Walk Through Fire TRAINS April 2023 Issue

[tree68]

My late father was a reserve police officer in a small village in Michigan.  The reserves had their own officer structure, separate from the full-time officers, including a chief.

Problems eventually emerged when people would look for the person in charge and would go to the reserve sergeant instead of the full-time officer (who really was in charge), forcing the reserves to change their uniform patch, among other things.  

I've seen top level LEO's with everything from one to however many stars they can fit on their lapel.  I don't know that there is any standard like the military.  I, too, served in the military.  The officer ranks are the same (Navy's names differ), but sometimes the enlisted ranks can be a challenge...

A key to incident command is to declare it and to establish a command post where the IC remains.  A problem with multi-jurisdictional responses such as a school incident is that oftimes there is no common radio channel involved, so you end up with a lot of free-lancing for lack of guidance.  It's a known problem, and there has been a lot of effort to remedy that situation.

ICS is a nationwide thing, but there are still wide variances in application.

[Cotton Belt MP104]

[quote user="tree68"]With this incident,  word was around the school before the staff could get a handle on it.

Throughout this thread, there has been mention of "incident commander". Then Larry mentions a school situation.

I am retired military (NCO). Recal the incident that happened at the Uvaldae Texas school. No one took charge. Look at what happened. Tons of uniformed police, low rank, then the school head cop shows up wearing 4 stars. Anyone who  knows anything about insigna and rank would consider him to be the man in charge, right? Probably his next lower rank on "the force" would be a captain. Even the Texas State trooper in charge of the investigation afterwards was LESS THAN a ONE Star.  While rank has its privilage, it is SUPPOSED to show authority. These chief of police and sheriff types should wear a suit and tie, maybe a cowboy hat too. If challenged on authority, just showem' da badge. It will be interesting to see the NTSB report on conduct during the aftermath of wreck. endmrw0321232320

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tree68]

gmpullman

I still have nightmares about Andy Nelson:

Seems like I read or heard somewhere that it happened to him again...

[BaltACD]

gmpullman

Near Houston.

I still have nightmares about Andy Nelson:

Amazing footage in its time. October 19, 1971.

RAILROAD ACCIDENT REPORT: DERAILMENT OF MISSOURI PACIFIC RAILROAD COMPANY'S TRAIN 94 AT HOUSTON, TEXAS, OCTOBER 19, 1971 

The Missouri Pacific Railroad's freight train 94 was traveling north on track which belongs to the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railway when 20 of its cars derailed in Houston, Texas, on October 19, 1971, at 1:44 p.m. There were four diesel-electric locomotive units and 82 cars in the train. Derailed cars included six tank cars containing vinyl chloride monomer and two cars containing other hazardous materials. Two tank cars were punctured in the derailment. The vinyl chloride monomer escaped and ignited. The Houston Fire Department attempted to control the fire. Approximately 45 minutes after the initial derailment, one tank car ruptured violently and another tank car 'rocketed' approximately 300 feet from its initial resting place. This sequence of events caused the death of a fireman. Fifty people were injured and there was considerable property damage. Most of the injured were firemen. The Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was an unexplained emergency brake application which induced lateral forces exceeding the holding capacity of the track fasteners. 

Regards, Ed

Did I hear vinyl chloride and explosion?

[tree68]

Ulrich

..the young cops innocently climbing over the wreckage..

Around here, we used to refer to the troopers as "gray canaries."  They've gotten smarter about hazmat since...

[gmpullman]

Near Houston.

I still have nightmares about Andy Nelson:

Amazing footage in its time. October 19, 1971.

RAILROAD ACCIDENT REPORT: DERAILMENT OF MISSOURI PACIFIC RAILROAD COMPANY'S TRAIN 94 AT HOUSTON, TEXAS, OCTOBER 19, 1971

 

The Missouri Pacific Railroad's freight train 94 was traveling north on track which belongs to the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railway when 20 of its cars derailed in Houston, Texas, on October 19, 1971, at 1:44 p.m. There were four diesel-electric locomotive units and 82 cars in the train. Derailed cars included six tank cars containing vinyl chloride monomer and two cars containing other hazardous materials. Two tank cars were punctured in the derailment. The vinyl chloride monomer escaped and ignited. The Houston Fire Department attempted to control the fire. Approximately 45 minutes after the initial derailment, one tank car ruptured violently and another tank car 'rocketed' approximately 300 feet from its initial resting place. This sequence of events caused the death of a fireman. Fifty people were injured and there was considerable property damage. Most of the injured were firemen. The Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was an unexplained emergency brake application which induced lateral forces exceeding the holding capacity of the track fasteners.

 

Regards, Ed

[MP173]

Read the excellent article last night and am going to read the book.

Quite a chilling photo of the man's shoes next to the Police Chief's car.  The article said something to the effect that looking at his watch was the "last thing he did."  I also wondered about the daughter.  

Amazing how far the tank car travelled...in pieces.

I think the citizens of East Palestine, while have enormous losses and inconveniences, can at least be thankful and grateful that there were no deaths, nor serious immediate injuries.

Not making light of the East Palestine derailment...just glad they didnt have to handle human loss.

Ed

[Ulrich]

Great article of an event that harkens back to a simpler time..the young cops innocently climbing over the wreckage.. one of the cops taking the conductor to his house so that the conductor can call in to his dispatch..yup, simpler times for sure.

There have been a few such close calls over the years... perhaps the most memorable was Mississauga in November 1979 which came about as close as one can get to catastrophic. 

 

[MichaelJohnson]

Thanks for the info, I am looking for it for my friend.

[tree68]

A question unanswered in the article - what happened to the little girl?  She's not listed in the deaths from the incident that I could find, nor is her father.  One image in the article mentions her fathers "tattered clothing" next to the police chief's car.  The police chief was among those killed.

Edit:  Found a picture of the memorial at the site.  Her name isn't on it, nor is her father's.

[cx500]

My copy of the April issue has not yet arrived, but from the discussion here it would seem that the article ignored the Mississauga Ontario derailment of 1979.  While it happened a little to the north up here in Canada, it also would have played as significant a role as the ones mentioned in the discussion above.

Mississauga Miracle: Remembering the disaster that forced 240,000 people to flee | CBC News

There are lots of online articles on this event; I just linked to one of them.  Incidentally, I don't think the CBC article is fully corrrect about the chlorine  tankcar.  The fires prevented anyone getting close to the car for days, by which time there was less than 30 tons remaining.  The fire, and perhaps the BLEVEs, must have created enough updraft to lift the remainder high into the atmosphere.

I agree there should be a single incident commander.  Problems can arise when aforesaid commander does not have broad enough expertise in wide range of factors, and refuses to listen to other experts.  And I will freely admit that today's railroad management is often no longer able to contribute expert knowledge.

[tree68]

Fred M Cain

I do realize that no one perished in the Palestine wreck but with all the reaction over it, it's hard to believe that East Palestine would have less of an effect on the future of railroading that Waverly, TN had.

I would suggest that there is a vast difference between the media at the time of the Waverly incident and today.  East Palestine was on everyone's phone within hours (minutes) of it occurring.  

East Palestine was just a relatively minor wreck in a small town, when compared to Waverly, Lac Megantic, et al.  It was spectacular, yes.  But it was just one of 1,000 annual derailments.

I don't think you're going to see a sea change in railroading.  Some closer inspections, more detectors, yes. But nothing earth shattering. 

An example of the difference from then to now.  A father/daughter suicide/murder occurred involving a student at my grandson's school a month or so ago.  In 1978, students would have heard about it when they got home, perhaps.  With this incident,  word was around the school before the staff could get a handle on it.

[Fred M Cain]

You know, my thought on this article was that it was ironic that it was entitled "The Wreck that Changed America".  An irony indeed because this issue obviously went to press before TRAINS was able to report on the East Palestine disaster.

I do realize that no one perished in the Palestine wreck but with all the reaction over it, it's hard to believe that East Palestine woud have less of an effect on the future of railroading that Waverly, TN had.

[zugmann]

tree68

Unified Command.  Get all the stakeholders together in one place.  Everyone has input, but one person is in charge.  Even amateur radio has embraced the incident command system.

Good luck. Even small incidents have battles between the company officers and the local officials. 

Then you have the poor local cop walking around trying to find the license plate # for the train. 

[tree68]

Overmod

Evidently the message about incident commander at train wrecks got through to the first responders in East Palestine, who apparently threatened a NS wreckmaster with arrest if he attempted to give orders.

Unified Command.  Get all the stakeholders together in one place.  Everyone has input, but one person is in charge.  Even amateur radio has embraced the incident command system.

[tree68]

Oneonta BLEVEs were 1974.  Several were injured, but no deaths occurred.

This is very likely where the idea of water on the cars began - that's what I learned, although it was at the point of flame impingement, not a general wash.

[Overmod]

More technical detail in NTSB-RAR-79-1, dated Feb. 8, 1979.

A notable point here was that playing water on the cars contributed significantly to the explosion.  That ought not to have been an issue at East Palestine.

Evidently the message about incident commander at train wrecks got through to the first responders in East Palestine, who apparently threatened a NS wreckmaster with arrest if he attempted to give orders.  Look for this to figure prominently in where the blame is apportioned, although (alas!) the NS pockets remain deep as ever.

[samfp1943]

Waverly, Tennessee; Feburary 24, 1978...L&N Train derails in downtown due to a broken wheel.  Twenty-three cars derailed; two were loaded with Liquified Propane (LP).  The two takers were to become the problem, and introduce into the Lexicon the term "BLEVE"...The article in TRAINS is written by DR. Yasmine S. Ali,MD. She was working in thee local hosital's emergency room at the time.  

At that time in 1978, I was trucking throughout that area. and Waverly was a town on some of my routings. So I was familiar with it, and was also able to witness some of the carnage in the aftermath of the Feb.24th Wreck.  It has been some fifty-five years, and it still sticks in my mind; like scenes from RVN. 

The discussion here on this TRAINS Forum has also, from tme to time, mentioned that L&N wreck;along with with some mentions of similarities in other accidents. Incidents, in other areas, around the country. Recently, the wreck in East Palestine, OH. Has caused comments, referencing, comentary, as to how it should have been handled as a majhor accident scene.     

    Here is a linked article from FIREHOUSE Magazine that will give a more detailed explanation, and view of the cargos involved at the Waverly, Tn. wreck: 

See linked @ https://www.firehouse.com/rescue/article/10544921/the-waverly-propane-explosion-25th-anniversary-what-has-changed

It goes into some of the problems encountered with the more recent E. Pallstine, Oh. wreck,and what could or could not, have been done at that scene.