without Automatic Warning Devices.
Your comment about the power outage doesn't compare as crossing bungalows have battery backups for power outages. Our rules state we are to turn in crossings observed to be operating on battery power and the RTC will then have trains manually protect crossings until power is back on.
I've spent half a career on an engine now. While I enjoy blowing the horn, it becomes more obvious year-after-year that the horn does nothing at properly protected crossings.
10000 feet and no dynamics? Today is going to be a good day ...
traisessive1... While I enjoy blowing the horn, it becomes more obvious year-after-year that the horn does nothing at properly protected crossings.
While I enjoy blowing the horn, it becomes more obvious year-after-year that the horn does nothing at properly protected crossings.
The only 'proper' crossing protection is crossing elimination.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Looking up statistics for grade or level crossing accidents between the US, Canada, and Europe, the US by far has the most.
The information I found shows for 2022 the US had 2197 grade crossing accidents of all kinds. Not all resulted in injury or death. The number of deaths was low, IIRC 234, compared to the total number.
Canada for 2022 had 127 grade crossing accidents, again not all resulting in injury or death. I think total deaths was 57. (I saw, but didn't read, a link to an article that Canadian crossing accidents seemed more likely during winter. Probably due to drivers not being able to stop due to road conditions in winter.)
Europe had 350 level crossing accidents for the last year given. Not all resulting in death. I must say, the European numbers may only be for accidents that resulted in at least injury. Accidents where no injuries or deaths happened may not have been counted.
I'm sure the driving culture in each country has something to do with obeying crossing protections. It seems like US drivers don't give crossing warning signs the same respect they give to other traffic signs and signals.
Certainly if gates and lights won't stop someone from becoming a statistic the horn won't either. However, it does help with liability in that all warning possible was given.
Jeff
traisessive1Your comment about the power outage doesn't compare as crossing bungalows have battery backups for power outages.
I was referring to crossings without automatic protection, of which there are many. Without an audible warning, it wouldn't be pretty, as I doubt most drivers do more than complain about how rough the crossing is when going over one. Look both ways? Pshaw!
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
jeffhergertIt seems like US drivers don't give crossing warning signs the same respect they give to other traffic signs and signals.
Come sit in my driveway some time and see how many people "totally pause" at the stop sign across the street... Some just blow through while looking over their shoulder to make sure nothing is coming (the intersection is at a slight angle).
tree68 jeffhergert It seems like US drivers don't give crossing warning signs the same respect they give to other traffic signs and signals. Come sit in my driveway some time and see how many people "totally pause" at the stop sign across the street... Some just blow through while looking over their shoulder to make sure nothing is coming (the intersection is at a slight angle).
jeffhergert It seems like US drivers don't give crossing warning signs the same respect they give to other traffic signs and signals.
Locally there is a traffic light for a 4 lane highway that has a left turn lane for traffic to enter a Interstate entrance ramp. The cycle for the left turn light will start at green for 10 seconds or so, flashing yellow for about 5 seconds, flashing red for what seems like a minute or more and then it goes to solid red for 10 or 15 seconds and then goes green to repeat the cycle.
I can't count the number of people I have seen run the solid red - thinking it was still flashing.
Off Topic/ [Maybe not?]
So here we are.... No enforced boarders, Free Govt ID's for all , Driver's Licenses to all comers, voter registrations to all that want to vote....
And the only thing ,we are worried about, around here, is the noise from air horns on diesel locomotives. Maybe, we should arm those locomotive crews with something else, to warn crossing traffic of their approach ?
Howitzers, or Phasers? Meantime, auto insurers will be playing escaladio on thier rates. Mark me down as cynical...
samfp1943Howitzers, or Phasers?
And this isn't a border (note sp.) or licensing forum, although there's plenty of government-related discussion possible in a legitimate railroad context here.
samfp1943Maybe, we should arm those locomotive crews with something else, to warn crossing traffic of their approach ?
Yeah, I don't want any of that crap. I'd be happy if we'd just install more crossing gates.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
BaltACDThe cycle for the left turn light will start at green for 10 seconds or so, flashing yellow for about 5 seconds, flashing red for what seems like a minute or more
Why flashing yellow than flashing red? I know MD used flashing red for left turn yield, but I thought the flashing yellow was the new and improved MUCTIDEIEIO way of standardizing that?
samfp1943 Off Topic/ [Maybe not?] So here we are.... No enforced boarders, Free Govt ID's for all , Driver's Licenses to all comers, voter registrations to all that want to vote.... And the only thing ,we are worried about, around here, is the noise from air horns on diesel locomotives. Maybe, we should arm those locomotive crews with something else, to warn crossing traffic of their approach ? Howitzers, or Phasers? Meantime, auto insurers will be playing escaladio on thier rates. Mark me down as cynical...
Wow...
zugmannI know MD used flashing red for left turn yield, but I thought the flashing yellow was the new and improved MUCTIDEIEIO way of standardizing that?
I think the arrow color change from flashing green to yellow to red is supposed to model the alert given for regular traffic lights as to when the opposing signals will go to green, and in my opinion are a serious improvement on nothing but flashing yellow for 'permitted turn' after a green arrow has gone out. A number of the lights with green arrows in my area have, interestingly, gone to having a 2-3 second full red on all signals between the time the green/yellow arrow goes out and the time main signals in the direction of approach in both directions goes green -- this does two things: preclude collisions from people 'timing the light' in the other direction, and people getting out into the intersection to assert the right of way one or two cars back from the line when the arrow goes out. Note that a red arrow, whether flashing or not, wouldn't indicate to me that it is an 'optional proceed' turn signal.
I'm nut sure -- and haven't been sure since the yellow arrow started being used -- what a correct left-turn-permitted-when-judged-safe indicator ought to be. Perhaps alternating red and yellow flashing would get the desired message across without words. Who's got a better answer?
OvermodAs usual you're right, but it appears that the MUTCD semantics of the flashing yellow arrow are being extensively misunderstood by drivers who haven't learned specifically what it means in their driver's ed or testing.
A lot of people don't know what a red light is, so I think it's a lost cause.
Apart from railway crossings, trains pass through unrestricted built up areas where kids play on the tracks and people walk their dogs. The engineer needs to be able to use the horn.
Near plant City, FL six people were killed today at a crossing that only had a stop sign and crossarms. It appears the driver did not attempt to stop and the train horn, while activated, did not get the driver's attention.
diningcarNear plant City, FL six people were killed today at a crossing that only had a stop sign and crossarms. It appears the driver did not attempt to stop and the train horn, while activated, did not get the driver's attention.
On another site, it said the car slowly pulled through the crossing, with both the train and other cars at the crossing honking horns.
York1 John
I asked my doctor if I gave up delicious food and all alcohol, would I live longer? He said, "No, but it will seem longer."
York1 diningcar Near plant City, FL six people were killed today at a crossing that only had a stop sign and crossarms. It appears the driver did not attempt to stop and the train horn, while activated, did not get the driver's attention. On another site, it said the car slowly pulled through the crossing, with both the train and other cars at the crossing honking horns.
diningcar Near plant City, FL six people were killed today at a crossing that only had a stop sign and crossarms. It appears the driver did not attempt to stop and the train horn, while activated, did not get the driver's attention.
Murder/Suicide by Train
BaltACDMurder/Suicide by Train
I tend to agree. I have to believe that even if the driver was unaware of the oncoming train, others in the vehicle would have noticed. One occupant survived. His account will be enlightening.
The crossing is basically a driveway leading to several houses. 28.02564 -82.06316
duplicate
DOT 624 306E MP 857.61 PRIVATE CROSSING no accident history
(Jim Leffler Circle is not a dedicated public street/ crossing) ... Somewhere in Jax in the bowels of the CSX engineering and real estate offices people are scrambling to uncover how the crossing came to be. If the contract/license agreement is not current and/or there is no restrictive covenant in the original vesting deed (SCL/ACL and its Plant System predecessors), the crossing will be barricaded and removed. If the ambulance chasers get involved, the crossing will be gone even sooner. (the land parcel is hardly landlocked - it has access to two other public ways on its boundaries. Would be interested to see if the deceased had any relationship to the crossing at all.)
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/RIR2311.pdf
This article says there is video of the accident. OLI neeeds to show it every where if the report is correct.
‘Devastating’: Train and car collide in Hillsborough, killing six (tampabay.com)
Is this track one tthat the Star uses?
The description given with the video says "collided with the train and being fliped".
I interpret this to mean the train was already across the road crossing and the vehicle ran into the side of a moving train.
diningcar The description given with the video says "collided with the train and being fliped". I interpret this to mean the train was already across the road crossing and the vehicle ran into the side of a moving train.
All other descriptions I could find indicate that vehicle was moving slowly across the crossing and was struck. This would fit with the description of the vehicle as looking like a crushed soda can.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/24/us/plant-city-florida-train-suv-crash.html
So sad. Another photo I saw shows the stop signs (not just a crossbuck) at the private crossing. Don't know in this case but see this every day. So many people don't follow the rules of the road. Either they think they're above traffic laws or in such a hurry.
Stop signs at a grade crossing tend to be ignored. Years ago, a friend of mine was visiting family in the South and observed that nobody stopped at grade crossings with stop signs or blinking red lights.
A possible explanation would be that he was advised by another passenger to go very slow out of an abundance of caution along with a warning that, “the crossing is unusually dangerous, so go slow.” So he took that advice and acted on it, but did not focus it on the right subject. Instead he looked straight ahead as though the danger was on the crossing deck itself, in other words, a dangerous “crossing.”
Gramp So sad. Another photo I saw shows the stop signs (not just a crossbuck) at the private crossing. Don't know in this case but see this every day. So many people don't follow the rules of the road. Either they think they're above traffic laws or in such a hurry.
It's a railroad crossing. They evidently don't think that a stop sign or yield sign means the same thing at crossing. (I bet most don't even know the crossbuck sign by itself is a yield sign.) Most wouldn't think of not stopping at a stop sign at an intersection, even if the view for all approaching routes was clear for a mile and there wasn't a car in sight.
Not so at a railroad crossing. They may slow down, more out of fear that the crossing will be rough and may even glance down the tracks. Or maybe not. I think some think they will hear a train's horn if there is a train closely approaching.
That may not always be the case. If the wind is blowing hard in the wrong direction, it may carry the sound away from the crossing. Newer cars are more sound proofed making it harder to hear outside warnings. (There have been articles about emergency vehicle siren's not being heard by drivers.) With or without better sound proofed cars, there's more often than not a radio or other sound system playing. There's also the possibility of being engrossed in conversation with passengers or on a cell phone.
I don't know how to change driver's attitudes towards crossings.
Jeff, people in our town regularly flaunt stop signs at street crossings these days. You have to really drive defensively.
jeffhergert... That may not always be the case. If the wind is blowing hard in the wrong direction, it may carry the sound away from the crossing. Newer cars are more sound proofed making it harder to hear outside warnings. (There have been articles about emergency vehicle siren's not being heard by drivers.) With or without better sound proofed cars, there's more often than not a radio or other sound system playing. There's also the possibility of being engrossed in conversation with passengers or on a cell phone. I don't know how to change driver's attitudes towards crossings. Jeff
Note that the vehicle in the 'accident' was a 2020 Escalade - being a Cadillac product, I suspect it was better insulated from outside noise than most vehicles.
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