So I had another one of my great ideas. Thought I would float this out there and get feedback. Scraping is a profitable way for school districts to raise money for sports and education. I am curious maybe some of you freight railroaders could tell me if this was feasible. Have a central transload spur at a large scrapper in a large school district or surrounded by school districts and have a fill the 100 ton railroad gondola contest over several months. Folks would collect aluminum cans they would either crush them themselves and/or run them through a crusher (a good bulk crusher can be located onsite for about $10-15k. Once crushed, loaded in the 100 ton railroad gondola which when full would be far less than 100 tons probably, then ship the shipment to a buyer.
So a couple of things would be needed here:
1. Co-Sponsor with a commercial scrapper (see link) on a rail line.
https://www.altertrading.com/locations/63
(formerly Miller Compressing alongside Muskego Yard in Milwaukee, WI)
2. Accept uncrushed cans as well as crushed cans but say you prefer crushed. The scrapper in Milwaukee (link above will crush the cans for you).
3. Rail served scrapper would arrange for gondola once volume is met and sell to a buyer after loading gondola then ship via rail.
So would this be feasible? Full of holes? Take forever to fill a 100 ton gondola with crushed aluminum soda cans? What say you?
If the above concept does not work in your mind, would there be a way to make it work? Maybe accept more than aluminum cans?
Might be a problem having the car sit there for a long time. Waiting for cans. If you just park it and leave it for a couple of months, that car isn't making any money traveling, which is what freight cars are supposed to do.
If you limit the time the car is parked, that solves the above. But you'll have to have "the folks" save up their cans at home. Somewhere. And then attack the newly delivered car with their treasure.
Really, though, it sounds kinda fun.
The word "impossible" just doesn't seem to fit.
Ed
Your state must not have a rebate for bottles and cans, out here they are worth 10¢ each at the bottle depot. 'Bottle drives' as they are known are not uncommon as fundraisers for various groups.
I agree with Ed that having the car sitting still while you collected the material would be an issue, demurrage would likely eat up any money you would make.
It would be better to collect the material in a big pile on the ground, and then make an event of it when you loaded the railcar.
Of course, you could also just sell the material to the scrapyard and then let them worry about shipping it.
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-an Articulate Malcontent
SD70DudeIt would be better to collect the material in a big pile on the ground, and then make an event of it when you loaded the railcar.
That would work because it is their normal MO of doing business at that location they usually have 7-10 gondolas in their spur and another 7-10 empty waiting in Muskego yard, they fill the gondolas pretty fast with scrap steel. I think they truck out the aluminum cans though because aluminum is so light but I never went up close and looked. They definitely ship the steel compressed or shredded out by rail and sometimes ship it in via rail in rough unprocessed piles in the gondolas.
Some of the folks that live on the street take their garbage bags of aluminum cans to that location that they go dumpster diving for. It's kind of like how currency exchange works they pay less than market rate for the aluminum weight then they make money off the spread between what they pay and what they resell for.
I'm with Dude - we only get five cents a can or bottle, but it's a deposit nonetheless. And can and bottle drives are very common here as fundraisers for all sorts of causes.
My fire department used to go out door-to-door collecting bags of bottles and cans, then sorted and counted them before taking them to someone who would take the lot. Ten thousand cans at a nickel each adds up.
Lately the redemption centers have been donating the use of their trailers or box trucks as a collection point. It's left in a central location for several days. Then they take it back to their redemption point, count up the containers, and make the donation to the cause.
That's not to say that a scrap drive wouldn't work, but you'd still have to separate the materials and get someone to accept it all. And worry about people taking scrap back out. The "we'll take anything" town-wide trash collections here usually turn into a shopping fest for people going through what's been put curbside, picking out what they value.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Fancy idea, with a railroad spin to it, but probably not workable. How many cans do you think you'd need to fill a rail car? I think when I was a kid picking up aluminum cans, they were about 20 cans to the pound(?) Since most pop is sold in a plastic bottle now, you're talking about 4 million(?) beer cans to fill a rail car? Around here, every small town has a civic group or school that collects cans at a central point, then takes them to a recycler for cash. That seems way easier on everybody.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
A few musings (now that I can get back on the crapatronic system):
Many railroads have 'noninterchange' cars including many gondolas that likely see intermittent service; one of these could likely easily be 'donated' for the length of the drive.
The problem is that the gondolas in particular tend to be ratty (at best!) so you'd have to make up some kind of wrap or skirt going around the car probably hanging from magnets -- this could advertise the event, and be re-used for subsequent or repeated efforts.
Ensuring the cans are washed might become an issue if the load 'increments' slowly. You don't want a vermin magnet (see 'leaking grain cars' for a similar sort of issue...)
You could provide some commercial can crushers for the public to use -- the kind with the long handle. Or have garbage cans for the public deposit, with volunteers or Scouts or whatever periodically running crush 'n transload sessions... is this a form of intermodal logistics?
Note that the car itself doesn't need to be moved to the recycler's -- although you could have some fun and publicity getting the hosting railroad to actually pull the car until it is 'out of sight on its way'. I don't know if there's a practical high-frequency eddy-current 'electromagnet' arrangement that will lift aluminum out of a steel gon, so I think you need to consider how to get the cans out of the car as well as into it. I can think of some options; some will be more 'cost-effective' than others, but having volunteers inside the car shoveling or bagging doesn't seem like it would be attractive to insurance underwriters, if you take my meaning.
Something that immediately suggests itself is that you don't have to fill the whole car in bulk -- you could easily have old garbage containers retired from local service -- the roughly rectangular plastic kind with or without their wheels -- arranged inside the car, and arrange to lift these out and transfer or dump them. Keep one to handle the goodies from those inevitable enthusiasts who just chuck cans or bags into the car itself...
Something to watch, and handle correctly, will be people who use the opportunity for free garbage service or to get rid of stuff the local agency won't take: tires, chemicals, dead possums, etc. etc. etc. In this modern world some deer cams or equivalent might go a long way toward precluding this, or allowing an impromptu revival of Mark Twain's story about the multiple reselling of the 50-pound sack of stuff -- was it flour or sugar? I find I can't remember...
In some places you'd be competing with the homeless or otherwise impoverished, depriving them of their means to sustenance.
Rick
rixflix aka Captain Video. Blessed be Jean Shepherd and all His works!!! Hooray for 1939, the all time movie year!!! I took that ride on the Reading but my Baby caught the Katy and left me a mule to ride.
It's a DUMB idea. UBCs (used beverage cans) are not shipped to a consumer loose, crushed or not. They are baled or bundled. There used to be a market for shredded cans but I haven't seen that in years. The time spent unloading (from a truck, Haven't seen them shipped by rail in almost 40 years) will affect the price. Why would a scrap dealer cut his own throat by facilitating your sale to a consumer? As others have said, sell them to the dealer who is equiped to package and ship them.
tdmidget It's a DUMB idea. UBCs (used beverage cans) are not shipped to a consumer loose, crushed or not. They are baled or bundled. There used to be a market for shredded cans but I haven't seen that in years. The time spent unloading (from a truck, Haven't seen them shipped by rail in almost 40 years) will affect the price. Why would a scrap dealer cut his own throat by facilitating your sale to a consumer? As others have said, sell them to the dealer who is equiped to package and ship them.
Actually it's kind of DUMB to comment without reading the entire thread in detail. Skimming through a thread and plopping a comment like this is not really a conversation.
As others have said, sell them to the dealer who is equiped to package and ship them.
Exactly what I proposed, see point 1 in my post and please read their website link before you make statements about them cutting their own throat because they are a scrapper themselves and take uncrushed aluminum cans by street folks and other sources.
Also I already covered rail vs truck, speculatively saying that they probably shipped by truck due to volume vs weight aspect.....you did not have to repeat that part again.
They can still ship by rail via shipping container. Just because you do not see it with your eyes does not mean it does not happen. One of the largest processors in the world recieves crushed aluminum cans from all over the world in bales and they are based in the UK. Sooooo, not all OTR Truck.
rixflixIn some places you'd be competing with the homeless or otherwise impoverished, depriving them of their means to sustenance.
Not really and have no idea how you pieced that together.
Murphy Siding Fancy idea, with a railroad spin to it, but probably not workable. How many cans do you think you'd need to fill a rail car? I think when I was a kid picking up aluminum cans, they were about 20 cans to the pound(?) Since most pop is sold in a plastic bottle now, you're talking about 4 million(?) beer cans to fill a rail car? Around here, every small town has a civic group or school that collects cans at a central point, then takes them to a recycler for cash. That seems way easier on everybody.
Yup, 65,000 crushed cans per bale, so it would take forever......which is what I was trying to determine.
A popular thing around here for a while was to make letters out of chicken wire frames to spell whatever word you want, and fill those up with cans. Then those cans are taken to the scrapyard. Kind of cute, but also looked kind of trashy at the same time.
Oh yeah, and railcars of scrap stink (literally). Old metal, old water, rust, and whatever else is floating in there. Not something you'd want sitting around in the sun for a long period of time at a place that gets many people nearby.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmannOh yeah, and railcars of scrap stink (literally).
Had a friend who refused to take her own bottles and cans to those self-service machines. Not because she was snobby or anything like that - she hated the smell (mostly stale beer). She let her daughter take care of them.
tree68Had a friend who refused to take her own bottles and cans to those self-service machines. Not because she was snobby or anything like that - she hated the smell (mostly stale beer). She let her daughter take care of them.
C'mon man your supposed to rinse them out with water first.
zugmann Oh yeah, and railcars of scrap stink (literally). Old metal, old water, rust, and whatever else is floating in there. Not something you'd want sitting around in the sun for a long period of time at a place that gets many people nearby.
Cowhide about the only think that smells worse than those is pure mercaptan gas at full freaking strength. That crap there makes even the death flower smell good.
Shadow the Cats owner Cowhide about the only think that smells worse than those is pure mercaptan gas at full freaking strength. That crap there makes even the death flower smell good.
I think it was in a hazmat class that the story was told about someone in the gas industry that somehow got a bit of mercaptan on the outside of his lip. Apparently it didn't bother him (probably got used to the smell), but his wife sure didn't appreciate it when she kissed him when he got home...
My office is near the gas storage area for a larger utility in the area. A couple weeks ago the yard had an unpleasant smell. Those who work in the office and shops were like the tank wash had a problem or something like that. Nope a gas storage line had developed a leak. We didn't know where it was located but to us it was normal smells of the yard.
CMStPnP rixflix In some places you'd be competing with the homeless or otherwise impoverished, depriving them of their means to sustenance. Not really and have no idea how you pieced that together.
rixflix In some places you'd be competing with the homeless or otherwise impoverished, depriving them of their means to sustenance.
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