Trains.com

BNSF left hanging as Yellow files bankruptcy

8349 views
36 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 21,669 posts
Posted by Overmod on Thursday, October 5, 2023 11:37 AM

The Hunt blocks I see come eastbound across the Mississippi -- I presume on the Frisco -- and are probably interchanged at Tennessee tower off Broadway (or whatever the location is now called, where Bellevue crosses under) where the ex-Frisco and ex-Southern diverge.

The west lead for UP Sargent Yard diverges north from that route not very far to the west, and the route east from that yard turns north at the ex-IC freight bypass, at Aulon, and most of the trains then go east through ex-L&N Leewood Yard.  Almost all power on those trains has been CSX recently.

 

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 5, 2023 5:41 AM

Thanks,  On this specific NS  ex-Southern line, where are the interchange locations, both for BNSF and for UP?

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 21,669 posts
Posted by Overmod on Sunday, October 1, 2023 1:28 PM

I regularly see very long solid blocks of J.B.Hunt intermodal containers, with BNSF power, running east on the ex-Southern NS line through Collierville.  I do not remember whether I have seen these with UP power, but it has become common to see UP units or whole power consists pulling trains on this line.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, October 1, 2023 8:40 AM

Intereting:  How much or what percent Hunt - BNSF intermodal is interchanged with other Class Is?

Also, I know that there are intermodal BNSF-UP coal and chermical unit trains,  Any intermodal trains?

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, September 30, 2023 11:26 PM

Hunt BOUGHT the BNSF Logistics organization and will be reducing the number of fromer BNSF employees in the organization where their job fuctions are duplicates of existing Hunt job functions. 

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Georgia USA SW of Atlanta
  • 11,919 posts
Posted by blue streak 1 on Saturday, September 30, 2023 10:08 PM

Hunt is nimble in the OTR trucking.  A merge with BNSF would end up with too many RR persons with no idea how to operate  + hunt need the other Class 1s.  FEC, UP, NS, CSX, & CPAK all have certain lanes that are faster or even where BNSF  does not go

  • Member since
    July 2016
  • 2,631 posts
Posted by Backshop on Saturday, September 30, 2023 8:42 PM

daveklepper

You are assuming that largely privately-held (Birkshire) BNSF would wish to putchase Hunt, while BNSF selling their forewarding subsifdiary bto Hunt suggests the opposite.

 

I didn't "assume" anything.  I'm not the one who suggested that BNSF is buying JBH; only that they could do it.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, September 30, 2023 4:25 PM

You are assuming that largely privately-held (Birkshire) BNSF would wish to putchase Hunt, while BNSF selling their forewarding subsifdiary bto Hunt suggests the opposite.

  • Member since
    July 2016
  • 2,631 posts
Posted by Backshop on Wednesday, September 27, 2023 8:07 AM

daveklepper

My main point is that there isn't any  reason for Hunt to sell to anybody.  The present arrangement between Hunt and BNSF befits  both parties, and their is no reason to change it. 

Your point would only apply if it was a privately held company.  If it's publically traded, a good enough offer will make anyone sell.  What Warren wants, Warren gets! Right now, there's a fight going on to buy US Steel, even though they weren't for sale. Cleveland Cliffs seems to have the inside track. 

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, September 27, 2023 2:07 AM

My main point is that there isn't any  reason for Hunt to sell to anybody.  The present arrangement between Hunt and BNSF befits  both parties, and their is no reason to change it.

NS-BNSF AND CSX-UP dual mergers would make a lot more sense, if the STB would permit it.  Or the combination you prefer.

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • From: Valparaiso, In
  • 5,921 posts
Posted by MP173 on Monday, September 25, 2023 4:39 PM

Slightly "on topic" again...rumor I heard was that the Yellow asset sale will go very quickly and priced higher than anticipated.  

Terminals are in play with Estes at over $1.5B and rumor is that Estes wants all 28 ft pups and Amazon will take recent 53 ft trailers.

BNSF (and others) might end up fully paid.

Ed

  • Member since
    July 2016
  • 2,631 posts
Posted by Backshop on Monday, September 25, 2023 3:48 PM

daveklepper

Yes,  Backshop, but who has the controlling interest and runs the company?

 

Institutional ownership--                     40.4%

Institutional mutual fund ownership--- 32.7%

Mutual fund ownership---                     7.8%

Insider ownership---                            2.1%

Other---                                            17.1%

Forbes says that JB's widow owns almost 18%.  So no one really has a controlling interest. She's 91 years old and has no position in the company.

Johnelle Hunt (forbes.com)

  • Member since
    April 2016
  • 1,447 posts
Posted by Shadow the Cats owner on Monday, September 25, 2023 2:28 PM

daveklepper

Yes,  Backshop, but who has the controlling interest and runs the company?

 

 

Right now most of the shares are still controlled by the Hunt family or the employees of JB Hunt.  Most vulture capital companies stay way away from OTR carriers.  Why this industry is way to freaking volatile for their own blood.  

 

You can be a 2k truck fleet one month and 3 months later be bankrupt if you guess wrong on your fuel costs or lose your biggest customers or have a massive loss in a lawsuit aka Knight Transportation about a decade ago.  

 

Knight literally went out due to one accident were a Federal Judge basically said due to your actions related to the aftermath of the accident you're not allowed to have a defense against the plaintiff.  Then their own insurance companies all said YOYO there and the settlement was in the order of a modern day NFL quarterback contract amount.  This was just prior to fuel jumping to over 4 bucks a gallon.  They ended up having to get bought by Swift for basically pennies on the dollar.  

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Monday, September 25, 2023 2:06 PM

Yes,  Backshop, but who has the controlling interest and runs the company?

  • Member since
    April 2016
  • 1,447 posts
Posted by Shadow the Cats owner on Sunday, September 24, 2023 9:24 PM

It would be very hard as you have many choices in the OTR industry for transportation and several other class 1 railroads in the railroad side.  Heck at one point CSX owned a container shipping line UP owned Overnite transportation NS as mentioned had North American.  Hell Amazon has an airline trucking and delivery service for it's own business run by it's own carriers up to the final mile where they tend to hand it off to the postal service.  

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Northern New York
  • 25,020 posts
Posted by tree68 on Sunday, September 24, 2023 4:12 PM

Shadow the Cats owner
...to create a seamless logistical system that can go coast to coast.

Someone would probably try to invoke "antitrust" somehow...

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date
Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

  • Member since
    July 2016
  • 2,631 posts
Posted by Backshop on Sunday, September 24, 2023 7:35 AM

JB Hunt has been a publicly traded company for decades.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, September 23, 2023 1:51 PM

Doesn't the Hunt family enjoy being in the trucking business?

  • Member since
    April 2016
  • 1,447 posts
Posted by Shadow the Cats owner on Friday, September 22, 2023 2:04 PM

It's getting to the point where those who work in the OTR industry are just wondering when BNSF will just pull the trigger on buying JB Hunt totally to create a seamless logistical system that can go coast to coast.  This has happened in the past with NS buying North American van lines but nothing on this scale.  They have 24k power units 27k drivers and last year ran over 1.6 billion miles on the road let alone what their containers did on the BNSF.  

  • Member since
    July 2008
  • 2,325 posts
Posted by rdamon on Friday, September 15, 2023 7:27 AM

https://www.bnsf.com/news-media/news-releases/newsrelease.page?relId=jb-hunt-to-acquire-brokerage-assets-of-bnsf-logistics

LOWELL, Ark. and FORT WORTH, Texas – Today, J.B. Hunt Transport Services Inc. (NASDAQ: JBHT), one of the largest supply chain solutions providers in North America, and Burlington Northern Santa Fe, LLC announced J.B. Hunt’s subsidiary, J.B. Hunt Transport, Inc., has entered into a definitive agreement to purchase the brokerage operations of BNSF Logistics, LLC. 

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: KS
  • 999 posts
Posted by SFbrkmn on Friday, September 8, 2023 12:52 PM

diningcar

This month's TRAINS MAGAZINE has a story which puts the container business in perspective. BNSF has the JB Hunt business, which my old boss Michael Haverty secured while being President of the Santa Fe, and BNSF is handling the container business very well. 

 Depends on the level of train the containers are on. highlightted exzempt Z, should be fine. Lower tier non-priority Z or a Q symbol with throttle restrictions & isolation requirement, then the movement might take while.                                Sam is 

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • 1,754 posts
Posted by diningcar on Wednesday, September 6, 2023 3:39 PM

This month's TRAINS MAGAZINE has a story which puts the container business in perspective. BNSF has the JB Hunt business, which my old boss Michael Haverty secured while being President of the Santa Fe, and BNSF is handling the container business very well. 

  • Member since
    August 2003
  • From: Antioch, IL
  • 4,371 posts
Posted by greyhounds on Sunday, September 3, 2023 2:19 AM

I read that the amount owed to BNSF is 6.3 million dollars.  That isn't going to break BNSF by a long shot.

But you can bet that sommeone in Ft. Worth has been assigned to get the money owned to BNSF.

 

"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, September 2, 2023 8:49 PM

samfp1943

Ulrich
BaltACD

The ones that will get the bulk of any funds will be the bankruptcy lawyers.  Creditors be damned.

Yes, the lawyers always win. 

   

 
You also have to wonder; How bjg a pay cut did the "UNION Big Shots" have to take as they jettisoned some 22,000 Dues paying members???  

Do you make concessions that really won't save 22K jobs because of the very ineptness of the company seeking the concessions or do you negotiate improved contract conditions with 370K jobs.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    June 2003
  • From: South Central,Ks
  • 7,170 posts
Posted by samfp1943 on Friday, September 1, 2023 10:47 PM

[quote user="Ulrich"]

BaltACD

The ones that will get the bulk of any funds will be the bankruptcy lawyers.  Creditors be damned.

Yes, the lawyers always win. 

 /quote]
 
 
You also have to wonder; How bjg a pay cut did the "UNION Big Shots" have to take as they jettisoned some 22,000 Dues paying members???  

 

 


 

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 267 posts
Posted by CatFoodFlambe on Friday, September 1, 2023 6:29 PM

Tell me about it! Super Angry

I was an operations manager for two LTL trucking companies in the 1980's and 1990's (St. Johnsbury and NW Transport (renamed as Nationsway Transport.   I stayed with "Saint J" to the bitter end (and during the closeout operation as well),  and bailed on NWTP for a completely new career about six months before they shut down. 


rrnut282

It doesn't look very wise when you're one of the 22k thrown in the trash after paying the same union dues as the other guys. 

 

 
CatFoodFlambe

 They were a high-cost operation trying to complete as a low-cost carrier - and utterly doomed to a very short future no matter what the Teamsters gave back.   Instead, the Teamster wisely used Yellow (about 22K Teamsters)to win their negotiations with UPS (340K Teamsters - the largest single union contract in the US).   

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, August 31, 2023 12:54 PM

rrnut282
It doesn't look very wise when you're one of the 22k thrown in the trash after paying the same union dues as the other guys.  
CatFoodFlambe

 They were a high-cost operation trying to complete as a low-cost carrier - and utterly doomed to a very short future no matter what the Teamsters gave back.   Instead, the Teamster wisely used Yellow (about 22K Teamsters)to win their negotiations with UPS (340K Teamsters - the largest single union contract in the US).   

If you concede to a carrier that you view as one that will STILL FAIL despite your concessions.  You don't make the concessions.  Yellow never gave indications that it could be a profitable ongoing concern, no matter how much help it was given.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: MP CF161.6 NS's New Castle District in NE Indiana
  • 2,148 posts
Posted by rrnut282 on Thursday, August 31, 2023 11:57 AM

It doesn't look very wise when you're one of the 22k thrown in the trash after paying the same union dues as the other guys. 

 

CatFoodFlambe

 They were a high-cost operation trying to complete as a low-cost carrier - and utterly doomed to a very short future no matter what the Teamsters gave back.   Instead, the Teamster wisely used Yellow (about 22K Teamsters)to win their negotiations with UPS (340K Teamsters - the largest single union contract in the US).   

 

Mike (2-8-2)
  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 267 posts
Posted by CatFoodFlambe on Wednesday, August 9, 2023 8:11 PM

MP173

Yellow's stock has taken a "dead cat bounce"...up 300% last week.  Why?

Possible covering of short sales or possibly the asset sales will cover liabilities.  They own 160 terminal properties and also a considerable number of late model tractors (typically day cabs) and trailers which was funded by the $700m loan from Feds in 2020 which was partially converted to equity.

My employer is owed considerable (for us) by Yellow.  

Very interesting article in Saturday's WSJ - an interview with Sean O'Brian the Teamsters head.  His attitude was some will suffer but Yellow had to go.  Some numbered 22,000.  He was very happy about the UPS settlement.  It has been theorized that Teamsters invested in negotiating with UPS much more than Yellow, possibly true as they saw that yellow was a dying horse.

Ed

 

 

More than just theory - Yellow was a dead man trucking.    Their operating ratio was floating close to 100% - and they had long since disposed of any assets that were not essential to day-to-day operations unless they could implement the "one Yellow" model.   When you don't generate any profit in your operations, there's nothing left to service the MASSIVE debt they took on to pay for the USF (Holland, Reddaway, and New Penn) acquision.    

They were a high-cost operation trying to complete as a low-cost carrier - and utterly doomed to a very short future no matter what the Teamsters gave back.   Instead, the Teamster wisely used Yellow (about 22K Teamsters)to win their negotiations with UPS (340K Teamsters - the largest single union contract in the US).   

 

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy