How common is it for a train to get switched onto the wrong track due to either the dispatcher(?) making a mistake when making the switch or from the knowing the way it was supposed to go but having the switch in the wrong position?
If the train does get switched onto the wrong track and can stop before it goes too far, isn't it a big problem for the train to reverse on the tracks (not mechanically but from rules/laws)?
Perry BabinHow common is it for a train to get switched onto the wrong track due to either the dispatcher(?) making a mistake when making the switch or from the knowing the way it was supposed to go but having the switch in the wrong position? If the train does get switched onto the wrong track and can stop before it goes too far, isn't it a big problem for the train to reverse on the tracks (not mechanically but from rules/laws)?
Very infrequent. Dispatchers nowadays utilized some form of CADS (Computer Aided Dispatching Systems). Switches and Signals get lined by the Dispatcher manipulating CADS, which has a model board of the territory the Dispatchers controls both CTC (Centralized Traffic Control) and Dark (non-signaled) territory. There were two forms of control of Dark territories - 1. Direct Traffic Contro (DTC) wherein the Dark territory was segmented into defined blocks of territory with trains and/or MofW authorities being issued by the Dispatcher. 2. Track Warrent Control (TWC) wherein the Dispatcher can give trains and/or MofW authorities between specified points on the territory - either stations or specified milepost locations.
CADS keeps track of all the Dispatcher issued authorities and all the switches and signals that Dispatchers line as well as data for each train that is moving under the control of CADS. Pertinent data can be retrieved upon demand when necessary for an accident or rules violation.
The CADS displayed Train Identity is linked to the computerized Train Sheet that is created for each train operating - the Train Sheet contains the Train ID, Locomotives, Crew Names and ID numbers, Loading, Length, existence of High/Wides on the train, identification of the train as a Key Train when it has the minimum required amount of HAZMAT.
Dispatchers know the Orign and intended Destination of all trains operating on their territory. In most cases they also have display screens for other Dispatchers territory that adjoin the working Dispatcher territory to see what traffic is coming to the working Dispatcher. Dispatchers of adjoining territories communicate with each other for the movement of trains over their territory boundries.
In my personal experience the only time I have 'seen' mis-routing of trains has happened with Amtrak and VRE trains departing Washington DC and the CSX BD Dispather and the Amtrak operator at K Tower. There have been occasions when K Tower operated a Amtrak Silver Service train on the departure time of a VRE Manassas line commuter train. CSX Signals approacing Control Point AF display the same signal indication of a divirging route when trains are being crossed over beween CSX #2 and CSX #3 tracks as well as when trains are routed to the NS Main toward Manassas. Amtrak headed toward Fredericksburg doesn't realize they are headed to NS tracks until they are on them. Then there is the whole affair of stopping the train and setting in place the proper protections and procedures for Amtrak to back up and move on the correct route.
The biggest consistent problem is train's having incorrect Train Sheet data, wrong tonnage, wrong length. A Dispatcher NEVER wants to utter the phrase "What do you mean you don't fit?"
Switching mistakes are yard 'boo boos'. Switching a car that was intended for #15 track into #8 track and that error not being discovered until the outbound train is departing and it is discovered it has an additional car or it is missing a car.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
A lot depends on where the switches are. In most yard or industrial siding situations which are not under dispatcher control, the train crew needs to make sure switches are properly alingned before proceeding over them, and are usually operating the train at restricted speed precisely so they can stop short of misaligned switches (among other things).
For main track switches in dark territory, there is an expectation that crews leave switches in their prescribed normal position (defined in timetables) before they return track to the dispatcher, or get the dispatchers permission if they do need to leave them reversed for some reason. If a misaligned switch is encountered on a main track and the crew was not informed, someone is probably going to get some time off, maybe permanently.
Balt and some of the others who operate in signalled/ CTC territory can add their comments for those territories..
I seem to recall an Amtrak train in the Philadelphia area several years ago wandering several miles up the wrong track before being stopped.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
I don't know about switching a whole train wrong, but my experience with switching a car wrong is about a 2-3% chance, if the car is changing railroads. In 88 years, I've had three cars coming from the west coast that didn't turn left at Omaha. They did some exploring in Iowa first.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
PJS1Sitting in front of a screen for eight hours could get tiring. How do the railroads deal with dispatcher fatigue and maybe boredom?
Most Dispatchers know the ebb and flow of their territory. The normal operations create slack times and crunch times. Take advantage of the slack times to 'hit the head', grab a cup of coffee, go outside the building for a smoke etc.
CADS has features that permit signals to be lined well in advance of trains, trains can be lined to meeting points and also for the trains to leave the meeting points. There is also a feature in CADS that permits a signal to be lined a specified number of times (yard crew needs 'head room' X number of times in their switching).
The CARDINAL rule of Train Dispatching - Don't line a signal for a train UNLESS in your 'minds plan' you know where that train is going to fit with the rest of the trains on your railroad. Is your 'plan' to interleave trains across your territory; Is you plan to 'fleet' trains in one direction and after they clear X 'fleet' the trains in the opposite direction to Z.
As a Train Dispatcher, if your 'minds eye' of your railroad isn't four hours ahead of where the trains are NOW, you are behind. I formulating the 'minds eye' plan, you also throw in any number of 'what ifs' for each train and its potential to activate a Defect Detector, have a Undesired Emergency brake application, stall on the ruling grade, have a grade crossing incident, etc. etc. etc. The Train Dispatcher has to know how he is going to adjust his plan when the 'unexpected' happens. The Train Dispatcher is always THINKING about his railroad, ALWAYS.
Daylight and Second Trick Train Dispatchers know the inspection routines for the Roadmaster, Track Inspector and the various Signal Maintainers on the territory and can plan these REQUIRED inspections into the operation of the rest of the territory. This can be telling the individual to inspect the track from North to South insted of in the other direction because of the location of trains. (MofW Authorities can be issued to FOLLOW train; they cannot be issued ahead of trains.
Third Trick Dispatcher only deal with Roadway and Signal personnel in emergencies under normal conditions.
The Dispatcher's Avtec Communication computer screen allowed for two telephone lines. As many radio transmitters at it takes for coverage on the Dispatchers Territory. The Radio will have access to the Road Channel, the Dispatcher's Channel and the MofW Channel. Some field locations have Yard Channels, on CSX Train Dispatchers are not given access to the Yard Channels. Personnel on track, T&E, MofW and anyone else with a radio are SUPPOSED to monitor the Road Channel at all times that they are not actively transacting business on one of the other channels. When trains want to access the Train Dispatcher, they access a tone in function of their radio consoles. That tone will activate the appropriate wayside transmitter, which will 'ring' on the Dispatcher's Avtec screen. If the conversation will be 'involved' or require the transmission of a 'mandatory directive' the Dispatcher will instruct the caller to go to the Dispatchers Channel so the conversation can be conducted without getting walked on by other users of the Road Channel.
matthewsaggieI seem to recall an Amtrak train in the Philadelphia area several years ago wandering several miles up the wrong track before being stopped.
If I remember correctly the crew was held out of service until the whiz quiz and tests for various other substances were all fully analyzed...
When I was working the PaTrain in Pittsburgh about once a month the dispatcher would line us up the P&W sub instead of toward the Pittsburgh station. Since we could see the signal far enough in advance we stopped, called Glenwood Junction tower on the telephone, and waited for the dispatcher run his timer down and reline the switches and signal. Since this all took 10 to 15 minutes, after the first few times we told the dispatcher we would just continue onto the P&W, have him line the signal to backup through Laughlin Junction and then line us up correctly to Pittsburgh.
Murphy Siding I don't know abounded switching a whole train wrong, but my experience with sw a car wrong is about a 2-3% chance, if the car is changing railroads. In 88 years, I've had three cars coming from the west coast that didn't turn left at Omaha. They did some explori in Iowa first.
I don't know abounded switching a whole train wrong, but my experience with sw a car wrong is about a 2-3% chance, if the car is changing railroads. In 88 years, I've had three cars coming from the west coast that didn't turn left at Omaha. They did some explori in Iowa first.
Gee Murphy, you're a bit older than I thought. But only 3 misroutes in 88 years is a pretty good record.
Some time back, I saw a car of lumber in my train going to Murphy's neck of the woods. I thought it was going to him, but it was going to a competitor in his general area. The thing that stood out was the routing. It wasn't a mistake. I didn't look to see where it was coming from, someplace on the UP west/northwest of North Platte. It was to be interchanged to the BNSF for final delivery in the Sioux Falls area. The interchange point was via the Belt Railway of Chicago's Clearing Yard.
Now UP interchanges with BNSF a lot closer to Sioux Falls. Grand Island, Sioux City, or probably more likely-Council Bluffs. Instead, the routing called for interchange that added about an extra thousand miles to the trip. It made sense to someone to route it that way, but I didn't see it.
Jeff
CN does not have any connections with UP out west, so carloads may take interesting routings to avoid involving additional railroads. Edmonton to Denver via Duluth/Superior is one example.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
jeffhergert Murphy Siding I don't know abounded switching a whole train wrong, but my experience with sw a car wrong is about a 2-3% chance, if the car is changing railroads. In 88 years, I've had three cars coming from the west coast that didn't turn left at Omaha. They did some explori in Iowa first. Gee Murphy, you're a bit older than I thought. But only 3 misroutes in 88 years is a pretty good record. Some time back, I saw a car of lumber in my train going to Murphy's neck of the woods. I thought it was going to him, but it was going to a competitor in his general area. The thing that stood out was the routing. It wasn't a mistake. I didn't look to see where it was coming from, someplace on the UP west/northwest of North Platte. It was to be interchanged to the BNSF for final delivery in the Sioux Falls area. The interchange point was via the Belt Railway of Chicago's Clearing Yard. Now UP interchanges with BNSF a lot closer to Sioux Falls. Grand Island, Sioux City, or probably more likely-Council Bluffs. Instead, the routing called for interchange that added about an extra thousand miles to the trip. It made sense to someone to route it that way, but I didn't see it. Jeff
I don't know how the lumber business is doing it today. Back when there were 100 more Class 1 carriers. Most lumber was shipped from the loading mill to the name of the shipper at a gateway point - Chicago, St.Louis, Memphis, New Orleans. The shippers 'marketing' people, while the car is still in transit is working to find an ultimate buyer for the carload - once the buyer is secured, Reconsignment and Diversion orders will be issued changing the Consignee and the final Destination of the car with routing changes as necessary to go from the location where the orders are executed.
In many cases the Shipper would use circuitous routing among the available carriers to give the shipment more time to be sold to the ultimate buyer. This set up allowed the shipper to do loading continuously with whatever car supply was available. If the shipper had to wait until he had a 'actual buyer' it would delay his ability to load and ship cars.
A similar system was used for West Coast fruits and vegetables headed to East Coast buyers.
BaltACDReconsignment and Diversion orders will be issued changing the Consignee and the final Destination of the car with routing changes as necessary to go from the location where the orders are executed.
My grandfather's job was handling the astronomical amount of orders that came along with re-routing the grain that was flying all over the CB&Q/BN.
Kinda gave me the impression that raw material-type shipments have a tendancy to head out looking for a buyer and finished goods had a buyer before they left.
NittanyLion BaltACD Reconsignment and Diversion orders will be issued changing the Consignee and the final Destination of the car with routing changes as necessary to go from the location where the orders are executed. My grandfather's job was handling the astronomical amount of orders that came along with re-routing the grain that was flying all over the CB&Q/BN. Kinda gave me the impression that raw material-type shipments have a tendancy to head out looking for a buyer and finished goods had a buyer before they left.
BaltACD Reconsignment and Diversion orders will be issued changing the Consignee and the final Destination of the car with routing changes as necessary to go from the location where the orders are executed.
Fruits & Vegetables are perishable commodities. The clock towards being unsuitable for sale begins the instant they are picked from the plants that bore them. As such these commodities must start their trips to market without delay on the Origin end of the transaction.
Back in the day, refrigerator cars were cooled by melting ice and the cars had to be routed through locations where ice could be added to the cars as necessary. The delays for reicing became perfect locations for the products to be reconsigned and diverted.
In today's world of fruits and vegetables our supermarkets source them from all over the world. I love Cherries. In late May & June the cherries from my local store indicated that they were a product of Mexico, in late June and into July they were a product of California and at the present time they are a product of Washington state. I also buy grapes which at points in time have shown them to be from Brazil, Peru and Mexico. I have no idea as to the number of factor's, wholesalers and other middlemen that are involved between the fields and my shopping cart.
What happens if raw materials say grain does not find a buyer. Does it return to the seller? I would think that any shipment would have a buyer before it leaves its origination point.
caldreamerWhat happens if raw materials say grain does not find a buyer. Does it return to the seller? I would think that any shipment would have a buyer before it leaves its origination point.
Part of the impetus of selling 'on the fly' is for the seller to get the best possible price. If the product makes a 'shippers destination' without being sold, it will get sold at something approaching the worset possible price. As long as the product is still saleable, somebody will buy it. Supply and demand at work.
It did occur to me that the car could've been one of those that are shipped without an actual consignee, to be rerouted once sold. I wouldn't think in these modern times that it would happen like that anymore. Muprhy might have some idea if it's still happening or not.
That's the thing about "effeciency." It can mean different things to different people at different times. What may seem ineffecient to me, taking a car 1000 miles out of it's way, may work out for the shipper or consignee. Or one or both carriers.
jeffhergertIt did occur to me that the car could've been one of those that are shipped without an actual consignee, to be rerouted once sold. I wouldn't think in these modern times that it would happen like that anymore. Muprhy might have some idea if it's still happening or not. That's the thing about "effeciency." It can mean different things to different people at different times. What may seem ineffecient to me, taking a car 1000 miles out of it's way, may work out for the shipper or consignee. Or one or both carriers. Jeff
I feel the 'pain of ''efficiency'". It didn't make sense to me for the yards in Baltimore to send their cars destined South of the Potomac River West 178 miles to Cumberland so they could be sent over the Cumberland hump and switched into trains originating at Cumberland and destined to Richmond and points further South. Especially when there were several trains out of Philadelphia through Baltimore destined Richmond and points further South.
How long can a train run around untill it finds a customer? Grain and some other commodities will go bad after a period of time.
Ira
caldreamerHow long can a train run around untill it finds a customer? Grain and some other commodities will go bad after a period of time. Ira
It will be SOLD. At some price point. Shipper wants the price point to be high. The buyer of last resort wants the price point to be low. Spoiled product benefits no one.
Grains that are traded are not perishable unless they are handled improperly - ie. allowed to get and/or stay wet and thus begin the process toward rot. Farmers routinely store grain on their own properties until the get a advantageous price point from their local elevator or need to sell is to pay bills. The elevator can hold the grain for extended periods before loading it, normally at the direction of the buyer of the grain. Grain as the railroads handle it is not normally one of the commodities that are subject to reconsignment and diversion.
BaltACDIt will be SOLD. At some price point. Shipper wants the price point to be high. The buyer of last resort wants the price point to be low. Spoiled product benefits no one.
If the price is low enough, that grain car will be sitting at a lumber yard with 4 guys shoveling it into a dump truck by hand.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmann BaltACD It will be SOLD. At some price point. Shipper wants the price point to be high. The buyer of last resort wants the price point to be low. Spoiled product benefits no one. If the price is low enough, that grain car will be sitting at a lumber yard with 4 guys shoveling it into a dump truck by hand.
BaltACD It will be SOLD. At some price point. Shipper wants the price point to be high. The buyer of last resort wants the price point to be low. Spoiled product benefits no one.
At one time many lumber yards handled coal for home heating. Maybe they stock grain for customers who've bought grain burning stoves from them.
http://www.greenatlantic.com/stove/
jeffhergert zugmann BaltACD It will be SOLD. At some price point. Shipper wants the price point to be high. The buyer of last resort wants the price point to be low. Spoiled product benefits no one. If the price is low enough, that grain car will be sitting at a lumber yard with 4 guys shoveling it into a dump truck by hand. At one time many lumber yards handled coal for home heating. Maybe they stock grain for customers who've bought grain burning stoves from them. http://www.greenatlantic.com/stove/ Jeff
And maybe it will to to Tractor Supply as bulk bird feed!
jeffhergert Some time back, I saw a car of lumber in my train going to Murphy's neck of the woods. I thought it was going to him, but it was going to a competitor in his general area. The thing that stood out was the routing. It wasn't a mistake. I didn't look to see where it was coming from, someplace on the UP west/northwest of North Platte. It was to be interchanged to the BNSF for final delivery in the Sioux Falls area. The interchange point was via the Belt Railway of Chicago's Clearing Yard. Now UP interchanges with BNSF a lot closer to Sioux Falls. Grand Island, Sioux City, or probably more likely-Council Bluffs. Instead, the routing called for interchange that added about an extra thousand miles to the trip. It made sense to someone to route it that way, but I didn't see it. Jeff
BaltACD jeffhergert Murphy Siding I don't know abounded switching a whole train wrong, but my experience with sw a car wrong is about a 2-3% chance, if the car is changing railroads. In 88 years, I've had three cars coming from the west coast that didn't turn left at Omaha. They did some explori in Iowa first. Gee Murphy, you're a bit older than I thought. But only 3 misroutes in 88 years is a pretty good record. Some time back, I saw a car of lumber in my train going to Murphy's neck of the woods. I thought it was going to him, but it was going to a competitor in his general area. The thing that stood out was the routing. It wasn't a mistake. I didn't look to see where it was coming from, someplace on the UP west/northwest of North Platte. It was to be interchanged to the BNSF for final delivery in the Sioux Falls area. The interchange point was via the Belt Railway of Chicago's Clearing Yard. Now UP interchanges with BNSF a lot closer to Sioux Falls. Grand Island, Sioux City, or probably more likely-Council Bluffs. Instead, the routing called for interchange that added about an extra thousand miles to the trip. It made sense to someone to route it that way, but I didn't see it. Jeff I don't know how the lumber business is doing it today. Back when there were 100 more Class 1 carriers. Most lumber was shipped from the loading mill to the name of the shipper at a gateway point - Chicago, St.Louis, Memphis, New Orleans. The shippers 'marketing' people, while the car is still in transit is working to find an ultimate buyer for the carload - once the buyer is secured, Reconsignment and Diversion orders will be issued changing the Consignee and the final Destination of the car with routing changes as necessary to go from the location where the orders are executed. In many cases the Shipper would use circuitous routing among the available carriers to give the shipment more time to be sold to the ultimate buyer. This set up allowed the shipper to do loading continuously with whatever car supply was available. If the shipper had to wait until he had a 'actual buyer' it would delay his ability to load and ship cars. A similar system was used for West Coast fruits and vegetables headed to East Coast buyers.
Murphy SidingI don't think lumber sellers have played that game in decades. There is a variation of it played. For example, a wholesale lumber supplier will order a car shipped to one of the distribution centers. Then they try to sell it before it gets there. If it doesn't sell, it goes into stock.
Have never known the inside of the lumber business other than my carrier delivered various forms of lumber to a number of lumber yards. I go to Home Depot to buy 2x4's and plywood
That being said, the little I know about wood has been thanks to the videos of Dave Engel of Engel's Coach Shop in Montana.
Would products like cement block or slabs have a consignee or would they be enroute prior to finding a buyer?
caldreamerWould products like cement block or slabs have a consignee or would they be enroute prior to finding a buyer?
They are sold direct to contractors or big box distribution centers. Contractors have contracted buildings to build. Big box distribution centers have consumers that expect the big box stores to have product on hand when the idea strikes the consumer. Producers can warehouse the products pending demand for them.
The nature of the perishable business is the fact tha 'production' was started at the start of the growing season - the harvest season only exists for a relatively short period of time - if the product is not harvested and moved to market, the product is lost.
Non-perisable businesses have the ability to control production much closer in time to need to ship the product as well as having the ability to warehouse the product pending favorable market conditions.
There are myriad business models that exist in the World's economy.
My late aunt worked for a lumber wholesaler. While I don't have any stories to share from her, her opinion of rail service was not always stellar...
I do have some rail memorabilia she received from the railroads - including a 1957 Official Guide, which demands special handling these days lest it crumble in your hands...
It's a couple of inches thick.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
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