What's scariest for people like my company that are railroad customers isn't that cars are being found with the defects is the sheer amount of defects that are getting through to us that we have to fix before we can legally release the car back to the railroads. Just last week in SC on CSX we got a covered hopper in a SIT yard that we are going to have to scrap instead of returning to the railroad. We found a visible crack in the truck support plate that was so freaking old it had rust. I got the word today that the car broke in 2 pieces. The ironic part is this one was owned by the CSX and less than a decade old. We're wondering if it wasn't on phosphate duty before being put in our SIT fleet.
jeffhergertdon't know if it rose to the level of a Federal defect, but think it might. Otherwise how could railroad A bad order, repair and charge railroad B. Now I highly doubt that the FRA was trying to open knuckles in a departure yard. It does show that things that are annoyances to the untrained eye may be defects to the trained eye with an agenda.
It is, and yes, they do. FRA guys will try to pop open the end knuckle on a car here, and if it doesn't open: it's a shop.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
jeffhergert... Jeff PS. I think the name of the thread should be "won't fix instead of can't fix..." It's a conscious choice to cut back in the mechanical department. We're not talking about a Rock Island or Milwaukee Road (and others close to the brink) with a very tight money situation, but the UP, a darling of Wall Street. Although some of the things being done remind me of practices done by the RI or MILW in the late 1970s.
Jeff
PS. I think the name of the thread should be "won't fix instead of can't fix..." It's a conscious choice to cut back in the mechanical department. We're not talking about a Rock Island or Milwaukee Road (and others close to the brink) with a very tight money situation, but the UP, a darling of Wall Street. Although some of the things being done remind me of practices done by the RI or MILW in the late 1970s.
Seems as all it takes to be a Wall Street Darling is to cut back on all forms of maintenance and pass off the results as shareholder value - until the place gets to gridlock or blows up. The PSR way!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
As an example for bad ordering a car. This happened 10 or 12 years ago and the guy who told me this is retired.
He was training a class of new hires out in the yard. They were learning to make joints. (Coupling cars together, not the kind that can be smoked:) He went to open the knuckle on a car. Now when you lift the cut (uncoupling) lever it's supposed to open the knuckle. If it does, it often isn't open enough and you still have to reach in. This particular car, a foreign owned car, the cut lever didn't even try to open the knuckle. Also, not unusual.
A car man was nearby and saw this. He immediately bad ordered the car, and told my now retired friend that they just made the railroad $50, or whatever the repair price was. Railroads have an agreed price arrangement for minor repairs, and this was billable to the owner.
My friend, who had 30 years in at the time never knew that such a common defect was subject to being bad ordered. I don't know if it rose to the level of a Federal defect, but think it might. Otherwise how could railroad A bad order, repair and charge railroad B.
Now I highly doubt that the FRA was trying to open knuckles in a departure yard. It does show that things that are annoyances to the untrained eye may be defects to the trained eye with an agenda.
jeffhergert... Also, I bet a good percentage of the bad orders were foreign or (especially) private owned cars. The FRA would be looking at all cars, not just UP owned ones. Jeff
Also, I bet a good percentage of the bad orders were foreign or (especially) private owned cars. The FRA would be looking at all cars, not just UP owned ones.
Observation from the few trains I do see passing. Carriers are backing themselves out of car ownership. I see MANY formerly carrier owned car now moving with Private reporting marks. I have no idea what the financial arrangements are with the change in ownership. With PSR aims being what they are, selling off part(s) of the car fleet would create a one time income stream, and additionally would shift maintenance re$pon$ibitie$ to the private owner with the carriers charging the owner the standard charges for necessary repairs.
CSSHEGEWISCH BaltACD CMStPnP zugmann t said the FRA focused on the east departure yard. Wow that means those trains would have been headed through some major population centers of the Midwest. There are 'major metropolitan centers' between North Platte and Chicago? There is a reason the area has been termed 'Fly Over' territory. I would think that Omaha and Des Moines count as "major metro centers"
BaltACD CMStPnP zugmann t said the FRA focused on the east departure yard. Wow that means those trains would have been headed through some major population centers of the Midwest. There are 'major metropolitan centers' between North Platte and Chicago? There is a reason the area has been termed 'Fly Over' territory.
CMStPnP zugmann t said the FRA focused on the east departure yard. Wow that means those trains would have been headed through some major population centers of the Midwest.
zugmann t said the FRA focused on the east departure yard.
Wow that means those trains would have been headed through some major population centers of the Midwest.
There are 'major metropolitan centers' between North Platte and Chicago?
There is a reason the area has been termed 'Fly Over' territory.
I would think that Omaha and Des Moines count as "major metro centers"
Omaha maybe, unless it goes the "short way" via the Blair Sub. It would still touch the "High Threat Urban Area" zone (within 10 miles of the city limits with the population threshold. Nothing but corn and bean fields, but still in the zone.
Des Moines not at all. Would touch the south end of Cedar Rapids.
Also, not everything going east goes to Chicago. There are manifests going to Kansas City and beyond, too.
I do think that some of the bad orders may have been things like a bent grab iron, etc. Stuff that meets the criteria for bad ordering the car, but usually get the "we'll fix it later" treatment.
Shadow the Cats ownerI can tell you this much keep it up and the FRA will make an example of one of these class 1 railroads.
I've been hearing that my whole career.
It's always "the next big one".
Shadow the Cats ownerScrew the investors. They are literally playing with fire.
They don't care, and neither do the folks pushing PSR. As long as they get their money out of it, they're happy. If they can't milk the railroads, they'll find someone else.
It always bugs me to see some well known enterprise bought by an "investment group." All too often, that simply signals the beginning of the end.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
What will it take for the railroad CEOs to get it through their skulls that you can't cut your way to freaking super efficient service. You have to spend money to make it. Just yesterday one of our outlying SIT yards in SC had a delivery made by CSX of a resin that couldn't get wet at all. It was interchanged to CSX off the UP in St Louis. It is ruined due to missing hatch on top of the freaking car. Just how in the heck did both railroads miss that. It's only a million dollar amount of resin that they are going to have to pay for.
Screw the investors. They are literally playing with fire. I'm hearing from my hubby's cousin that's in the reinsurance business that the little incident in East Palestine Ohio is going to be carnage for the NS. His cousin has heard estimates in the 20 to 30 billion dollar range just for the environmental cleanup and possibly another 100 to 150 billion in lawsuits by the time all is said and done. What are the investors going to say about this when it comes out that spending about 200 million more a quarter could have saved up to 180 billion.
Shadow the Cats owner...actually fixed what was needing to be repaired.
But, but, the investors!
If my carrier had a 20% OOS rate which is what a FRA defect is my boss would be out of BUSINESS in less than a year. The UP is going not a problem. Thinking like this is why derailments like East Palestine OH happen. They have gutted the maintaince people to the point that no one can fix issues. I can tell you this much keep it up and the FRA will make an example of one of these class 1 railroads. I dreading the next major derailment that could have been prevented if only the class 1's instead of trying to gut maintance actually fixed what was needing to be repaired.
So the FRA found a 20% reportable failure rate just in the cars at Bailey Yard in North Platte if I was reading this right. Excuse me for not saying that I was surprised at this. But instead of trying to fix the problems they were trying to run off the freaking inspectors. If my boss had a 20 percent failure rate on roadside inspections I could safely say these 4 things would happen in a very very short time period. 1st our safety rating would be lower than the Samuel B Robert's grave in the Pacific ocean. 2nd all our trucks would be guests of the DOT all over the USA every time they come in range of an open scale. 3rd most of our driver's would be gone for better carriers and 4th the same with our customers as well since we would lose our hazmat certification and be unable for specialized services anymore.
Crap like this is why East Palestine Ohio happened earlier this year and still the railroads haven't gotten the message that cutting the maintenance department is a smart thing.
zugmannt said the FRA focused on the east departure yard.
i have written up many locomotives, and managment dose get upset when i bring it to their attention, it's than their responsibility. part of the problem is other enginners not properly writting up power at the end of the shift, along with a shortage of properly trained mechanical people (company's fault). power is pencil wipped, than i get it, come on now, it's like shooting fish in a barrel, burnt out headlights, ditch lights, bad brake shoes, non operating bells and horn, oil and fuel leaks everywhere, how about non operating ac and a overflowing crapper, yes i do work for a class 1, even a blind man can find defects, I welcome the FRA, wish their were more out here.
blue streak 1dpeltier You may be on to something. Baily is a good place to find many car defects. The routings and locations where the cars came from can give a snapshot of locations that might have not done proper inspections as well.
Reading the letter, it said the FRA focused on the east departure yard. Not knowing UP operations at that yard, I'm assuming those cars are inspected on those tracks? Was the FRA inspection before or after the presumed(?) UP inspections?
Or were these cars being block swapped?
dpeltier You may be on to something. Baily is a good place to find many car defects. The routings and locations where the cars came from can give a snapshot of locations that might have not done proper inspections as well.
Now the loco discrepapncies would partially fall under those parameters.
EDIT: These results may cause the FRA to take a hard look at industry wide inspection practices?
Change in rules? or is more of a "by the book" inspector?
Our county got a new Fire Inspector that cited things that have been in place for decades.
jeffhergert UP might be in the spotlight, but I'd bet the FRA could decend on any major terminal on any other class one and find similar conditions.
UP might be in the spotlight, but I'd bet the FRA could decend on any major terminal on any other class one and find similar conditions.
FRA said they found defects on something like 20% of all freight cars, which was "twice the national average". Let's think about the implications there.
There is no way all l those cars developed defects since the last time they were inspected. Most of those defects were already missed once before they got to Bailey Yard. Many of the cars almost certainly originated outside the UP system (interchange, short line, run-through unit trains, etc.) - so many of those effects "should have" been caught by someone before they even got to the UP.
In fact, for the FRA to find 20% defects instead of 10% defects almost seems to make it impossible that the difference was solely due to UP's practices, let alone due to UP's practices at a single yard. Even if every other place was missing only the "normal" 10% of all defects, that would imply that 10% of all cars developed defects between there and Bailey. In my own personal opinion, it sure looks like the FRA MUST have been doing something different during this inspection (i.e. they simply must have been pickier).
Further thoughts: The fact that FRA typically finds 10% when they come to visit means that somewhere around 10% of the fleet is probably running around with a condition that FRA inspectors would call a defect (if they were to do a visual inspection).
Is that a safety problem? We don't know. The question is, are the "defects" that the FRA catches on their inspections the defects that actually cause derailments and / or employee injuries? For instance, if the FRA is catching cases of insufficient side bearing clearance - which caused 143 reportable derailments in the last 15 years - then they are contributing to safety. If they are writing defects for "bent sill step", which - from the sketchy data available on the FRA's website - appears to have been implicated in maybe 1-3 injuries over the last 15 years, then maybe not so much.
Dan
(Because I am speaking about a competitor, i am required to tell you that I am a BNSF employee, the opinions above are strictly my own, and I am not representing BNSF.)
BaltACD Overmod I got the impression that the "problem" was that the FRA conducted an inspection 'blitz', perhaps a new and unannounced inspection priority, where large numbers of people descended simultaneously looking for (and evidently finding) enough defects to severely clog operations within a very short timeframe. I can almost have sympathy for the frustration of the UP people who are now on record as asking the surfeit of inspectors to get out. Almost, but not quite. The whole premise of FRA inspection is that there be no defects to find on inspection -- for there to be so many, in so many contexts, says to me that the FRA was aware of the deterioriating situation with UP maintenance and conducted this blitz accordingly. FRA 'Blitz' have been happening from time to time as long as there has been the FRA. The number of 'defects' the FRA find vary. The FRA may be acting on a 'tip' from UP employees. If UP has undertaken some 'process', the results of which end up in FRA failures the results could be staggering in disrupting operations.
Overmod I got the impression that the "problem" was that the FRA conducted an inspection 'blitz', perhaps a new and unannounced inspection priority, where large numbers of people descended simultaneously looking for (and evidently finding) enough defects to severely clog operations within a very short timeframe. I can almost have sympathy for the frustration of the UP people who are now on record as asking the surfeit of inspectors to get out. Almost, but not quite. The whole premise of FRA inspection is that there be no defects to find on inspection -- for there to be so many, in so many contexts, says to me that the FRA was aware of the deterioriating situation with UP maintenance and conducted this blitz accordingly.
Almost, but not quite. The whole premise of FRA inspection is that there be no defects to find on inspection -- for there to be so many, in so many contexts, says to me that the FRA was aware of the deterioriating situation with UP maintenance and conducted this blitz accordingly.
FRA 'Blitz' have been happening from time to time as long as there has been the FRA. The number of 'defects' the FRA find vary. The FRA may be acting on a 'tip' from UP employees.
If UP has undertaken some 'process', the results of which end up in FRA failures the results could be staggering in disrupting operations.
It's also possible to get on the FRA's radar which leads to more field inspections. Usually it's after a number of high profile accidents.
Perhaps UP has put itself on that radar. There's been some high profile accidents this year. Most on other railroads but the majority of the public don't know UP from NS. Throw in the recent furloughs of mechanical department employees, both locomotive and car, the FRA may have decided UP needs some closer scrutiny.
OvermodI got the impression that the "problem" was that the FRA conducted an inspection 'blitz', perhaps a new and unannounced inspection priority, where large numbers of people descended simultaneously looking for (and evidently finding) enough defects to severely clog operations within a very short timeframe. I can almost have sympathy for the frustration of the UP people who are now on record as asking the surfeit of inspectors to get out. Almost, but not quite. The whole premise of FRA inspection is that there be no defects to find on inspection -- for there to be so many, in so many contexts, says to me that the FRA was aware of the deterioriating situation with UP maintenance and conducted this blitz accordingly.
I got the impression that the "problem" was that the FRA conducted an inspection 'blitz', perhaps a new and unannounced inspection priority, where large numbers of people descended simultaneously looking for (and evidently finding) enough defects to severely clog operations within a very short timeframe. I can almost have sympathy for the frustration of the UP people who are now on record as asking the surfeit of inspectors to get out.
CMStPnP charlie hebdo Sadly on here, it's once again "blame the messenger" or inspectors. My impression as someone living near (so hearing) the UP mainline has been one of many UP locomotives needing serious engine work (less so with visiting NW ones) and many freight cars with wheels well out of true. Hearing is believing. Laying off mechanical workers in the shop (deferred or never maintenance) is a recipe for serious problems. All part of a cost-cutting, maximize short-term profits philosophy. I have to say I am becomming more and more a fan of CP management over UP managemant and am even rebalancing my stock portfolio slowly in that direction. I find the new CP marketing proposals highly innovative and aggressive. UP once upon a time used to be that way but it started to fade after they merged with SP. I think CP might end up buying some UP lines sooner or later. Pehaps even force a sale via the Feds with the argument that CP could do better and it would be for the public good.........we'll see.
charlie hebdo Sadly on here, it's once again "blame the messenger" or inspectors. My impression as someone living near (so hearing) the UP mainline has been one of many UP locomotives needing serious engine work (less so with visiting NW ones) and many freight cars with wheels well out of true. Hearing is believing. Laying off mechanical workers in the shop (deferred or never maintenance) is a recipe for serious problems. All part of a cost-cutting, maximize short-term profits philosophy.
I have to say I am becomming more and more a fan of CP management over UP managemant and am even rebalancing my stock portfolio slowly in that direction. I find the new CP marketing proposals highly innovative and aggressive. UP once upon a time used to be that way but it started to fade after they merged with SP. I think CP might end up buying some UP lines sooner or later. Pehaps even force a sale via the Feds with the argument that CP could do better and it would be for the public good.........we'll see.
Quite possibly. And mechanical problems are the issue, not especially FRA or other government inspections.
I like reading our internal recrew report. It has a short, often incomplete, explanation of why a train needed a recrew. (I always read what they wrote when I've been recrewed.) I was reading about one train. It had a multitude of problems, power not ready, train not ready, etc. Then it said, "...and then the FRA showed up."
As I recall I think they had to set out 6 or 7 cars that the FRA bad ordered before they could depart.
As to locomotives, some Federal defects are easy to fix. I do it quite often. I've even seen a picture of the defect I'm thinking about on the cover of the trade magazine "Railway Age" with two senior officers of an eastern railroad in front of the locomotive.
The defect? The walk way safety chains that hook either between units or across the end hand rails. If the droop in the chain is more than 8 inches, it's a defect. The one in the picture was way more than 8 inches.
Transport Canada doesn't do anywhere near as many inspections as the FRA, but when they do show up they will be in a vehicle with the TC logo and name written on both sides. And if they venture out into the yard they will absolutely be wearing full PPE.
As Zug mentioned, the whole point of inspections and audits is that they are unexpected.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
zugmannEvery FRA/utility guy I ever met IDs themselves. And they are regulators, so it prob. wouldn't be a good idea to send a 2 week written invitation to ask to look at something.
The NY version of OSHA - PESH - has two branches of interest to fire departments. The enforcement arm is going to ding you for what's wrong. Usually, it's a warning - fix it and we're good. If it's really egregarious, fines, etc.
The compliance arm is the folks you want to invite. While they can ding you if something is wrong, the usual emphasis is what you need to fix.
Sometimes they come in with an agenda - usually it involves a recent change. Several years ago, the local PESH inspector came to visit us. At the top of his list was a newly promulgated respiratory policy (self contained breathing apparatus). It so happened that I (fire chief at the time) had learned about the change and put together a policy. Mainly, that involved changing the boilerplate to cover our fire department), but we had it in hand. That, and a copy of our SOPs, made him happy, and we didn't hear from him again.
mudchickenIn the past, FRA has "appeared" without properly identifying themselves when setting foot on the property. Before condemning the local adult supervision, a little more investigating and questioning needs to be done. Walking around on railroad property like you own the place without the proper protection and failing to follow procedure can get somebody killed. FRA may have been in the wrong and the UP supervisor(s) may have been doing the right thing.
Every FRA/utility guy I ever met IDs themselves. And they are regulators, so it prob. wouldn't be a good idea to send a 2 week written invitation to ask to look at something.
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