For anyone interested in the Sioux City areas freight and infrastructure. Here's a study comissioned back in 2018.
https://www.sioux-city.org/home/showpublisheddocument/20544/636795353837530000
It's a fairly big study, but it lays out; rail, road, and marine improvements for the area. Also tonnages moved by mode, domestic, and international.
Also here's some maps of Iowa truck traffic https://iowadot.gov/maps/msp/pdf/TruckTrafficMap.pdf
https://iowadot.maps.arcgis.com/apps/MapSeries/index.html?appid=0cce99afb78e4d3b9b24f8263717f910
SD60MAC9500You wouldn't need to get all the traffic converted to intermodal. Sioux City alone handles approximately 4500 truckloads inbound/outbound daily. Roughly 15% of those loads could be converted to intermodal. 675 loads O/D. Plenty of terminal work; Lifting, flips(which is mounting a container on a chassis), roadability (repairing and inspecting chassis), and other maintenance items. To keep contractors busy for 12 hrs. The distance between Council Bluffs and Omaha is 94 miles via I-29. So I wouldn't say they are not that far apart. The average distance for a dray between the points is about the same. This isn't a problem for IM over 1000 miles. As linehaul cost can absorb that dray penalty. However it's a problem for short haul IM. Dray cost can make or break an IM lane. The C1's can only pick low hanging fruit for so long... In order for shorthaul IM to work. Dray distances have to be reduced significantly. Yes CN could use a SCIM ramp.. More so for matchback export agri-loads.
You certainly do know what you are talking about.
jeffhergert SD60MAC9500 Backshop You also have to make sure that there's enough traffic to ensure a shift for the employees running it. If there's only 2-3 hours worth of lift, it's not efficient to run it. Well there's plenty of traffic generated in the Sioux City area to keep contractors busy at an IM ramp for a good 12 hour period. There's an assortment of meat packers, food processors, and cold storage. Also Cargill has a large facility for soybean processing, and Storm Lake, IA is only about a 70 mile dray to hypothetical IM ramp. Tyson Foods has 2 processing plants there.. Also railroads don't operate any drayage. That's handled by O/O's or drayage companies. There's no investemnt from the RR at that end. As well at many of the nations IM ramps. Contrators provide the lift equipment and operators.. I like Greyhounds idea of a "Union IM Ramp" It could be operated by a WATCO or Savage.. That's assuming you can get all that traffic to use intermodal. The Council Bluffs (IAIS/UP) and Omaha (BNSF) intermodal facilities aren't that far away from Sioux City. Both of those locations are on their main routes. IM traffic from Sioux City is going to move in manifest trains to a point where they can be put on a train towards their final destinations. I don't know about BNSF, but UP doesn't move IM east out of Council Bluffs. Nor does it move loads from the Chicago area into CB. There is an IM train that sets out containers for CB, that a manifest then picks up for the yard. But anytime I've looked, the containers are empty, going to CB to be loaded for western destinations in the area. Maybe even in Sioux City. CN, of any of them, would probably benefit most from an IM facility at Sioux City. They are the farthest from an IM facility of their own. Their closest facilities are in Wisconsin and the Chicago area. Jeff
SD60MAC9500 Backshop You also have to make sure that there's enough traffic to ensure a shift for the employees running it. If there's only 2-3 hours worth of lift, it's not efficient to run it. Well there's plenty of traffic generated in the Sioux City area to keep contractors busy at an IM ramp for a good 12 hour period. There's an assortment of meat packers, food processors, and cold storage. Also Cargill has a large facility for soybean processing, and Storm Lake, IA is only about a 70 mile dray to hypothetical IM ramp. Tyson Foods has 2 processing plants there.. Also railroads don't operate any drayage. That's handled by O/O's or drayage companies. There's no investemnt from the RR at that end. As well at many of the nations IM ramps. Contrators provide the lift equipment and operators.. I like Greyhounds idea of a "Union IM Ramp" It could be operated by a WATCO or Savage..
Backshop You also have to make sure that there's enough traffic to ensure a shift for the employees running it. If there's only 2-3 hours worth of lift, it's not efficient to run it.
You also have to make sure that there's enough traffic to ensure a shift for the employees running it. If there's only 2-3 hours worth of lift, it's not efficient to run it.
Well there's plenty of traffic generated in the Sioux City area to keep contractors busy at an IM ramp for a good 12 hour period. There's an assortment of meat packers, food processors, and cold storage. Also Cargill has a large facility for soybean processing, and Storm Lake, IA is only about a 70 mile dray to hypothetical IM ramp. Tyson Foods has 2 processing plants there..
Also railroads don't operate any drayage. That's handled by O/O's or drayage companies. There's no investemnt from the RR at that end. As well at many of the nations IM ramps. Contrators provide the lift equipment and operators..
I like Greyhounds idea of a "Union IM Ramp" It could be operated by a WATCO or Savage..
That's assuming you can get all that traffic to use intermodal.
The Council Bluffs (IAIS/UP) and Omaha (BNSF) intermodal facilities aren't that far away from Sioux City. Both of those locations are on their main routes. IM traffic from Sioux City is going to move in manifest trains to a point where they can be put on a train towards their final destinations.
I don't know about BNSF, but UP doesn't move IM east out of Council Bluffs. Nor does it move loads from the Chicago area into CB. There is an IM train that sets out containers for CB, that a manifest then picks up for the yard. But anytime I've looked, the containers are empty, going to CB to be loaded for western destinations in the area. Maybe even in Sioux City.
CN, of any of them, would probably benefit most from an IM facility at Sioux City. They are the farthest from an IM facility of their own. Their closest facilities are in Wisconsin and the Chicago area.
Jeff
You wouldn't need to get all the traffic converted to intermodal. Sioux City alone handles approximately 4500 truckloads inbound/outbound daily. Roughly 15% of those loads could be converted to intermodal. 675 loads O/D. Plenty of terminal work; Lifting, flips(which is mounting a container on a chassis), roadability (repairing and inspecting chassis), and other maintenance items. To keep contractors busy for 12 hrs.
The distance between Sioux City, Council Bluffs and Omaha is 94 miles via I-29. So I wouldn't say they are not that far apart. The average distance for a dray between the points is about the same. This isn't a problem for IM over 1000 miles. As linehaul cost can absorb that dray penalty. However it's a problem for short haul IM. Dray cost can make or break an IM lane. The C1's can only pick low hanging fruit for so long... In order for shorthaul IM to work one of the items needed to make SHIM cost effective, and competitive. Dray distances have to be reduced significantly.
Overmod One of the issues not mentioned so far is how the trailers or loaded container underframes get on and off the ramps. I suspect many drivers would not attempt circus-style loading without additional training and perhaps 'aids', and it would be ridiculous right up to widespread level-4 autonomous operation to station yard tractors at other than concentrated loading points.
One of the issues not mentioned so far is how the trailers or loaded container underframes get on and off the ramps. I suspect many drivers would not attempt circus-style loading without additional training and perhaps 'aids', and it would be ridiculous right up to widespread level-4 autonomous operation to station yard tractors at other than concentrated loading points.
OvermodI have proposed, and will probably continue to propose, that effective intermodal-transfer facilities be co-located with regional 'hubs' like Rotterdam, that are already chosen with an eye toward minimizing the overall regional cost, and maximizing operator convenience, of drayage. One of the issues not mentioned so far is how the trailers or loaded container underframes get on and off the ramps. I suspect many drivers would not attempt circus-style loading without additional training and perhaps 'aids', and it would be ridiculous right up to widespread level-4 autonomous operation to station yard tractors at other than concentrated loading points.
Worked at the B&O Wicomoco Street Ramp in Baltimore. It was a circus loading facility. All loading and unloading was performed by drivers and equipment in the empoyee of the Ramp. OTR drivers would drop/pick-up trailers from designated spots in the ramp's storage area. The ramp employed yard tractors that had a hydraulic fifth wheel tha would allow them pick up and drop trailers without the need to manually the landing gear on the trailers.
This was in the early 1970's and container shipping was barely in its infancy and 99% of the traffic handled was trailers. The one percent of containers were handled on their chassis just like trailers.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I have proposed, and will probably continue to propose, that effective intermodal-transfer facilities be co-located with regional 'hubs' like Rotterdam, that are already chosen with an eye toward minimizing the overall regional cost, and maximizing operator convenience, of drayage.
greyhounds jeffhergert I think it was still open under Chicago Central. Pre-Staggers, there were circus style ramps everywhere on all the railroads. Post Staggers it seems almost all disappeared as railroads gradually changed from retail to wholesale service. Jeff This one is complex to respond to. But I’ll do my best. First let me say that the “Circus ramps everywhere” required that intermodal shipments move through freight yards and in local train service. This often made the intermodal service vastly inferior to trucking service. It also increased the costs of intermodal service because it took more handling and equipment time. Then there were the idiotic government economic regulations. The government fools, and I mean that, used an average cost system that calculated costs by the carload, not the trailer load. (It was illegal to charge less than their foolishly calculated costs.) So, if a potential customer wanted to ship one trailer to a place such as Waterloo, IA it had to be “Mated” with another trailer going to Waterloo or have a government mandated higher, not truck competitive, charge. This “Marriage” resulted in a third-party middleman who added to the cost of intermodal movement. IF such middleman could produce two trailers from different shippers to move within 24 hours. Please know that the damn fool regulations did not require the two trailers to move on the same flatcar. Only that they move within 24 hours. “Ship ahead, mate to follow” was common. When the second trailer didn’t show up in time, we had a “Busted Marriage” That resulted in all kinds of disputes with customers and the accounting department. In short, before Staggers, it was very hard to retail because we had to find two trailers going from one origin to one destination at nearly the same time. After Staggers I could just say “We’ll charge $X for a trailer load.” We could still get two trailers on an old fashioned eighty-nine-foot flatcar. (Until trailers got longer.) I really don’t think class 1 railroads should retail. They can deal directly with large customers such as Walmart and Amazon. But that’s not really retailing. Walmart and Amazon are the retailers. Otherwise, the railroads deal with JB Hunt, FedEx, UPS, etc. Class 1 railroads are large manufacturers. They manufacture transportation. Large manufacturers don’t generally retail. There’s a reason for that. It’s called “Discrepancy of Size.” A large manufacturing organization won’t do to well dealing with a much smaller customer. And that’s why you buy a car from a Ford dealer instead of directly from Ford. But… I do think there is a need for more intermodal terminals. The railroads have focused on moving intermodal from ports. They need to look at moving more domestic freight originating in places such as Sioux City, Yakima, WA, etc. There’s a lot of money out there. Go get it.
jeffhergert I think it was still open under Chicago Central. Pre-Staggers, there were circus style ramps everywhere on all the railroads. Post Staggers it seems almost all disappeared as railroads gradually changed from retail to wholesale service. Jeff
The "busted marriage" scenario sure as hell makes me glad that I didn't get into the Revenue Accounting area until well after Staggers had taken place.
Will agree wholeheartedly that the Sioux City area would seem to be an excellent location for a new intermodal and/or logistics facility that could be utilized by UP, BNSF and CN. You've got a robust area to draw from with several commodity types all in play. As someone who's been in this industry for a while now, I fully realize that there's always obstacles that are going to be in the way but with some creative and out-of-the-box thinking, something truly worthwhile could come out of such a facility.
But I've also got to say that if there's one area/city that's absolutely crying for an intermodal facility, it's Cedar Rapids. You'd be drawing from not only Cedar Rapids/Iowa City itself but from a pretty large area in eastern Iowa as well. Consider: At one time, you had not one, not two, not three but FOUR intermodal facilities in the Cedar Rapids/Marion area - the Rock Island (later operated by CNW) in downtown, the Milwaukee Road (one in downtown and one on the mainline at Marion) and the IC/ICG in downtown. Now perhaps that's a bit of overkill there but a same type of "union" terminal that can be accessed by UP, CN and Crandic/IAIS is something that's long been overdue, IMHO.
And intermodal moving from Sioux City id also going to move in manifest trains, just like it used to when there was a ramp there.
I do agree that there should be more IM terminals, not just in Iowa either, but those off the beaten path will have IM start/end in a manifest train.
I don't see it ever happening, but maybe railroads should buy tractors and trailers/containers. Then become true freight transportation companies. But to make it work they would have to act like going out and finding and then moving freight was important.
jeffhergertI think it was still open under Chicago Central. Pre-Staggers, there were circus style ramps everywhere on all the railroads. Post Staggers it seems almost all disappeared as railroads gradually changed from retail to wholesale service. Jeff
SD70Dude greyhounds We hauled Sue Bee Honey east out of Sioux City. I never handled a complaint from them. Other business out of Sioux City/Sioux Falls (truck to Sioux City) was red meat in UPS reefers and hides. This was all TOFC over a circus ramp in SC. I'm presuming this was on the former IC/Chicago Central line that CN now operates. When and why did the Sioux City ramp close?
greyhounds We hauled Sue Bee Honey east out of Sioux City. I never handled a complaint from them. Other business out of Sioux City/Sioux Falls (truck to Sioux City) was red meat in UPS reefers and hides. This was all TOFC over a circus ramp in SC.
We hauled Sue Bee Honey east out of Sioux City. I never handled a complaint from them.
Other business out of Sioux City/Sioux Falls (truck to Sioux City) was red meat in UPS reefers and hides.
This was all TOFC over a circus ramp in SC.
I'm presuming this was on the former IC/Chicago Central line that CN now operates.
When and why did the Sioux City ramp close?
I think it was still open under Chicago Central.
Pre-Staggers, there were circus style ramps everywhere on all the railroads. Post Staggers it seems almost all disappeared as railroads gradually changed from retail to wholesale service.
rrnut282A quick question or two. Where are those SC loads going? Is it in all directions or 80% headed to Chicago and/or points in that direction? Being able to aggregate multiple loads headed in the same direction are where railroads shine. One load going to 40 different states per day, not so much. Though that is where having three lines to originate those loads may shift the equation back in favor of the railroads somewhat. Will the railroads make money on a Chicago run if that is where most of the traffic ends up going? Having a list of destinations of the goods from the SC area would be helpful in determining viability. Knowing shippers dream markets (where they would like to expand into) would be key to growing this endeavor. That would require a marketing department with real people and not a computer form that speak to the shippers to get that information.
1) The west coast. With 39.51 million people California has a larger population than Canada. 11.9% of the US population is in California. There is some red meat production in California. About 3.1% of the US red meat comes from California. Note the mismatch. 11.9% of the people with 3.1% of the production. They bring in the rest of the meat. In addition, there are significant exports of meat through California ports to countries such as Japan, South Korea, etc.
2) Florida. With 21.48 million people Florida has 6.5% of the US population. In state red meat production is 0.1% of the US total. They’ve got to bring in the meat.
3) I could go on. With places such as the northeast etc. But I think I’ve made my point.
Don't get your panties in a bunch if you're called out for misstating something.
Also, if it was such a great idea, why did UPS quit doing it? They get out of businesses that aren't profitable. They just sold their Freight unit a year or two ago. Maybe they needed better marketing...
BackshopI've never known UPS to have reefers but if I'm wrong, someone can correct me.
OK, I'll correct you.
UPS had an operation called "Martrax." I believe that's the correct spelling.
Martrax was set up to move packages in and temperature controlled freight out. They used this to get a revenue load both ways.
They would use the trailers to move packages by TOFC to their sort facility in Sioux Falls over our Sioux City intermodal terminal. Then they'd get red meat loads going east.
Is there anything else I can help you with?
Good luck on your new (resumed) career. My background was as a "Traffic Manager" for an LTL carrier in the 1980s before I made the shift to sales in another industry. I have a number of customers in the TL and LTL industry and am aware of the trends and challenges. Plus my son is in 3PL in Chicago and we chat frequently about the challenges.
I collect railroad freight schedule books, not too many of those around these days and have 3 Conrail books. I am currently reviewing/analyzing the 1988 Conrail intermodal schedules, primarily the premium service trains ("Mail" and "TV" trains handling piggyback rather than double stacks). Primarily the East Coast to St. Louis trains now but will later look at the East Coast to Chicago movements and then the eastbounds.
Here is my point....Conrail hustled for intermodal, or at least it appeared they did. For example at first glance TV 3 appeared to be a Kearny, NJ to East St. Louis train leaving at 7pm and arriving in EStL at 0500 two days later...pretty good service. Lets face it, no trucker could legally offer anything better than 2 day service between points. But, looking at the schedule, TV 3 was much much more with blocks leaving Kearny for Conway, Chicago (Mail or UPS), Harrisburg, Detroit, Pittsburgh (Mail or UPS), Columbus, Indianapolis, and E.StL (Mail or UPS) for a total of eight blocks.
At Harrisburg was a big shuffle with the Conway, Chicago, Harrisburg, Detroit blocks set out for rapid transfer to other intermodals and pickup of blocks for Pittsburgh (mail), EStL, Indy, and columbus.
Similar operation took place train Mail 3 between Kearny (730am) to EStL (1300). In other words and evening train to handle the early UPS and truckload loads making the evening cutoff and then a morning train with other "mail" which couldnt arrive until during the night. These were complex trains with multiple blocks and tight connections...similar to passenger trains in the 50s. Harrisburg was the key to make it work.
Conrail also ran Boston to EStL with a dedicated train operating from Cleveland to ESt.L with that freight and other blocks (Indy). Obviously there wasnt enough Boston - EStL to make it work but building freight out of Albany, Syracuse, buffalo, and Cleveland made it work...in pre-PSR days.
Today CSX runs I7 and I8 between NJ and EStL, with a pickup in Indy. Total containers/trailers total 150 on a good day with only about 40-50 domestic, the balance international...perhaps about 5 UPS containers/trailers. NS barely offers intermodal service in that lane.
My point is to expect today's railroads to offer any sort of "blocked" intermodal service is asking quite a bit. Conrail hustled (with no competition other than truckers) and made it work. I do not expect UP, BNSF, or CN in Iowa to get excited about that market until the coal completely goes away and they realize the Conrail model is critical for growth...or to stem to negetive growth.
BTW if anyone has a line on any old freight schedules let me know.
Ed
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
A quick question or two. Where are those SC loads going? Is it in all directions or 80% headed to Chicago and/or points in that direction? Being able to aggregate multiple loads headed in the same direction are where railroads shine. One load going to 40 different states per day, not so much. Though that is where having three lines to originate those loads may shift the equation back in favor of the railroads somewhat.
Will the railroads make money on a Chicago run if that is where most of the traffic ends up going? Having a list of destinations of the goods from the SC area would be helpful in determining viability. Knowing shippers dream markets (where they would like to expand into) would be key to growing this endeavor. That would require a marketing department with real people and not a computer form that speak to the shippers to get that information.
greyhounds Backshop So now the railroad is buying and operating Class 8 tractors to move trailers to customers? How long would it take to pay them off? Which warehouses would they be operating forklifts in? No. The railroads won't have to buy any highway tractors, Class 8 or otherwise. The joint logistics park will almost certainly be operated by a contractor. That contractor will hire local truckers to do the drayage and lifts. "Which warehouses?" The warehouses at the proposed logistics park. Some people just flat out make stuff up to throw in the way of innovation and business development. This is a salient example of that.
Backshop So now the railroad is buying and operating Class 8 tractors to move trailers to customers? How long would it take to pay them off? Which warehouses would they be operating forklifts in?
As far as all this infrastructure being operated by a third party. Who is going to take the chance on it? If the railroads don't see a need for a lift, who is going to build a facility and hope the railroad will think it worthwhile to service. I know your answer to the question already. "You people never think of the possibilities". Yes, we do. Some of us also have business experience.
BackshopSo now the railroad is buying and operating Class 8 tractors to move trailers to customers? How long would it take to pay them off? Which warehouses would they be operating forklifts in?
CSSHEGEWISCH Is there any available vacant land in the Sioux City area that is in close proximity to all three railroads and in reasonable proximity to shippers? The NIMBY factor may come into play and ignore it at your own peril.
Is there any available vacant land in the Sioux City area that is in close proximity to all three railroads and in reasonable proximity to shippers? The NIMBY factor may come into play and ignore it at your own peril.
There may be some farmland avaible to convert off of both UP and BNSF mains south of the city..
Hmm. So the accounting and marketing guys who finish their tasks is the allotted time have an hour left in their eight hour day go clean toilets until 5:00?
This story can applied to many industries and even aspects of life. Management at the big railroads want to go after the easy stuff (big intermodal trains from point A to point B) and shun the more challenging stuff (perishable/expedited freight and carload).
The class 1s are going to need a sea change management attitude.
greyhounds BaltACD If there is one thing that sours a employee's attitude, it is being assigned 'make work' when he has completed ALL of the functions their job entails. I fully agree with that. However, I do not regard drayage or operating a forklift as “Make Work.” ...
BaltACD If there is one thing that sours a employee's attitude, it is being assigned 'make work' when he has completed ALL of the functions their job entails.
Just because you don't doesn't mean the employees involved wouldn't consider it as 'make work'.
I was involved in Dispatching for the last half of my career. The reality of Dispatching is 90% of the job is thinking. However, when it comes to supervision what they can only comprehend as working is manipulating switches, signals, track authorities or talking on the radio of telephone. Very few people are able to 'THINK' when performing other tasks. The emphasis on physically observable 'morement' as a indication that a Dispatcher is working is counter productive.
BaltACDIf there is one thing that sours a employee's attitude, it is being assigned 'make work' when he has completed ALL of the functions their job entails.
greyhounds Backshop You also have to make sure that there's enough traffic to ensure a shift for the employees running it. If there's only 2-3 hours worth of lift, it's not efficient to run it. And here we have it. In spades. We’ve got an operating department guy figuring out an excuse for why it won’t work instead of figuring how to make it work. This would put freight and revenue on the railroads. Can’t have that. If there’s only 2-3 hours of lift, have the employees involved do other things for the rest of their shift. For example, if the employees hired are required to have CDL’s you could have them move trailers/containers to and from customers when they weren’t loading/unloading. Alternatively, have them operate forklifts in the warehouses. And, if we really get desperate, go sell some more business so there’s more time required to load/unload the trains. This isn’t hard.
If there is one thing that sours a employee's attitude, it is being assigned 'make work' when he has completed ALL of the functions their job entails.
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