CRIP 4376I live abut 45 minutes from a blade factory in SE Iowa. We see these things all the time on the highways around here. You don't realize how long they are until you pass one on the highway. The tip with the flag is in motion and it can be unnerving. They don't always ship by truck. Sometimes we see dedicated blade trains go past our house. Days later, you may see an empty one going back.
A similar highway situation - Was driving I-95 through SC in mid-January one year - about 40 degrees and raining - passed a convoy of long (180-200 foot estimated) prestressed concrete beams. They each had a steerable boggie attached to the end of the beam that contained stop lights, turn signals and a drivers seat with a plexiglass windshield - no other defense for the driver from the elements. Can't think of a much more miserable job under the circumstance.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I live abut 45 minutes from a blade factory in SE Iowa. We see these things all the time on the highways around here. You don't realize how long they are until you pass one on the highway. The tip with the flag is in motion and it can be unnerving. They don't always ship by truck. Sometimes we see dedicated blade trains go past our house. Days later, you may see an empty one going back.
Wow, I did not know that there was a second, nearly identical collision at that same crossing just 7 years after the first one. The one I am referring to above was the first one which occurred in 1993. That one put much of the train on the ground. I don’t recall that anyone was killed but there were lots of injuries, mostly to passengers on the train as they were thrown out of their seats and acquired broken bones.
The truck driver was badly injured as he made a last second attempt to yank the load off of the crossing. He left the cab and was still on the running board as the train hit the trailer at 75 mph. The truck whip-sawed and threw the driver against a power pole. The locomotive tipped onto its side and threw one of the crew up on top of the prime mover, and he contacted the hot exhaust manifold.
From the report, hers is what CSX requires, and this was not done:
CSXT’s Procedures • CSXT sends an employee to the crossing. Employee contacts the train dispatcher and waits until trains are clear of the area. Employee occupies the track in his name. Employee assures that the oversize shipment traverses the crossing safely. Employee returns the use of the track to the train dispatcher.
https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Documents/intercession-intercession_overview.pdf
nevermind. Just.. nevermind.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
I see no proof that the driver was unable to make the turn due to the constraints of the road intersection. I do see that the gates have dropped onto or near to the windmill blade. The driver may have stopped because he did not want to damage the gates, or possibly damage the big blade. I am sure he reaslized that just scratches on that blade would result in enormous damage claims.
My bet is that while the truck move was obviously required to be permitted, and had escorts; the railroad was never notified of the move or asked for a crossing time slot free of trains passages.
Even if the truck did not strike other things besides the gates, or had to stop in order to avoid striking other things; the issue was that, with such a large load, there were just too many uncertain contingencies that could increase the crossing time to more than the maximum 25 seconds allowed by the warning lights and gates. So in that case, attempting to cross was a gamble that a train would not show up in a crossing timframe that might easily take 15 minutes instead of 25 seconds.
The circumatances were identical to the Intercession City, FL collision I mentioned above. In that case, it was reported that the trucking company had the duty to notify the CSX to protect the crossing during the movement of the oversize/weight load. The trucking company failed to make the notification, so CSX had no knowledge of it.
And also in that case, the truck got hung up, thus extendeing their foul time beyond the 25-second limit.
But there was an odd twist to that collision. This information comes to me via an aquaintence who was the crane operator who picked up the derailed and overturned locomotive. Others who were part of the trucking crew and CSX told him that they called CSX after the truck got hung up on the crossing. And the only reaction by the dispatcher was to tell them a passenger train was due there in about 30 minutes. Emergency action could have and should have been taken immediately to get that train stopped short of the crossing. It should have been easy. Even if the CSX could not contact the train, they had the Highway Patrol there with the excort, and they had cruisers that could light up like a Christmas tree, and probably lots of red fusees for emergency use.
That may have been the route they planned on. If they did that they would be crossing the tracks at highway speed and probably didn't worry about an extended foul time.
Anyone know where they were coming from and going to (the windmill blade, not the train)? If they were on I-10 and headed west, one more exit and they would have had a straight shot across the crossing...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Call up Luling, TX on Google Earth https://earth.google.com/web/search/luling,+tx/@29.68045555,-97.64852717,125.85115239a,870.25673999d,35y,-0h,0t,0r/data=CnUaSxJFCiUweDg2NDM0ZjIyMzI3MjYwMzU6MHhlNDJmY2I4MDE5MjE3NWFmGU-2N641rj1AIW2Oc5twaVjAKgpsdWxpbmcsIHR4GAEgASImCiQJ8h_PcuBwNEAR7x_PcuBwNMAZT07F7gaESUAhT07F7gaEScA There is NO PLACE where there is sufficient room from a parallel roadway for a oversized long vehicle such as the wind mill blade in this incident to be able to turn from the parallel roadway and cross the railroad without damaging ANYTHING that is constructed near the actual road/rail crossing.
I think Euclid alluded to the steering issue.
I live about three miles from where windmill blades coming from the south turn west onto I-80. Besides police stopping all traffic at the intersection (and making all the traffic back up with angry drivers), the rear wheels on the blade are steerable.
I can't tell from the video, but was the rear of this blade on a steerable set of wheels?
With the mess we go through everytime those blades come through here and tie up traffic when they turn, I can't imagine this happening unless the pilots, the driver, and the police all messed up.
York1 John
I asked my doctor if I gave up delicious food and all alcohol, would I live longer? He said, "No, but it will seem longer."
There was a similar crash at Intercession City, FL. In the mid-1990s. It involved a truckload of a large and heavy power plant generator. At the last turn of the road into the plant, the trailer bottomed out because the track was double and banked for a curve, so very uneven at the surface.
I once looked for references to the permitting process and the determined cause of the collision. There was no request to the railroad (CSX) for a time slot guaranteed to have no trains pass. There was no notification to CSX about the move.
The trailer hung up and they started working with jacks and blocking to raise the trailer. They called CSX and a dispatcher told them that an Amtrak train was the next train due at the crossing in about 30 minutes. Neither the moving crew nor the dispatcher said anything about holding the train even though they all knew that the trailer and generator were sitting dead center on the mainline and had no way of knowing how soon they could move it into the clear.
The train would be approaching from the south and would encounter a curve maybe ¼-mile from the crossing. So the approaching train offered no advanced view which might have giving time to slow down or even stop in time.
There was an escort crew plus the State Highway Patrol who made no attempt to flag the train even though they knew which way it would approach from and the approximate time it would arrive.
As it turned out, the train came around the curve at 75 mph after only 15 minutes instead of the advised 30 minutes. The train hit the generator and derailed, injuring the engine crew and many people on the train.
charlie hebdo diningcar Pehaps we should wait until specific info is available. It is likely to be a while until all this is determined. Not that our opinions really matter, but let's face it, someone here always blame the (unnecessary pejorative used) or driver and never the rail folks. We don't know all the data.
diningcar Pehaps we should wait until specific info is available. It is likely to be a while until all this is determined.
Pehaps we should wait until specific info is available. It is likely to be a while until all this is determined.
Not that our opinions really matter, but let's face it, someone here always blame the (unnecessary pejorative used) or driver and never the rail folks. We don't know all the data.
We know the visible data. Trucks length with the blade would not let the vehicle make the turn from the parallel road across the crossing without damaging the crossing protection. That is in the hands of the trucker. The whys of him being put in that position will be food for a novella.
The profanity laced video has been pulled from the internet, but it showed a lead pilot car. The one shot from the gas station shows two more pilot cars quickly pulling up.
Something's not quite right. A company that hauls wind blades down the highway would have experienced personel, a set procedure, a lot of expensive equipment, and they would have pilot cars front and back. If an official said the road's closed, take a different route, the truck driver doesn't just say "okie-dokie". Maybe there's some irony we're just not seeing? Perhaps the police closed the road because there was a long, awkward load permitted to come through at about that time... like a wind blade.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
BaltACD If Shadow the Cat's post is accurate - the blame for this incident is totally on the local police in changing the route through town.
If Shadow the Cat's post is accurate - the blame for this incident is totally on the local police in changing the route through town.
The tracks are set back pretty far from the intersection.
I don’t know how this may have been permitted or who the permitting authority was. But if the county highway bubba made the decision to close the original route which had a workable crossing for this move, then I would say it was Bubba’s fault. The cops were just following County Bubba’s orders. Although there may be a case to be made that the cops should not have followed Bubba’s orders. Likewise, there may be a case to be made that the truck driver should have also not followed the orders. By not following orders, I mean simply refusing to drive the new route until the railroad and the permitting authority gave their permission.
So we can’t say who is to blame. It is possible that the driver, the cops, the country bubba, or even the permitting authority are at fault for failing to discharge their responsibilities. It is also possible that the railroad is at fault for failing to adhere to a commitment to hold trains, if they had made such a commitment.
Euclid I suspect this entire procedure is exactly what is in place and used for these extra-oversize highway loads. They probably call it Track Authority For Special Highway Movements.
I suspect this entire procedure is exactly what is in place and used for these extra-oversize highway loads. They probably call it Track Authority For Special Highway Movements.
You suspect incorrectly.
An "expensive model collector"
I agree that the company transiting such a load should be required to notify the raiload(s) ahead of time so that the dispatchers can notify any trains approaching such a grade crossing will know that there is an oversize load be approaching the crossing at such and such an hour.
I am not sure what all is covered in the permitting process. Grade crossings with signals and gates are capable of offering permission to cross without any notice or preparations other than complying with the applicable driving laws.
A slightly oversize load, such as a dozer with a slightly over-width blade requiring a permit; might not require any special procedure in passing through a grade crossing. It could just be driven through as usual while obeying the traffic laws. It could pass over the crossing as quickly as other vehicles.
But consider a greatly oversize load such as the wind mill blade or one of those gigantic industrial products riding on those big multi-wheeled platforms with hydraulic steering and position shifting. This could be a load that weighs say 500-1000 tons. That might require the full road width and it would require movement with no interaction with the general road traffic. And it certainly would not allow the load to operate over a grade crossing with the contingency of a possible train arrival.
A very large load may simply be incapable of passing over the grade crossing within the allotted time of a grade crossing warning, should a train arrive. Obviously this is what occurred with the wind mill blade.
The permitting process should be required to contact the railroad ahead of time, and seek formal permission from the railroad, and be granted that permission in a formal documentation covering all times and other details. Such a certified process has no place for informal phone calls by the truck driver, upon arrival at the crossing, and notifying whoever happens to answer the phone at the railroad.
That may be fine for reporting emergencies such as a stalled vehicle that are not a specially permitted move. But for permitting an abnormally risky, oversize movement, it requires the complete elimination of any risk of a train conflict at a grade crossing. This arrangement has to be as formal and stringent as railroad train control.
Perhaps I should have been clearer. The permitting, positive route assurance, and initial scheduling for these high/wide/overlength moves would continue just as they do now; the difference is that at the timethe vehicle reaches the crossing area they phone in toget specific foul authority from the railroad. Only when that is assured in some safe, unambiguous way would the driver actually start to approach or occupy the crossing.
it would've nice to have an instant hold or emergency button (or equivalent) that would command all the rail traffic to slow, stop, or go to restricted speed until 'cleared'. It is pretty easy to see why that is unworkable. To me it's a different thing to re-confirm arrangements before any emergency can, well, begin to emerge, as it can quickly catch many problems or concerns not recognized in the initial planning... this accident apparently being a good example in a number of respects.
EuclidIf the idea of granting track authority to an oversize vehicle using a grade crossing violates someone's sense of sanctity, I would advise that they get their sense of sanctity under control.
As has been pointed out, track authority is for the track and the vehicles thereon.
If someone knows they are going to have an issue such as this, they need to contact the railroad ahead of time. By doing so, the dispatcher can issue instructions accordingly, be it to hold trains, advise them to keep an eye out, move slowly, or whatever may be necessary. Odds are a railroad supervisor will be on the scene for something like this.
This is often done for things like parades. I'm sure that Lake States RR issued an advisory for the event I just attended in Michigan, as there would be more than the usual number of folks (especially pedestrians) just at the crossings, never mind anywhere else.
On the other hand, a situation such as we are discussing here calls for calling the number on the blue placard on the crossing to advise them that the crossing is fouled. This would apply to any short notice situation, such as a stalled car or a high-centered semi. That's why the number is posted, along with specific crossing information.
adkrr64The truck driver cannot drive up and call the number on the blue sign and ask for foul time.
I am not suggesting that. I agree that it would have to be a much more formal process. The request and granting of permission would need to be established in a certified record.
It would not be done by the truck driver calling a phone number on a sign or by a simple phone call and verbal discussion. Instead, it would be done by the permitting authority probably hours or days prior to the date of use.
I think it might require spotters on the ground, including railroad employees to make sure nothing about the crossing has been damaged in the oversize move, and to make sure that the terms of the permission are complied with.
I'm not sure there can't be a procedure to request foul permission by calling 'a number on a blue sign'. There are gated crossings in Britain that require calling 'control' and getting permission to cross -- after any nearby rail traffic has cleared without delay -- with the understanding that other trains approaching will know to watch, go to restricted speed, etc. until the vehicle is fully across.
Probably a good time to check permitting, GPS and GIS data, etc. before the vehicle comes into foul or gets 'surprised', too.
This would apply by regulation to vehicles above a certain size and weight, or needing a special movement permit, but could easily be applied to buses now required to 'stop and open the door' or some other less-than-fully-effective thing.
In this age of nearly pervasive 3G or better wireless, I think it would be easy to assure cell-phone connectivity at any potentially dangerous crossing... and to require that drivers, even if forbidden to use devices while moving, have one that can be activated and used for these purposes.
To C.O.'s point, "track authority" in RR realm usually means authority for train or piece of equipment (like a high-rail vehicle) to occupy and use some defined section of track. Under NORAC rules, in a situation like this, where something was going to foul (but not actually use) the track for some limited period of time, the dispatcher would give "foul time". It might seem like hair splitting on the terminology, since getting track authority or getting foul time requires someone to get that permission from the dispatcher. But there are different procedures involved between the two (at least in NORAC) that affect what and how the dispatcher gives the permission.
Also, whoever calls the dispatcher needs to be a rules qualified individual, presumably an employee of the railroad. The truck driver cannot drive up and call the number on the blue sign and ask for foul time.
Convicted One Euclid Why would they take exception to my use of the term, “track authority?” What else would you call it? Well, I have no way of knowing on absolute terms what is on the minds of others. But think back to the discussions we've had in times past where a civil authority tried to demand a locomotive engineer's license, or where a community has tried to implement blocked crossing penalties.......there has always been a "stay in your lane" mentality here whenever civil authority attempts to exercise influence over the sacred ground between the rails. Isn't "track authority" part of the official RR lexicon? Expanding that to include civil involvement might violate someone's sense of sanctity....that's what I was thinking anyway. Not that I really care.
Euclid Why would they take exception to my use of the term, “track authority?” What else would you call it?
Well, I have no way of knowing on absolute terms what is on the minds of others. But think back to the discussions we've had in times past where a civil authority tried to demand a locomotive engineer's license, or where a community has tried to implement blocked crossing penalties.......there has always been a "stay in your lane" mentality here whenever civil authority attempts to exercise influence over the sacred ground between the rails.
Isn't "track authority" part of the official RR lexicon? Expanding that to include civil involvement might violate someone's sense of sanctity....that's what I was thinking anyway.
Not that I really care.
I understand. Track Authority may be part of the official RR lexicon, but that does not mean that they own the phrase. Also, they do define it as being granted to vehicles that may be working on their track or have some need in relation to their track. It does not stipulate who has to own the vehicle. And the process of aquiring track authority to for a special vehicle using a grade crossing does require asking the railroad for it, and they have the right to grant it or refuse it entirely on their terms.
If the idea of granting track authority to an oversize vehicle using a grade crossing violates someone's sense of sanctity, I would advise that they get their sense of sanctity under control.
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