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Rail market share, PSR, and autonomous operations.

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Posted by tree68 on Sunday, January 23, 2022 8:13 AM

Backshop
Not container ships, other than ONE that just started operations.  Also, the St Lawrence Seaway and Welland Canal limit salties to 730 feet or so and most are in the 600 foot area.  Many seem to be bringing wind turbine components in.  Monroe, MI is a major destination of them.  I believe that Duluth is, also.

We see a lot of bulk carriers on the St Lawrence.  Many are to/from Canadian ports.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by andrewjonathon on Sunday, January 23, 2022 3:18 AM

I think this article does a decent job of explaining some of the challenges rail has to overcome to regain or take market share from trucks. For example even when an opportunity arises in a tight truck market for rail to take business from trucks railroads are constrained by the available supply of rail equipment which is difficult to change in the short term.

https://www.transportdive.com/news/trucking-spot-rates-tight-capacity-rail-intermodal/586586/

 

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Posted by Shadow the Cats owner on Saturday, January 22, 2022 11:32 PM

Schneider still has plenty of teams for time critical loads and for customers that demand it.  Jb Hunt also has teams still for the same reason.  There's some areas where they serve were intermodal services aren't the greatest.  

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Posted by greyhounds on Saturday, January 22, 2022 10:38 PM

zugmann
Don't think my customers that get paper rolls  would be on board with that.  That would be a LOT of trucks (and more truck doors) instead of a few TBOXes.  My grain customers would probably feel the same way, come to think of it.  There is more to RRing than IM service.

If you have a rail siding, and you like your rail siding, you can keep your rail siding.

What I was saying is that going to the expense of building a new rail siding for most customers that don't have one isn't necessary.

 

Backshop
As long as we still keep importing a lot of our retail goods, there will always be plenty of long railroad hauls.  Ships only get goods to the periphery of the country. A

The long hauls from/to the ports aren't going away.  That's not the issue with rail market share.

What skews market share dominance to trucking is that most freight hauls are of shorter distances where trucks currently have a cost advantage.  

People have complained about low rail market share.  Well, come up with a way to be truck competitive between LA and Phoenix, Las Vegas, etc.

 

"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
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Posted by Backshop on Saturday, January 22, 2022 9:16 PM

tree68

 

 
Backshop
Ships only get goods to the periphery of the country.

 

Not entirely true.  Salty's call on Chicago, I believe...  

 

Not container ships, other than ONE that just started operations.  Also, the St Lawrence Seaway and Welland Canal limit salties to 730 feet or so and most are in the 600 foot area.  Many seem to be bringing wind turbine components in.  Monroe, MI is a major destination of them.  I believe that Duluth is, also.

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Posted by tree68 on Saturday, January 22, 2022 9:02 PM

Backshop
Ships only get goods to the periphery of the country.

Not entirely true.  Salty's call on Chicago, I believe...  

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
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Posted by Backshop on Saturday, January 22, 2022 7:14 PM

tree68

 

And it's something the trucks don't have to deal with, as such.  They already provide door-to-door service.

 

If the railroads are going to pick up market share, they'll have to go after the longer trucking runs.  In some ways, that's already happening, as seen by the presence of trailers (and containers) from the major trucking companies on intermodal trains.

The question is how much of that exists?  I don't have that information.  I would opine that the railroads might pick up a percentage point or two, but not much more.

Good springboard for discussion.

 

Actually, quite a bit, it seems.  JB Hunt and Schneider National used to be mainly OTR companies.  Now, both of them have almost totally morphed into regional/intermodal/dedicated/final mile carriers. I don't believe that either still runs long distance teams anymore, unless it's for specialized operations.

As long as we still keep importing a lot of our retail goods, there will always be plenty of long railroad hauls.  Ships only get goods to the periphery of the country.

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Posted by zugmann on Saturday, January 22, 2022 1:57 PM

greyhounds
There is no need to serve the facilities with a rail siding. An intermodal siding fairly close by will do just fine.

Don't think my customers that get paper rolls  would be on board with that.  That would be a LOT of trucks (and more truck doors) instead of a few TBOXes. 

My grain customers would probably feel the same way, come to think of it. 

There is more to RRing than IM service. 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

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Posted by tree68 on Saturday, January 22, 2022 1:56 PM

Railroads have to deal with the "first mile / last mile" issue.  Which is to say aggregation.

And that's the most expensive part.

And it's something the trucks don't have to deal with, as such.  They already provide door-to-door service.

This explains the proliferation of railroad shortlines.  They handle the aggregation, switching the small customers, usually on both ends of the line haul (probably two different shortlines, but I digress).  They can then deliver their collection of cars to a Class 1 to haul to where they are going.  Odds are there is some enroute sorting/switching to be done, but until the railroads start contracting that out, it's part of doing business.

Actually, the trucking industry does deal with some of that.  Major retailers maintain warehouses from which local deliveries originate.  A trailer load of name-your-product gets delivered to the warehouse, the product is split into smaller quantities, gets delivered by the local runs, etc.

If the railroads are going to pick up market share, they'll have to go after the longer trucking runs.  In some ways, that's already happening, as seen by the presence of trailers (and containers) from the major trucking companies on intermodal trains.

The question is how much of that exists?  I don't have that information.  I would opine that the railroads might pick up a percentage point or two, but not much more.

Good springboard for discussion.

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
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Come ride the rails with me!
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Rail market share, PSR, and autonomous operations.
Posted by greyhounds on Saturday, January 22, 2022 1:37 PM
OK, you can just ignore this; or you can think about it and comment; or you can just read it. Take your pick. I plan to address these issues one at a time. Sometimes they will overlap.
 

1)      Rail market share

 
Well, first define the market you’re talking about. Market share of what? Tons? Ton-miles? Revenue? What? And please don’t quote some government bureaucrat.
 
Freight movement in the US concentrates on shorter hauls. There are many more shipments moving 200 miles than 2,000 miles. This greatly favors trucking. Trucks have far less aggregation to do than trains. A trucker’s unit of production, dependent on the freight, is maybe 15-22 tons. A railroad needs to aggregate into a much larger unit of production. Something called “a Train.” 
 
This means that the railroad must take the freight through terminals/yards to aggregate into their production units. This adds terminal costs. Costs that the trucker doesn’t have. If there are enough miles to run, the railroads’ line haul cost advantage can overcome the added terminal costs. But most shipments are shorter hauls, and those miles aren’t there.
 
So, when the freight market grows, it will concentrate in the shorter haul moves that currently favor motor carrier movements. This will reduce rail market share. There is currently nothing rail management can do about this.
 
The unions could help by allowing one person crews. One person crews would reduce the required size for a train to be economically efficient. But we’ve all seen the vitriol produced by even mentioning one person crews.
 
Autonomous rail vehicles would help by reducing the need for rail aggregation. There is no need to serve the facilities with a rail siding. An intermodal siding fairly close by will do just fine.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.

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