Back in the '50s railroads were proud of their physical plant and would repaint at the first sign if rust. Now they seem to like the au natural rust look. Realize the bridge will not fail from a little rust but where is the pride of ownership. Yes it costs a lot of money to paint a bridge but are the accountants running the company with the experienced operating guys pushed out.
ccltrainsYes it costs a lot of money to paint a bridge but are the accountants running the company with the experienced operating guys pushed out.
Yes.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Nowadays they get bridges made of steel that is designed to rust into a patina (think Cor-Ten). No paint needed.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD70Dude Nowadays they gehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weathering_steel t bridges made of steel that is designed to rust into a patina (think Cor-Ten). No paint needed.
Nowadays they gehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weathering_steel t bridges made of steel that is designed to rust into a patina (think Cor-Ten). No paint needed.
Cor-Ten steel came into use for buildings in 1964. It had been used for some railroad cars previously.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weathering_steel
Most railroad bridges that you see today were built before 1964 and are indeed RUSTING. And I concur with ccltrains that "Yes it costs a lot of money to paint a bridge but are the accountants running the company with the experienced operating guys pushed out. "
While I concur with the whole accountants thing, one must remember that we're living in a different time.
Years ago, the paint crew could scrape and sandblast a bridge and just let the debris fall into the water (or whatever) below. If some paint dripped, no big deal.
Nowadays, that's all got to be captured and properly disposed of, especially if there's a possibility of lead. Thus a simple scrape and paint job gets a lot more complicated, with the associated costs.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
It makes me wonder if the accountants are figuring that the bridge damage caused by deferred maintenance won't show up until after they've found another job (or got thier bonus). Or just plan on pinning the blame on the bridge team.
I believe bridges are required to be inspected yearly, and not by the bean counters, but by qualified bridge engineers. I trust the results of their inspections are properly communicated and formed into necessary action plans.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD I believe bridges are required to be inspected yearly, and not by the bean counters, but by qualified bridge engineers. I trust the results of their inspections are properly communicated and formed into necessary action plans.
They are, to the best of my knowledge. I had control of our track one spring a few years ago and had to give out permission to the bridge inspectors as needed.
Where the bean counters may enter into the maintenance equation might be when the inspectors recommend some maintenance, such as "if we do this the bridge will be good for another X years." Bah. "I" don't care if it makes it to next year as long as money shows up in my wallet...
We have several bridges in the Plymouth, MI area still painted "C&O".
BackshopWe have several bridges in the Plymouth, MI area still painted "C&O".
Next time I'm in Milford I'll have to check the viaduct...
One is at 5 Mile Rd and Northville Rd and the other on Hines Dr just east of Wilcox. There may be a couple of others but I'm having cranial vaporlock right now.
My thoughts go back to my childhood home in Brooke County WV which has three railroad bridges over the Ohio River (Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh and WV, and Wheeling steel). All three of these bridges are about 100 years old and have a rust patina. One highway bridge (Market Street to Steubenville) is over 100 years old and is routinely painted by the state highway department. Need to limit the bean counters authority.
Paint can cover a lot of bad situations that can cause failure.
SD70DudeNowadays they get bridges made of steel that is designed to rust into a patina (think Cor-Ten). No paint needed.
Let's not forget the Atlanta Omni....made with Cor-Ten and still failed due to corrosion. I believe that movement was it's undoing, flex from solar cycling allowing just enough disturbance in the patina to allow the corrosion to continue to penetrate.
Not that I think many bridges are built with it, but bridges being dynamic structures that they are, appear to me to be an ill-suited application.
I agree with the assessment that accountants prevail over maintenance objectives. Why spend all that money keeping the neighborhhood looking nice if you can send it to the stockholders, instead?
In comparison with bridge engineering in today's world - railroad bridges engineered and designed 100+ years ago were designed to withstand the pounding augment of steam engines by engineers that did not know the finite strength of the material they were using so whatever they built was, in comparison to today, over designed and much stronger than the same structure if it were to be built today.,
BaltACD Paint can cover a lot of bad situations that can cause failure.
Backshop One is at 5 Mile Rd and Northville Rd and the other on Hines Dr just east of Wilcox. There may be a couple of others but I'm having cranial vaporlock right now.
Milford has two (now Lake States) - Main Street and Huron Street.
I'll have to check the M59 bridge, too...
1) Paint inhibits deterioration, thus lengthening bridge life.
2) Paint highlights deterioration so it can be found and repaired as soon as possible, thus lengthening bridge life.
tree68 While I concur with the whole accountants thing, one must remember that we're living in a different time. Years ago, the paint crew could scrape and sandblast a bridge and just let the debris fall into the water (or whatever) below. If some paint dripped, no big deal. Nowadays, that's all got to be captured and properly disposed of, especially if there's a possibility of lead. Thus a simple scrape and paint job gets a lot more complicated, with the associated costs.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
EuclidIt could in theory, but it seems unlikely because deterioration usually damages paint. So not only does a lack of paint cause deterioration; but the presence of paint can highlight damage, which helps to discover deterioration. So paint provides two advantages over not painting: 1) Paint inhibits deterioration, thus lengthening bridge life. 2) Paint highlights deterioration so it can be found and repaired as soon as possible, thus lengthening bridge life. It is true that if you don’t inspect, but just rely on paint to provide the cosmetic objective of covering unsightly damage; that will accelerate damage. The best approach for long bridge life is to keep it painted and inspect diligently for signs of deterioration.
I've watched WisDOT install new railroad bridges all over SE Wisconsin and few of them are painted because the rust patina that forms acts in the same way as paint preventing oxygen and moisture from reaching the steel underneath. These are 100 year duration bridges as well...........they will never need to be painted.
So not all bridges have to be painted to protect them, some are designed to have the rust patina form and that protects them as would the paint. Some freeway bridges are painted for cosmetic reasons..........others are not. Depends on the city and location of the bridge.
Now I cannot speak for areas where salt air is a factor because I have no experience or observation there.
Moving from BRIDGES to VIADUCTS, has anyone noticed the deterioration of former NYC concrete viaducts such as the one across the Miami River on the East side of Sidney Ohio. Conctete spalling off and I think I could see some rebar.
Regarding the Memphis I-40 bridge:
"The fired inspector had missed the crack in 2016, 2017, 2019 and 2020. Another inspector who had missed the crack in 2018 had never inspected that portion of the bridge before, and the department said he has been “verbally counselled” and will receive additional training.
The department’s report said the agency’s failure to adequately respond to employees concerned with the fired inspector’s job performance “perpetuated a culture where team members did not feel they had the authority or support to question a lead inspector’s procedures or thoroughness.”"
Ed
(1) Railroad steel bridges are inspected at least once a year and the Cls. 1's tend to look at them 2x or more.
(2) The FRA criteria always pretty rigid, has gotten tougher in the last 5 years, especially on how they look at existing years.
(3) It's the Cls 3 and the industrials you need to be concerned about. Operating people with no engineering background, empty coffers/ slim margins and generally assuming former class 1 lines without all the documentation (lawyers love to hide the stuff, new railroads frequently fail to require the stuff at hand-over and FRA/STB do not require it or demand it. Your FRA Bridge Plan (everybody is supposed to have one by now) or lack of one may shut you down. ....I'm more concerned about rickety small town or backwards counties than the rail bridges.
(4) What Cooper's Rating did the bridge start out with? E-What? If you are less than E-63, you may have bought big liability trouble. Traffic on the line?
(5) Reinforced concrete spalling is a concern like ELiner is talking about. Wonder if that Big4 bridge is about to get a visit from Osmose's concrete epoxy folks et al? ($$$$)...Uncle Pete and BNSF both have had issues in Iowa lately. (and some of the old CB&Q and M&StL bridges were funky to start with.
(6) Wonder how long it will be before some PSR financial wunderkind who never gets his shoes dirty and doesn't wear steel toed boots finds himself liable for some incident due to his decisions? (and can't pawn off the blame on M/W being at fault because people aren't there anymore)... FRA is investigating.
(7) Still an awful lot of timber structures out there soldiering on.
Thanks MC, for separating the real from the many speculations that preceded you at this site. MC and his colleges deal with bridge issues every day.
Backshop We have several bridges in the Plymouth, MI area still painted "C&O".
There's more than one steel-framed RR bridge around that is still painted "Atlantic Coast Line" or "ACL". One is beside U.S. 84 between Quitman and Valdosta, GA, on the "Bow Line". Not steel bridges, but there are still many concrete overpasses and panels in buildings with "Seaboard" (as in Air Line) cast into the concrete. Many of them have the year "1929" also cast into the concrete.
The totally amazing thing is that there are still timber trestles in existence in the 21st Century.
BaltACD The totally amazing thing is that there are still timber trestles in existence in the 21st Century.
I guess it's equally amazing that there are masonry viaducts and bridges in the 21st Century, too.
Some things just keep working.
7j43kI guess it's equally amazing that there are masonry viaducts and bridges in the 21st Century, too.
Starucca (Pennsylvania bluestone) is still handling traffic as it has since around 1853.
The Lackawanna had a real winner in the concrete mix they used for bridges like Tunkahannock, etc.
I visited Nicholson a few years ago, and there's evidence of spalling, but it's so massive that a few chips aren't going to have a major effect on it.
Replacing either with a "modern" structure would be cost prohibitive.
The same is true for most of the stone bridges built by the first railroads.
Remember, too, that there are a good many concrete coaling towers that are still there only by virtue of the fact that taking them down would be a monumental task.
7j43k BaltACD The totally amazing thing is that there are still timber trestles in existence in the 21st Century. I guess it's equally amazing that there are masonry viaducts and bridges in the 21st Century, too. Some things just keep working. Ed
Masonry has a much longer life span than does wood. The amazing thing is not that they exist in the 21st Century, its that they even got built in the 19th Century.
tree68 Remember, too, that there are a good many concrete coaling towers that are still there only by virtue of the fact that taking them down would be a monumental task.
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